Incorrect Vision in Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen's Secret Biography

[michaela]

Dear Forum Reader

In Music Delighting Oceans of Protectors, section MAGICAL LUTE’S MELODY – TULKU DRAGPA GYALTSEN’S VISIONARY WRITINGS: A SECRET BIOGRAPHY page 56, it is said that: "When I think about the total number of Buddhas, forty?nine, I believe it means I will definitely live to forty?nine years of age."  In reality, Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen was murdered when he was 38 years old (11 years younger than his vision).  What is the reason for discrepancies between between the vision and actual historical account?  If he was to be murdered, should it appeared in the vision as well?

After all, long before than, at the time of Duldzin Dragpa Gyaltsen, Nechung, the unenlightened protector, has said that he will remind the Lama when the time come.  So Nechung knows that the time would come when Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen was 38 years of age long long ago.  Could it be, that Nechung's prediction is much more accurate than Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen's vision?

[WisdomBeing]

Dear Michaela

I do believe that prophecies/visions will change according to the changing times, circumstances and karma of the people. I don’t think that it was the case of whether Nechung’s prophecy or Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen’s vision was more accurate. There could be many possibilities; such as perhaps Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen did not wish to disclose exactly when he was going to pass on.

Also, it is possible that if Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen was meant to live to 49, perhaps the karma of Tibet needed him to become a Protector earlier. In any case, Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen actually knew when he was going to pass on because he was the one who told the 5th Dalai Lama’s assistants how to kill him, so he was always in control.

[michaela]

Dear Wisdom Being

Though I agree with you that prophecies can change depending on circumstances.  What is intriguing for me is the following facts from the historical accounts:
-  Nechung reminded Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen about his promise to be a Dharma protector and said that he will help create the situation.  Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen does not appear to remember this promise before eating the bless rice.  Only then, he revealed the manner that could kill him.

So because he has this account when he was very young - I suppose before meeting Nechung via Oracle, it seems that he did not remember when he will die.

Maybe if I re-phrase the question.  Why Nechung, an unenlightened protector, remembers more or knows more than Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen who has been enlightened many lifetimes ago?   

[harrynephew]

Dear Wisdom Being

Though I agree with you that prophecies can change depending on circumstances.  What is intriguing for me is the following facts from the historical accounts:
-  Nechung reminded Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen about his promise to be a Dharma protector and said that he will help create the situation.  Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen does not appear to remember this promise before eating the bless rice.  Only then, he revealed the manner that could kill him.

So because he has this account when he was very young - I suppose before meeting Nechung via Oracle, it seems that he did not remember when he will die.

Maybe if I re-phrase the question.  Why Nechung, an unenlightened protector, remembers more or knows more than Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen who has been enlightened many lifetimes ago?

Heya Michaela,

I second what Wisdom Being had said earlier and wanna add on. I am sure Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen is very aware of the vows and wishes which he had made in a previous life and there hasn't been anyone to activate the causes for this wish to come about at that time. Nechung was the factor for this wish to come true and through nourishing of this sacred wish, Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen reaffirms his wish at that life time and continued to make prayers for fruition.

When you present the facts as such, it seems like Nechung does know better/more than the then young tulku. But hey, look who's in charge? The Lama or the worldly protector? Of course it is the Lama's wish and will for the worldly deity to collect merits and thus display this 'drama' in such a manner.

This brings me to answer your question about Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen's life span. Indeed he had the auspicious dream that he would live to the age of 49 but died at 38 instead. Who determined Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen's death? The Lama or the Buddhas?

In the text "Offering to the Supreme Guides" it states such:

"Higher than all Buddhas of the three times and ten directions,
Just one single hair from a pore of yours
Is praised as a field of merit for us -
O Compassionate Refuge Protector – to you I request!"

[Big Uncle]

Dear Wisdom Being

Though I agree with you that prophecies can change depending on circumstances.  What is intriguing for me is the following facts from the historical accounts:
-  Nechung reminded Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen about his promise to be a Dharma protector and said that he will help create the situation.  Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen does not appear to remember this promise before eating the bless rice.  Only then, he revealed the manner that could kill him.

