Author Topic: I feel HH Dalai Lama is correct in speaking against Shugden  (Read 38573 times)

dslucky

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 14
Re: I feel HH Dalai Lama is correct in speaking against Shugden
« Reply #45 on: February 21, 2012, 09:23:25 AM »
Hi Tenzin Gyatso...

The very fact that you're on this forum shows that you have made the right decision and not a mistake...simply because being in this forum, whether or not you're pro Dorje Shugden or anti Dorje Shugden you will gain knowledge. Definitely not a mistake...

By reading your postings I believe you have read up a lot on this forum and website. Congratulations because when the ban is lifted, these knowledge you have gained will help you to understand and realize better and most importantly to clear your doubts on Dorje Shugden.

When the ban is lifted you can proudly tell all your friends you have been on this forum to support the practice of Dorje Shugden, though indirectly.  Your 'profound' arguments had led to more debates which is equal to a better understanding of this Dorje Shugden issue. Reading this thread has strengthen my faith in Dorje Shugden as a rightful protector thanks to you.

Thank you also for bringing up that Manjushri is a Buddha. Manjushri = Budhha, Dorje Shugden = Manjushri hence Dorje Shugden = BUDDHA! A simple equation like that you should be able to comprehend right?

You mentioned that Trijang Rinpoche gave permission to the Dalai Lama not to practice Dorje Shugden. Did you also know the Dalai Lama said that the current Trijang Rinpoche can practice Dorje Shugden? Why would Dalai Lama want to harm his Guru if he knew Dorje Shugden is harmful but still allow his Guru to practice? Doesn't make sense isn't it? Read this: http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=5993

Based on my personal experience, I can tell you very clearly Dorje Shugden is a Enlightened Being! I was one of the lucky few from the west to be invited to Serpom Monastery's new prayer hall opening a couple of months back. Over there I witnessed Dorje Shugden taking trance through an oracle to bless the new prayer hall. Right after Dorje Shugden, the oracle took trance of Dharmapala Setrab! and Setrab was extremely delighted when He came to bless all of us. If Dorje Shugden is a spirit, do you think Setrab would be so happy or even accept the offerings of Yongyal Rinpoche and all the High Lamas present? Did you also know Setrab resides in the same mandala as Dorje Shugden? Read about it here: http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=10276

With so much facts and explanations presented to you in this thread (besides ZP), I sure do hope you gained something from it...have faith and believe in Dorje Shugden..He will bring you out of samsara!

Tenzin Gyatso

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 203
Re: I feel HH Dalai Lama is correct in speaking against Shugden
« Reply #46 on: February 21, 2012, 10:34:29 AM »
Dear TG,

By one classical Sutta, the Buddha did fumble in his meditation instructions and caused a mass suicide of a group of monks. He was rather surprised to find out, and changed the instructions afterwards by request of the ever compassionate Ananda. Not something one would expect from an omniscient being.

By another classical Sutta, the Buddha himself categorically denies that it is possible for anyone, including him, to be omniscient.

In the collected writings of Je Tsongkhapa, an enligtened being, we find him disproving his own prior works.

I do know that some Buddhists think that to be a Buddha is to be a Totally Awesomelly Pure and All Knowing Godly Source of Sheer Radiance, but there are many other traditional Buddhists who do not understand supreme enlightenment like that. Some Buddhists do not seek Absolute Perfection, and even dare to believe the Buddha when he says that omniscience is impossible. Mistakes are made and shit happens. Not everything goes according to the plan. There are chance occurences in the universe. And the Buddha had back pains, eventhough he was outside of samsara. Stuff exists and reality bites. Our refuge is Buddha and Dharma, not Krishna and fantasyland, you see.

So think carefully when you say "if Buddhas such as Shakyamuni, Manjushri, Vajra Yogini can make mistakes, there is no friendly debate left at all", for quite a many traditional Buddhists do believe in the Teachings of the classical Suttas.

