Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen needed to be Reminded by Nechung?

[michaela]

Dear Forum Readers

One of the arguments made by DS proponents are DS's previous incarnations have been an enlightened beings.  So it is impossible for DS to be born as a Gyalpo Spirit through the force of Karma.  To say that, is implying that enlightened beings can degenerate to such as low state, which is impossible.

From what I learned, the characteristics of enlightened beings is they are omnicients and not controled by by the force of karma.

If he was an enlightened being, Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen should be omnicient, can see through the past and future lives of himself and other beings.  So why he needed to be reminded by a spirit like Nechung that he had promised to rise as a unique Dharma Protector through eating the rice blessed by Nechung, the spirit?

 

[jeremyg]

Maybe a story as such needed to be created in order for more people to learn about Dorje Shugden. Of course an enlightened being does not need to be reminded. But perhaps for the sake of benefitting more people, it was decided that making a story of this kind would attract more people to read and learn about Dorje Shugden. After all who doesn't like a good story. Better than just saying that Dorje exists, and he has always been the same. That would just be boring. Now with a story a lineage is created. More lamas can be leaned about. People benefit more. That is the reason I can see. Im sure others will have other various reasons as well. I am not saying I am right in what I said. Just what I think, and I hope it makes sense.

[Tenzin Gyatso]

If he was an enlightened being, Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen should be omnicient, can see through the past and future lives of himself and other beings.  So why he needed to be reminded by a spirit like Nechung that he had promised to rise as a unique Dharma Protector through eating the rice blessed by Nechung, the spirit?

That is very simple and straightforward because Tulku Drakpa was not enlightened. He had a wrong motivation, anger and became a raging evil spirit. As the HHDL said. Also all those who worship him destroy their roots of virtues. Sounds harsh, but what other explanation can there be.

[Zach]

If he was an enlightened being, Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen should be omnicient, can see through the past and future lives of himself and other beings.  So why he needed to be reminded by a spirit like Nechung that he had promised to rise as a unique Dharma Protector through eating the rice blessed by Nechung, the spirit?

That is very simple and straightforward because Tulku Drakpa was not enlightened. He had a wrong motivation, anger and became a raging evil spirit. As the HHDL said. Also all those who worship him destroy their roots of virtues. Sounds harsh, but what other explanation can there be.

This is completley wrong according to our lineage Guru Trijang Rinpoche and historical sources.

Furthermore, the definitive point of view, that these holy beings [previous incarnations of Dorje Shugden] were already fully enlightened innumerable ages ago, is clear if one examines the accounts of their lives, and if one were to say that a fully enlightened being could take birth as an ordinary gyalpo or tsen spirit, then one would be asserting that degeneration is possible from the state of full enlightenment or that someone could be both fully enlightened and an ordinary preta at the same time! Or else one would have to say that the accounts of those great beings’ lives are worthless. A mountain of absurd consequences, previously non-existent distorted ideas, would have to be accepted. (Trijang Rinpoche, Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors, p. 9, circa 1967)

If you havent read Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors Tenzin which is available free to read here I would encourage you to do so for arguements sake so you can be better informed of what our opinions are and the problems we have in particular with His Holiness line of thought on such issues.

[Dolce Vita]

Personal I think an enlightened being need not to be reminded, but since in Gelug lineage, humility is one of the virtue the practitioners practise, therefore it was not quite right to show that they have superpower by declaring themselves as someone in their previous lives.

Another point that I see is that the enlightened beings (Buddhas) have the power to see very far, they know that people in our time need all these dramas to believe. Therefore, with the motivations to benefit others they sometimes created dramas or even appeared to be the bad guy. This is how compassionate they can be.

[michaela]

Dolce Vita

Considering the situation, what is the use of pretending not to remember?   Even music delighting oceans of protectors said that Nechung gave Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen something to help him to remember.

[Zach]

Dolce Vita

Considering the situation, what is the use of pretending not to remember?   Even music delighting oceans of protectors said that Nechung gave Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen something to help him to remember.

I have often wondered whether reincarnate masters gain some afflictive obscurations because of contaminated aggregates they choose to be in.

[yontenjamyang]

If he was an enlightened being, Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen should be omnicient, can see through the past and future lives of himself and other beings.  So why he needed to be reminded by a spirit like Nechung that he had promised to rise as a unique Dharma Protector through eating the rice blessed by Nechung, the spirit?

That is very simple and straightforward because Tulku Drakpa was not enlightened. He had a wrong motivation, anger and became a raging evil spirit. As the HHDL said. Also all those who worship him destroy their roots of virtues. Sounds harsh, but what other explanation can there be.

If that is the case then the Dalai Lama is also not enlightened and you will be the first to refute this. This is because the Dalai Lama also needs advise from the protector Nechung.