So because he has this account when he was very young - I suppose before meeting Nechung via Oracle, it seems that he did not remember when he will die.

Maybe if I re-phrase the question.  Why Nechung, an unenlightened protector, remembers more or knows more than Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen who has been enlightened many lifetimes ago?   

The answer is very simple. Duldzin Drakpa Gyeltsen, who made the promise, passed away and chose to take rebirth as Panchen Sonam Drakpa. Then, Panchen Sonam Drakpa who lived an entire lifetime of benefitting others, passed away and took rebirth as Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen. But through all these years, Nechung didn't pass away yet.

So, of course he remembers and it is not that Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen don't remember, he remembers. That was just what he manifested. Beings like him don't forget. How can he have perfect knowledge of Buddhadharma and have total control of his death, forget promises. Hence, it is just a manifestation, perhaps for Nechung to request and collect the necessary cause and merit to do his work.

[Tenzin Gyatso]

Well this is what the HHDL has been saying all along. Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen had died and had anger when he died. And he became an negative raging spirit due to his anger. So I am not surprised during his lifetime he had inaccurate visions. Everything kinda tallies.  Doesn't that explain everything why Shugden is negative? Straightforward and clear as to why we should not worship or connect to Shugden or rather Dhogyal.

[Big Uncle]

Well this is what the HHDL has been saying all along. Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen had died and had anger when he died. And he became an negative raging spirit due to his anger. So I am not surprised during his lifetime he had inaccurate visions. Everything kinda tallies.  Doesn't that explain everything why Shugden is negative? Straightforward and clear as to why we should not worship or connect to Shugden or rather Dhogyal.

That is short-sighted way to look at things and it does not tally. Are you saying the Dalai Lama is right that Dorje Shugden is evil and the Dalai Lama's Guru, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche is wrong. Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche is wrong and innumerable other High Lamas are wrong because they say Dorje Shugden is Manjushri. If they are wrong, then don't take teachings from the Dalai Lama anyway because his teachings come from the very same Gurus that say Dorje Shugden is Manjushri.

[Tenzin Gyatso]

Well this is what the HHDL has been saying all along. Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen had died and had anger when he died. And he became an negative raging spirit due to his anger. So I am not surprised during his lifetime he had inaccurate visions. Everything kinda tallies.  Doesn't that explain everything why Shugden is negative? Straightforward and clear as to why we should not worship or connect to Shugden or rather Dhogyal.

That is short-sighted way to look at things and it does not tally. Are you saying the Dalai Lama is right that Dorje Shugden is evil and the Dalai Lama's Guru, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche is wrong. Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche is wrong and innumerable other High Lamas are wrong because they say Dorje Shugden is Manjushri. If they are wrong, then don't take teachings from the Dalai Lama anyway because his teachings come from the very same Gurus that say Dorje Shugden is Manjushri.

Well everyone can be wrong. Trijang Rinpoche, HHDL, Pabongka and the whole bunch of humans. But HHDL is much more effective in spreading dharma to the whole planet. So HHDL's line of thinking is more effective than his old teachers of the past? I am talking about effectiveness.

So what worked in the past may not work now. Shugden may have been ok in the past but he has been found out now so not effective for the present.

[Ensapa]

Well this is what the HHDL has been saying all along. Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen had died and had anger when he died. And he became an negative raging spirit due to his anger. So I am not surprised during his lifetime he had inaccurate visions. Everything kinda tallies.  Doesn't that explain everything why Shugden is negative? Straightforward and clear as to why we should not worship or connect to Shugden or rather Dhogyal.

That is short-sighted way to look at things and it does not tally. Are you saying the Dalai Lama is right that Dorje Shugden is evil and the Dalai Lama's Guru, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche is wrong. Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche is wrong and innumerable other High Lamas are wrong because they say Dorje Shugden is Manjushri. If they are wrong, then don't take teachings from the Dalai Lama anyway because his teachings come from the very same Gurus that say Dorje Shugden is Manjushri.