When we were kids, we thought that our Mama and Papa were capable of everything, knew everything, were perfect. They could open doors, tie our shoe laces, open food cans and soda bottles, and could answer all our questions. But then we grew up, and the illusion of perfection was just a childish dream. We must now be careful not to approach Buddhism in that same childish sense. It might be helpful for a while, year or two, but then we must grow up, and see that there is no way back to that carefree existence when Momma and Poppy did everything perfectly and skillfully and all-knowingly whenever we needed their help. We ourselves must walk the Way - the Buddha and all of Sangha can just give maps and point the way in the hope that neither we, nor them, fumble. Some of us do, sadly, and equally sadly some of them have done and will do. It is a crap, but what can you do. Maintaining a view that someone out there is Perfect-and-Holier-than-Holy sadly does not help - it only keeps us infantile.

Dear Zp,

What sutta please? What's the author?

Thanks. :)

Lineageholder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 516
Re: I feel HH Dalai Lama is correct in speaking against Shugden
« Reply #47 on: February 21, 2012, 12:11:27 PM »

Dear LH,

I appreciate your views. And I am in full understanding of how much the unjust ban has hurt you, your friends, me, many people, the dharma, Gelug lineage, Gelug lamas and the general Buddha Dharma. That is why I contribute to this forum/website in any way I can and will continue to do so as a way to 'fight' back or reverse this.

(snip)

Thank you.
Tk

Dear TK,

I thank you for your honest response to my concerns, and for your explanation and advice: I will consider it carefully. 

It's true that we are all sincere Dorje Shugden practitioners and working for the same goal.  It's our job to keep the Ganden Lineage alive in our hearts with the help of our precious uncommon protector.  Let's pray that it can be so.

With respect,

Lineageholder

beggar

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 861
Re: I feel HH Dalai Lama is correct in speaking against Shugden
« Reply #48 on: February 21, 2012, 06:53:17 PM »

Dear LH,

I appreciate your views. And I am in full understanding of how much the unjust ban has hurt you, your friends, me, many people, the dharma, Gelug lineage, Gelug lamas and the general Buddha Dharma. That is why I contribute to this forum/website in any way I can and will continue to do so as a way to 'fight' back or reverse this.

(snip)

Thank you.
Tk

Dear TK,

I thank you for your honest response to my concerns, and for your explanation and advice: I will consider it carefully. 

It's true that we are all sincere Dorje Shugden practitioners and working for the same goal.  It's our job to keep the Ganden Lineage alive in our hearts with the help of our precious uncommon protector.  Let's pray that it can be so.

With respect,

Lineageholder

To dear friends TK and Lineageholder

thank you for your contributions to this thread. It is really so encouraging to read what both of you are writing to each other. I think it is great that we can have very different views on the same subject, after agreeing to disagree, still respect each other and work towards a shared goal to keep our lineage alive and our Protector practices strong.

I wish you both my sincerest prayers from my heart in your practices. May we become very strong in our practice, as shining beacons in the world for all those who say that Shugden creates harm.

Respect!

Lineageholder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 516
Re: I feel HH Dalai Lama is correct in speaking against Shugden
« Reply #49 on: February 21, 2012, 10:17:41 PM »
To dear friends TK and Lineageholder

thank you for your contributions to this thread. It is really so encouraging to read what both of you are writing to each other. I think it is great that we can have very different views on the same subject, after agreeing to disagree, still respect each other and work towards a shared goal to keep our lineage alive and our Protector practices strong.

I wish you both my sincerest prayers from my heart in your practices. May we become very strong in our practice, as shining beacons in the world for all those who say that Shugden creates harm.

Respect!

Thanks beggar for your kind words and wishes, they are appreciated.  Thanks for all your hard work also in keeping the practice of Dorje Shugden alive, we're all very fortunate to have faith in him and to be under his care.

Many prayers for your practice and work,

LH

Zhalmed Pawo

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 264
Re: I feel HH Dalai Lama is correct in speaking against Shugden
« Reply #50 on: February 24, 2012, 10:36:12 AM »
Dear Zp,

What sutta please? What's the author?