My understanding is that Enlightened being is human form ie Nirmanakaya form are first and foremost a human in form. The mind is enlightened but the body is still subjected to pain, aging and death dependent on the collective karma of the world at large and the disciples in particular. It is proof that that being has a bodhi mind with great compassion because he suffers the pain of a human rebirth for sentient beings.

It is because this collective karma the he needs to be reminded by Nechung.

Anyway, would Nechung remind us that we promised to arise an Enlightened protector? No? Why?

[DharmaDefender]

Whoever says that it was because Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen is a spirit is not speaking logically.

In case youve all forgotten theres such a thing as humility in the Gelugpa tradition and in fact, in all Buddhist traditions. If Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen remembered instantly, how is that showing humility? Even Shakyamuni himself had to be requested to teach by the Hindu gods...so was HE a raging spirit who forgot his vows of compassion to benefit all sentient beings? Come on.

[Barzin]

My understanding is that Enlightened being is human form ie Nirmanakaya form are first and foremost a human in form. The mind is enlightened but the body is still subjected to pain, aging and death dependent on the collective karma of the world at large and the disciples in particular. It is proof that that being has a bodhi mind with great compassion because he suffers the pain of a human rebirth for sentient beings.

I really what Yonten Jamyang wrote, that gave me a whole new angle to look at things.  I agree that because they are compassionate enough to take rebirth in a human form, therefore they are subject to pain and death.  But it doesn't mean their mind is not enlightened. And most of all, there are definitely not attached to things in samsara.  Therefore whatever they manifest even the way they talk, act, do are designed with compassionate thoughts and motivations for the benefits of beings.  They might act like us, be with us and do the things that we samsara people do doesn't mean that they are like us.  Like I said, it is just a way they manifested to get closer to us so they can relate Buddha's teachings to us because we are beings with great attachments that need artificial ideas/things to seduce us into dharma.

Just like the Shugden story, the ban, it not only promotes Shugden, HHDL, dharma, Lamas, Oracles, Tibetan Buddhism as a whole?  So even TTG ate the rice or needed to be reminded; personally i don't think so it is at all important.  The ultimate reason of all is to spread dharma afterall.  Definitely the highly attained beings and the lamas are working hand in hand for a greater picture.  We can't see we can't tell, we can only guess...  It is another proof that TTG is enlightened, that is why he is a part of the saga and not you and me.  In other words, the saga continues which means they all have a role to play.  Let's just wait for the wonderful news.

[negra orquida]

Maybe this situation (re Nechung having to "remind" Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen, who is enlightened) is similar to how Maitreya/Manjushri Buddha, at the time of Buddha Shakyamuni, manifested as a disciple to ask Buddha Shakyamuni the "right" questions so that all the disciples will benefit?  Why would Buddha Shakyamuni need someone to prompt him to teach any Dharma topic?

Enlightened beings / Buddhas work in mysterious ways which we short sighted people would never be able to comprehend.  Found this from buddhanet.net which I thought is relevant to us:

Disciple: Dear Manjusri Bodhisattva, it is said that you are in Truth a Buddha already, aeons ago. Why then, are you still a Bodhisattva now, aeons later?

Manjusri: Dear Disciple, how many more times do you have to ask this question?

Where's the punchline? Are we not sometimes like the disciple? Do we not keep asking irrelevant questions that keep us from attaining Enlightenment? Maybe the disciple had asked the same question time and again life after life - which shows his ignorance, not being on the right track to Enlightenment. Manjusri Bodhisattva answers in the form of a question - which shows that it is out of Compassion that He chose to manifest as a Bodhisattva for as long as it takes, as long as we ask the wrong questions, to guide us to the right path to Enlightenment!

[Tenzin K]

I have heard the same as what negra mentioned.

Even during Buddha Shakyamuni, has to create the “numerous condition” to spread the dharma to the lay people. This is just the same scenario for Nechung to remind Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen on his promises. Same method but used at different time for different people but for the same reason, to bring dharma closer to the lay people for their practice ultimately to enlightenment. Due to the degenerate time and so much negative karma accumulated by the people, the enlightened being have never stop to find ways to benefit the people. This great being just keeps on taking their rebirth life after life for the same reason but to face different challenges. Their motivation consistency can never be question.

I’m grateful to these great beings and should give deep respect and susupport for their work which ultimately for the benefits of the large people out there.   

[Big Uncle]

Maybe this situation (re Nechung having to "remind" Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen, who is enlightened) is similar to how Maitreya/Manjushri Buddha, at the time of Buddha Shakyamuni, manifested as a disciple to ask Buddha Shakyamuni the "right" questions so that all the disciples will benefit?  Why would Buddha Shakyamuni need someone to prompt him to teach any Dharma topic?