Well everyone can be wrong. Trijang Rinpoche, HHDL, Pabongka and the whole bunch of humans. But HHDL is much more effective in spreading dharma to the whole planet. So HHDL's line of thinking is more effective than his old teachers of the past? I am talking about effectiveness.

So what worked in the past may not work now. Shugden may have been ok in the past but he has been found out now so not effective for the present.

you forgot one very important point: If it was not for Pabongkha Rinpoche and Trijang Rinpoche who taught the Dalai Lama, he would not have been as successful as he is today. If a student has a bad teacher, how good can the student be as well as he is learning all the wrong things? Also, by saying that those two Rinpoches are wrong, you are saying that every single Gelug lama on the planet is wrong, because every single Gelug lama that we have now descend either directly or indirectly from those two.

I love your presence in this forum as it does what people who think the ban is correct are....so far you have not used any logic to strengthen your point. That says a lot. hehehe.

[Tenzin Gyatso]

Well this is what the HHDL has been saying all along. Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen had died and had anger when he died. And he became an negative raging spirit due to his anger. So I am not surprised during his lifetime he had inaccurate visions. Everything kinda tallies.  Doesn't that explain everything why Shugden is negative? Straightforward and clear as to why we should not worship or connect to Shugden or rather Dhogyal.

That is short-sighted way to look at things and it does not tally. Are you saying the Dalai Lama is right that Dorje Shugden is evil and the Dalai Lama's Guru, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche is wrong. Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche is wrong and innumerable other High Lamas are wrong because they say Dorje Shugden is Manjushri. If they are wrong, then don't take teachings from the Dalai Lama anyway because his teachings come from the very same Gurus that say Dorje Shugden is Manjushri.

Well everyone can be wrong. Trijang Rinpoche, HHDL, Pabongka and the whole bunch of humans. But HHDL is much more effective in spreading dharma to the whole planet. So HHDL's line of thinking is more effective than his old teachers of the past? I am talking about effectiveness.

So what worked in the past may not work now. Shugden may have been ok in the past but he has been found out now so not effective for the present.

you forgot one very important point: If it was not for Pabongkha Rinpoche and Trijang Rinpoche who taught the Dalai Lama, he would not have been as successful as he is today. If a student has a bad teacher, how good can the student be as well as he is learning all the wrong things? Also, by saying that those two Rinpoches are wrong, you are saying that every single Gelug lama on the planet is wrong, because every single Gelug lama that we have now descend either directly or indirectly from those two.

I love your presence in this forum as it does what people who think the ban is correct are....so far you have not used any logic to strengthen your point. That says a lot. hehehe.

Ultimately it becomes the classic chicken and egg scenario of which one came first. Yes the Dalai Lama's gurus practiced Shugden. During their time there was Tibetan unity so Shugden was tolerated. Now during modern times when Tibetans are scattered and unity is necessary, disallowing the worship of this spirit is more than necessary.

When the HHDL gave up his practice, he told Trijang Rinpoche and Trijang Rinpoche was ok with it. Doesn't that say alot? I think it does. By HHDL rejecting the practice, Trijang Rinpoche should know it is like an omen of things to come.

Since Trijang Rinpoche gave permission for Dalai Lama not to practice, it is indirectly allowing the HHDL's students also not to practice.

Since the worship of Shugden has stopped in Dharamsala nothing negative has happened. No bad omens. The Dalai Lama is fine and healthy. If the HHDL is creating the causes for so many to break their samayas, shouldn't the heavy karma of breaking samayas for millions bring it's effects already? Why is HHDL not showing any signs of karmic retribution for breaking up the samayas of so called millions who gave up Shugden. So many monks and laypersons have so called gone against their lamas and rejected Shugden. This is suppose to be real heavy samaya karma. Well I don't see this karma affecting HHDL at all. He is going super strong still and still speaking out against the spirit Shugden. That itself says alot. Don't you all think?

Stop practicing Shugden already. Don't be stubborn. The facts are clear. I mean take up on of the other protectors available. What's the difference. You need a protector, just take another one that is beyond doubt of being a spirit. Safer for everyone.