Thanks. :)


In this essay you can find references to many Suttas that touch on the subject. The Suttas themselves can be found from Sutta-pitaka.

vajralight

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 147
Re: I feel HH Dalai Lama is correct in speaking against Shugden
« Reply #51 on: February 24, 2012, 12:38:54 PM »
In Introduction to Buddhism Geshe Kelsang Gyatso says;

"There is nothing Buddha does not know. Because he has awakened from the sleep of ignorance and has removed all obstructions from his mind, he knows everything of the pas, present and future, directly and simultaneously. "

Geshe-la also talks about removing obstructions to liberation (delusions) and removing obstructions to omniscience (imprints of delusions) .

Sounds like omniscience to me.

Vajra

PS Although I love Theravada scriptures, I prefer to follow Mahayana scriptures when I need confirmation of a point.




Zhalmed Pawo

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 264
Re: I feel HH Dalai Lama is correct in speaking against Shugden
« Reply #52 on: February 24, 2012, 02:28:00 PM »
PS Although I love Theravada scriptures, I prefer to follow Mahayana scriptures when I need confirmation of a point.


I prefer neither, since both sources pose occasionally big problems, internal contradictions, unethical crankery, and so forth. And also, both sources were composed and compiled over hundreds of years, by many different minds who were historically and possibly practicewise far removed from the Buddha. So, no textual source can be relied as truly reliable.

But back to the supposed omniscience and the possibility of changing the enlightened mind.

For instance, in this thread here, we find the words of the HHDL:

Quote
Dalai Lama: That is actually, strictly speaking, not religion. This spirit worship. So actually I myself since early 50 until 70, I myself also worship that (giggles) out of ignorance. Then eventually I notice... this spirit happen during 5th Dalai Lama. The 5th Dalai Lama, I think this happened during his lifetime, so he knows, I think, much better the reality. So he consider this spirit is evil spirit. So therefore after I realized that though his own autobiography and also some of his sort of, writings, and also many important lamas also consider that this is evil spirit, so therefore it remain or lasted more than 370 years, it remain very controversial worship.


For those who think that HHDL does not tell lies and is a Buddha, and who think that Buddhas are omniscient and cannot therefore change their views (as they knew everything all the time), that statement is a big problem.

If on the other hand, one would allow the Buddhas to be non-omniscient and capable of error of judgement, there would be no problems whatsoever. For then, it would simply be the case that Shakyamuni made occasionally some errors, and so did the HHDL (either when practicing DS or when stopping to practice DS). Also the problem of how could different enlightened Gurus disagree on the status of DS, becomes a non-problem.

Those who imagine to find some sort of perfection in samsara, will only find many unnecessary problems. It must be remembered, that Shakyamuni and HHDL are in samsara, not in nirvana, for otherwise we humans could not observe them. All the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas are by necessity functioning within the samsara. Therefore error is inevitable.

Ensapa

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4124
    • Email
Re: I feel HH Dalai Lama is correct in speaking against Shugden
« Reply #53 on: February 24, 2012, 09:59:06 PM »

I prefer neither, since both sources pose occasionally big problems, internal contradictions, unethical crankery, and so forth. And also, both sources were composed and compiled over hundreds of years, by many different minds who were historically and possibly practicewise far removed from the Buddha. So, no textual source can be relied as truly reliable.

But back to the supposed omniscience and the possibility of changing the enlightened mind.

For instance, in this thread here, we find the words of the HHDL:

Quote
Dalai Lama: That is actually, strictly speaking, not religion. This spirit worship. So actually I myself since early 50 until 70, I myself also worship that (giggles) out of ignorance. Then eventually I notice... this spirit happen during 5th Dalai Lama. The 5th Dalai Lama, I think this happened during his lifetime, so he knows, I think, much better the reality. So he consider this spirit is evil spirit. So therefore after I realized that though his own autobiography and also some of his sort of, writings, and also many important lamas also consider that this is evil spirit, so therefore it remain or lasted more than 370 years, it remain very controversial worship.


For those who think that HHDL does not tell lies and is a Buddha, and who think that Buddhas are omniscient and cannot therefore change their views (as they knew everything all the time), that statement is a big problem.

If on the other hand, one would allow the Buddhas to be non-omniscient and capable of error of judgement, there would be no problems whatsoever. For then, it would simply be the case that Shakyamuni made occasionally some errors, and so did the HHDL (either when practicing DS or when stopping to practice DS). Also the problem of how could different enlightened Gurus disagree on the status of DS, becomes a non-problem.