Enlightened beings / Buddhas work in mysterious ways which we short sighted people would never be able to comprehend.  Found this from buddhanet.net which I thought is relevant to us:

Disciple: Dear Manjusri Bodhisattva, it is said that you are in Truth a Buddha already, aeons ago. Why then, are you still a Bodhisattva now, aeons later?

Manjusri: Dear Disciple, how many more times do you have to ask this question?

Where's the punchline? Are we not sometimes like the disciple? Do we not keep asking irrelevant questions that keep us from attaining Enlightenment? Maybe the disciple had asked the same question time and again life after life - which shows his ignorance, not being on the right track to Enlightenment. Manjusri Bodhisattva answers in the form of a question - which shows that it is out of Compassion that He chose to manifest as a Bodhisattva for as long as it takes, as long as we ask the wrong questions, to guide us to the right path to Enlightenment!

Dear negra,
You are right with saying that because in the 50 Stanzas of Guru Devotion, the Lama or Guru should only teach when when the student has requested sincerely and is ready. Therefore, a cause must be created for the teacher to expound the Dharma. I think this is related to what you are saying but i don't fully agree that it is Buddha and enlightened Beings working in mysterious ways.

I think it is just so that a cause is created for us to receive the Dharma. If no cause is created, the Dharma could still be taught but we may not have the karma to receive the teachings. Hence, we always have to serve our Lama and ensure we create good enough causes for him to expound the vast store of his Dharma to us.

[hope rainbow]

Dear Forum Readers
One of the arguments made by DS proponents are DS's previous incarnations have been an enlightened beings.  So it is impossible for DS to be born as a Gyalpo Spirit through the force of Karma.  To say that, is implying that enlightened beings can degenerate to such as low state, which is impossible.
From what I learned, the characteristics of enlightened beings is they are omnicients and not controled by by the force of karma.
If he was an enlightened being, Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen should be omnicient, can see through the past and future lives of himself and other beings.  So why he needed to be reminded by a spirit like Nechung that he had promised to rise as a unique Dharma Protector through eating the rice blessed by Nechung, the spirit?

Now, what I'm going to say may seem far-strecthed to some on the forum, but, Michaella, you sure do have a Guru (I wish you do anyway), so you'll agree with me on that.

Has your Guru ever "played" like he forgot something, like he did not know something, or even like he did not know one Dharma topic?
My Guru once was giving a lecture and on one topic that obviously He knows, He said: "I have no idea", this surpised us all present that day.
It was not that He did not know, it was that we (His students) did not create the causes for our Guru to teach us on that topic.

There are other examples where a Guru may "play", in order to test our reactions, to gage our mind, to make us react in ways that produce a mindset with which He can help us.

So, one might say, then... does it mean that forgetful people, clumsy people and all could all be enlightened Gurus? No, for we must look at the large picture, not at the detail.

If the large picture is not one of clumsiness and stupidity, but it shows that the Guru has students that better themselves, students that gain realizations, if we can see the bodhicitta vows in the actions of the Guru, if the Guru is a validated recognized tulkus life-time after life-time, if there is an established and verified lineage, if the Guru teaches the Dharma, if He leads by example...
Then one day if the Guru appears "clumsy" or "ignorant", surely there is a purpose for that.

As students of Lamas, we must create causes for receiving teachings, for receiving initiations or for a Protector to arise. Nechung has strong karmic connection with Tulku Drakpa Gyaelsten, it is obvious, and so he "reminded" TDG as a way to request on behalf of all of us.

Not all will agree, and some will prefer to extract a detail out of context and make it the whole by distortion, so as to please their view.
I say: please look at the whole and then look at the details, don't miss out! Don't miss out!

[Ensapa]

Personally, the reminder is something that is much deeper than just a reminder. It is actually a wake up call to the people of Tibet at that time that if they do not appreciate this Lama, he will leave them and there will be a lot of unhappiness and disaster. It was more of a warning and a sign for Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen's students to do long life prayers and change themselves but it is pretty obvious they did not. The reminder was not for Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen but for his students.

A Lama can stay, leave or manifest in a different way depending on the students and situation. if the situation is not conducive, he or she will simply manifest elsewhere. Most lamas will indicate that they will be leaving as there is no hope for them to transform or benefit the students more, either through a disease, or prophecy, or perhaps the Lama suddenly disappearing, before the lama actually passes away. In the case of Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen, his sign was the protector saying that he has to do Dharma work in the form of a Dharmapala and the students lose a chance.

So it is more of a warning than anything else. How can it be that a high lama like him does not have clairvoyance? perhaps he really loved his students back then and taking the form of a Dharma protector was really his last option but his students disappointed him so he took the form of a Dharma protector to benefit many more people…because his students did not appreciate him.

Nechung and other oracles will always work for the Lama and will always assist the lama in whatever way or form. They will be like the actors on the stage, repeating the Lama's advice to the students but in a more creative way. If the students do not listen…they lose out..