 

[michaela]

Dear Tenzin Gyatso

You are very right in saying that nothing bad has happened to HHDL for banning Shugden Practice.  But you see, nothing bad has happened as well for High Lama like Geshe Kelsang Gyatso for practicing Shugden.  His center and Dharma work has spread around the world.  In addition, the ban promote Shugden even more, even more than what would have been if there is no ban at all.

Perhaps all of these things have been staged to actually recruit more Shugden practitioners?  In this degenerated times, we tend to resist when our Lama advise us the traditional way.  But with this ban, many people who otherwise would not have been attracted to Dorje Shugden actually became a DS practitioners.

Another thing for you to contemplate

[Vajraprotector]

Now during modern times when Tibetans are scattered and unity is necessary, disallowing the worship of this spirit is more than necessary.

- How is disallowing the worship of this spirit strengthen unity? On the micro level, it causes families, monasteries (sangha!) and Tibetans to split. It also causes discomfort between the regions who have strong worship of Shugden, for example in Chamdo, Chatring and so on in Kham, and those who do not.

Since the worship of Shugden has stopped in Dharamsala nothing negative has happened. No bad omens. The Dalai Lama is fine and healthy. If the HHDL is creating the causes for so many to break their samayas, shouldn't the heavy karma of breaking samayas for millions bring it's effects already? Why is HHDL not showing any signs of karmic retribution for breaking up the samayas of so called millions who gave up Shugden. So many monks and laypersons have so called gone against their lamas and rejected Shugden. This is suppose to be real heavy samaya karma. Well I don't see this karma affecting HHDL at all. He is going super strong still and still speaking out against the spirit Shugden. That itself says alot. Don't you all think?

- Karmic retribution doesn't happen overnight. Also, if His Holiness suffers health problems, I do not think the CTA/ Mr. Chhime Chhoekyapa would publicise it far and wide as the Chinese are watching.

Since Trijang Rinpoche gave permission for Dalai Lama not to practice, it is indirectly allowing the HHDL's students also not to practice...

Stop practicing Shugden already. Don't be stubborn. The facts are clear. I mean take up on of the other protectors available. What's the difference. You need a protector, just take another one that is beyond doubt of being a spirit. Safer for everyone.

- Why is it then that His Holiness the Dalai Lama said Trijang Rinpoche can practice?

Dalai Lama says Trijang Rinpoche can practise Dorje Shugden	Small | Large

[triesa]

Ultimately it becomes the classic chicken and egg scenario of which one came first. Yes the Dalai Lama's gurus practiced Shugden. During their time there was Tibetan unity so Shugden was tolerated. Now during modern times when Tibetans are scattered and unity is necessary, disallowing the worship of this spirit is more than necessary.

When the HHDL gave up his practice, he told Trijang Rinpoche and Trijang Rinpoche was ok with it. Doesn't that say alot? I think it does. By HHDL rejecting the practice, Trijang Rinpoche should know it is like an omen of things to come.

Since Trijang Rinpoche gave permission for Dalai Lama not to practice, it is indirectly allowing the HHDL's students also not to practice.

Since the worship of Shugden has stopped in Dharamsala nothing negative has happened. No bad omens. The Dalai Lama is fine and healthy. If the HHDL is creating the causes for so many to break their samayas, shouldn't the heavy karma of breaking samayas for millions bring it's effects already? Why is HHDL not showing any signs of karmic retribution for breaking up the samayas of so called millions who gave up Shugden. So many monks and laypersons have so called gone against their lamas and rejected Shugden. This is suppose to be real heavy samaya karma. Well I don't see this karma affecting HHDL at all. He is going super strong still and still speaking out against the spirit Shugden. That itself says alot. Don't you all think?

Stop practicing Shugden already. Don't be stubborn. The facts are clear. I mean take up on of the other protectors available. What's the difference. You need a protector, just take another one that is beyond doubt of being a spirit. Safer for everyone.