Those who imagine to find some sort of perfection in samsara, will only find many unnecessary problems. It must be remembered, that Shakyamuni and HHDL are in samsara, not in nirvana, for otherwise we humans could not observe them. All the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas are by necessity functioning within the samsara. Therefore error is inevitable.


What I find interesting is that Zong Rinpoche had mentioned before that Pabongkha Rinpoche is in reality Heruka, but due to our deluded minds and our negative karma we are unable to see it as such. If what Zong Rinpoche said about Pabongkha Rinpoche is true, then all mistakes of any Buddha are not really mistakes but our own delusion and ignorance and lack of understanding because we do not understand the actions of a Buddha and therefore we impute it to be a mistake. This is a point that we have to consider if we say that high lamas make mistakes.

Shakyamuni had Devadatta and also other people who thought that he was nothing more than just a sham. If even the historical Buddha had detractors, what is there to say about his emanations appearing as various different teachers? Criticism is unavoidable but to focus on it and not practice Dharma instead is a waste of time. The time you use to criticize others can be easily used for Dharma practice.

There is no point in finding fault in lamas, simply because it is a complete waste of time. It is better to find fault in ourselves instead. Because the scenario of "If the Buddhas are wrong" can and will never exist. But it is very obvious that all of us have a deluded mind as we are not enlightened yet.

If we want to talk about the 5th Dalai Lama, his act of ousting the Karmapa from ruling Tibet appears as a very undharmic thing to do, but there was not much negative impact from that. So now what? Does that action mean that the line of Dalai Lamas are bad? I don't think so. If we depend too much on our own emotions and limited logic to judge lamas, we will be incurring a lot of negative karma in the form of holding on to wrong views.

Zhalmed Pawo

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 264
Re: I feel HH Dalai Lama is correct in speaking against Shugden
« Reply #54 on: February 25, 2012, 02:13:09 AM »
What I find interesting is that Zong Rinpoche had mentioned before that Pabongkha Rinpoche is in reality Heruka, but due to our deluded minds and our negative karma we are unable to see it as such. If what Zong Rinpoche said about Pabongkha Rinpoche is true, then all mistakes of any Buddha are not really mistakes but our own delusion and ignorance and lack of understanding because we do not understand the actions of a Buddha and therefore we impute it to be a mistake. This is a point that we have to consider if we say that high lamas make mistakes.

I would think rather, that if one Guru is enlightened from his own side, whether we see him as enlightened or not, it doesn't follow that Buddhas would be without faults. I think people generally miss the whole point in all this "Guru is a Buddha" -thingy.

From the point of view of Sutra, the Guru is not seen as a Buddha (except the Guru-Founder Shakyamuni, of course). Therefore there is no need to suppose or see either faults or purity, or to see the Teacher in any specific way.

From the point of view of Tantra, the practice is to see the Guru as a Buddha, and this must be done in a specific way. But for starters, one must understand, that it does not matter whether the Guru is or isn't a Buddha from his own side. It does not matter whether the Guru really is Heruka or not, for the practice is the same in any case. Vajramaster can be unenlightened, but if the student sees him as enlightened, the student gets the blessings just as well as if the Guru would be enlightened. And now comes the tricky part: If one has a pure mind, on the level of samadhi or dhyana perhaps, one could see and relate to the Guru on the level of enjoyment body, sambhogakaya, the pure body, and then, one would see only purity. (Perhaps Zong Rinpoche could see Je Pabongkhapa as Heruka directly.) But for most practitioners, this is impossible, and they see only the form body or emanation body, nirmanakaya, and have to relate to the Guru on that impure level. This means that one will see faults. There is no need to find faults, as the faults are a given. And it is here where the "magic of Tantra" happens.