 

Hi Tenzin Gyaltso

1) To unite Tibetans in this mordern times call for even more religious freedom, contrary to what you said that calling for unity for the scattered Tibetans around the world, the worship for Dorje Shugden should not be allowed. How to unite all the scattered Tibetans around the world if CTA segregates and discriminates part of their own people because of their beliefs or practice?

2) HE Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche had already prophesized that there would come a time when there seemed to be a conflict between the Dalai Lama and DS  and asked the practitioners to be patient and not to loose faith in both Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden. So HE Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche did have foresight in this matter.

I dont think the Current Trijang Rinpoche gave permission for the Dalai Lama not to practice DS, in fact Trijang Rinpoche left the monastery and become a layperson so as to avoid any conflict with the DL and continues his practice. So I do not agree with you saying that Tirjang Rinpoche is Ok with Dalai Lama not practising DS. If he is ok, why did he have to leave the monastery and continue to practise DS secretly as a layperson?

3) The worship of Shugden has not stopped, (as a matter of fact, it is growing, even the Dalai Lama has mentioned it in his recent talk) and there are also no bad omens to Dalai Lama's health. So the claims that practising DS will harm Dalai Lama is totally illogical and ungrounded. In fact, I am like you, very happy to know that the Dalai Lama is going "super strong" as you said.

4) practising or not practising DS is up to the individual. If you do not want to practise, it is fine. But please also look at the reasons why there are more and more DS practitioners now. If you still have doubts that DS is a spirit, then Dalai Lama, being Chenrezig, could have subdued him by just conducting a ritual? Since DS can not be subdued, it says a lot, don't you think?

[kurava]

Dear Wisdom Being

Though I agree with you that prophecies can change depending on circumstances.  What is intriguing for me is the following facts from the historical accounts:
-  Nechung reminded Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen about his promise to be a Dharma protector and said that he will help create the situation.  Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen does not appear to remember this promise before eating the bless rice.  Only then, he revealed the manner that could kill him.

So because he has this account when he was very young - I suppose before meeting Nechung via Oracle, it seems that he did not remember when he will die.

Maybe if I re-phrase the question.  Why Nechung, an unenlightened protector, remembers more or knows more than Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen who has been enlightened many lifetimes ago?

Dear Michaela,

I agree with Big Uncle that one of the possible reasons could be - DDG had taken subsequent rebirths while Nechung had not taken any rebirths from the time of DDG .

Another point to contemplate - could TDG  had manifested forgetfulness to test Nechung ? We know how all these highly attained beings use skillful means to test and benefit others all the time 

Yes, one of the trainings from walking the spiritual path is to keep our mind open, flexible and pliable. Things are not meant to be always fixed and static. Previously scientists thought that light travels in a straight line till Einstein proved that light curves if we check the path of light long enough.

We can quite safely say that nothing as perceived by our ordinary mind is always what it appears to be.

[Klein]

Dear Wisdom Being

Though I agree with you that prophecies can change depending on circumstances.  What is intriguing for me is the following facts from the historical accounts:
-  Nechung reminded Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen about his promise to be a Dharma protector and said that he will help create the situation.  Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen does not appear to remember this promise before eating the bless rice.  Only then, he revealed the manner that could kill him.

So because he has this account when he was very young - I suppose before meeting Nechung via Oracle, it seems that he did not remember when he will die.

Maybe if I re-phrase the question.  Why Nechung, an unenlightened protector, remembers more or knows more than Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen who has been enlightened many lifetimes ago?

Dear michaela,
There are many reasons why Enlightened beings contradict themselves again and again. Perhaps, out of humility, Tulku Dragpa Geyltsen manifests as "not remembering"?

Just like HH The Dalai Lama who is the emanation of Avalokiteshvara can be propitiating the practice of Dorje Shugden for a few lifetimes. And suddenly, declares that Dorje Shugden is an evil demon. Is HH telling us that an evil demon can deceive an Enlightened being like himself? Doesn't make sense right?

My point is, I'm sure Tulku Dragpa Geyltsen has very good reasons for "not remembering". Anyways, this is not very important for us as it will not have great impact on our spiritual practice.