Basic idea of practicing Tantra is that one sees and approaches a faulty thing, a samsaric thing, an impure thing, but views it as pure, as blissfull, for in Tantra, there is no dualism of pure and impure! The whole world, or mandala, is just a big and horrible charnel ground, and that is called the pure land of Vajrayogini. In tsog, one partakes of bala and madana, and considers them to be pure bliss. Also, one cannot see one's own enlightened nature if one cannot see it first in some other faulty being, the Guru. This means that if one categorically refuses to see faults in the Guru, one cannot see purity in the impure either, cannot see enlightenment within the darkness, nirvana in the samsara, or even the possibility of nirvana amidst the samsara - and therefore one is not practicing Tantra at all. If one separates the pure from impure, one has created a gap that makes Tantra impossibility. The whole point in having a Guru is that one can see one's own capability of being a Buddha right here right now, just as one is, faults and all. Those who dogmatically refuse to see enlightenment within faults, have pushed or lifted Buddha's nirmanakaya back to the level of sambhogakaya, and can not therefore see either one - those people merely have a human teacher onto whom they have sticked a label "buddha". If one says that "the Guru is totally pure", then that Guru is not an emanation body of a Buddha, for emanations exist only on the level of Desire Realm, which is by default impure. Since the Buddhas care to send emanations to help us, then I think it would be at least courteous to relate to them as such, and not to try to throw them back to a level where we cannot relate to them at all.

In short: From the point of view of Tantra, one needs to see both impurity and purity, and learn to lose the duality.


PS: I find it most inspiring when the classical Suttas and the Vajrayana agree on something. So wonderful.

Zhalmed Pawo

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 264
Re: I feel HH Dalai Lama is correct in speaking against Shugden
« Reply #55 on: February 25, 2012, 03:53:34 AM »
Dear ZP,

The very fact that the Buddhadharma has been passed down for thousands of years, shows the quality of the Buddha and Dharma. I am dumbfounded with your point of the Buddha making mistakes.

Well, he nevertheless did. Why do you feel it is a problem?

And furthermore, the Vedas and the Torah have been passed down at least equally long, but does this now say something about the quality of Moses and the Rishis and their traditions? In other words, the ancient provenance of a tradition tells us nothing about the qualities of the originator or the tradition itself - it tells us only about the tenacity of the followers of the tradition. Cannibalistic ritualism for instance, which exists even today in certain parts of the globe, is a much longer tradition than any of the aforementioned traditions.

Quote
Thousands and thousands of years we have been practicing the Buddhadharma. Are you saying that we all have made a mistake by doing so?

Of course not. Why do you think I would say something like that?

Quote
Many have gained enlightenment by studying the Lamrim. I am just giving an example of how the Buddhadharma is flawless. There are many more facts out there. Please brush up your knowledge for you to have more faith in your protector, Dorje Shugden!

While it is true that by practicing Dharma one can become enlightened, it does not follow that all Dharma is flawless. According to Je Tsongkhapa, the Buddhist schools known as Vaibhaasika Sarvastivada, Sautraantika Sarvastivada, Yogacara, Svatantrika Madhyamika, and Prasangika Madhyamika of the Sakyas have flaws, and do not lead to liberation. Either those schools are mistaken, or Je Tsongkhapa made a mistake. In any case, there is some mistake somewhere within the Buddhadharma-lineage of the Gelukpas, that is, lineage of ours...

Buddhism or Buddhadharma is not an unitary thing. It consists of many different traditions. Some have flaws, some are mistaken. One cannot generalise and say that it all is flawless.

DSFriend

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 955
Re: I feel HH Dalai Lama is correct in speaking against Shugden
« Reply #56 on: February 25, 2012, 04:06:05 AM »

Dear LH,

I appreciate your views. And I am in full understanding of how much the unjust ban has hurt you, your friends, me, many people, the dharma, Gelug lineage, Gelug lamas and the general Buddha Dharma. That is why I contribute to this forum/website in any way I can and will continue to do so as a way to 'fight' back or reverse this.

(snip)

Thank you.
Tk

Dear TK,

I thank you for your honest response to my concerns, and for your explanation and advice: I will consider it carefully. 

It's true that we are all sincere Dorje Shugden practitioners and working for the same goal.  It's our job to keep the Ganden Lineage alive in our hearts with the help of our precious uncommon protector.  Let's pray that it can be so.

With respect,

Lineageholder

I read this thread with much interest as TK and LH present views wich differs, yet both keeps coming back to this forum and contributing perhaps because of one key common factor (amongst many other reasons) , which is the trust in the UNCOMMON PROTECTOR and wish to keep the Ganden Lineage alive.

The ban has hurt many. However, I feel it will be even more damaging if we criticize lamas and teachers whom we are not associated with...especially in Vajrayana where relying on a Guru is of utmost importance.

Many around the world may not be fortunate to "figure it all out" regarding the whole issue surrounding this ban. I don't think this forum claims to have it all "figured out" but I can be sure that the view presented and what this forum stands for offers substantial information and logic to acquire a view which :
1. helps heal and bring peace of mind
2. unites people
3. respects fellow dharma practitioners and most of all respect lamas
4. allows one to continue growing spiritually
5. keeps Je tsongkhapa's pure lineage alive

This forum and website space is self serving in a way for many of us to learn. NOT only that, but this space has grown to serve thousands who visits.

The knowledge which has been shared impacts someone, somewhere who is searching for hope, solace, and to grow spiritually. I thank the admin of this website and all who have contributed as it only goes to show a genuine buddhist heart of compassion, reaching out to others.

Big Uncle

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1995
Re: I feel HH Dalai Lama is correct in speaking against Shugden
« Reply #57 on: February 25, 2012, 04:53:15 AM »

...Please use your logic and knowledge to increase faith in Buddhadharma and Dorje Shugden. Otherwise, you are undoing Dorje Shugden's hard work along with all the many High Lamas including your own Lama. Why do I say this? There are thousands reading this forum and many of them are very new in the Dharma.

Looks you don't get his point...:)

Dear Wang,

I am sorry Wang but what is it that I don't get from ZP's post? He quotes from the scriptures and came to a summary that the Guru and the Buddha makes mistakes. What I am saying is that such pattern of thought creates doubts that makes it difficult for people to develop trust in the Guru and the Buddha. I think that is a dangerous path to go as it strikes at the foundation of the teachings. If you have other thoughts regarding what I said or what ZP said, please share.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2012, 11:46:10 AM by Big Uncle »

Ensapa

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4124
    • Email
Re: I feel HH Dalai Lama is correct in speaking against Shugden
« Reply #58 on: February 25, 2012, 05:03:22 PM »

Dear Wang,

I am sorry Wang but what is it that I don't get from ZP's post? He quotes from the scriptures and came to a summary that the Guru and the Buddha makes mistakes. What I am saying is that such pattern of thought creates doubts that makes it difficult for people to develop trust in the Guru and the Buddha. I think that is a dangerous path to go as it strikes at the foundation of the teachings. If you have other thoughts regarding what I said or what ZP said, please share.

This is a perfect example on why the uninitiated should not be reading tantric texts, because without the proper foundations of the 3 principle paths and Guru devotion, it is very easy for someone to misinterpret them. Thus in Vajrayana these texts are secret. To be honest, i don't think we can relate to someone who makes mistakes in a positive way. Even if we can there is no way that it can be a postive association so why would we want to perceive a person who can give us enlightenment in that way?

The point of sutra and tantra is to see that our perceptions are not real and cannot be trusted so by forming more of them, there is a logic loop there. In the generation stage of any tantra, we are taught that we are the deity, and not just us but every single sentient being is the deity as well and this is because we want to develop the pure view of not seeing the negatives of others.

If we can relate to a Guru because he makes mistakes, why would we want to associate ourselves with someone that will increase our negative aspects? It does not make sense at all. And to use a tantric text to justify this view is indeed perplexing. Also I thought such things are not to be discussed by people who do not understand…please do not create wrong views in the minds of others..

However, us being too critical or too paranoid of the Buddha or other people making mistakes also reveals to us our insecurity that is basically a limit..so it is something to work on as well…being bitter does nothing to help us with our Dharma practice.

AnneQ

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 73
Re: I feel HH Dalai Lama is correct in speaking against Shugden
« Reply #59 on: February 25, 2012, 05:13:32 PM »

I am not making excuses for HHDL. He doesn't need my help and he is doing really well all on his own. Advising against Shugden's practice was from his compassion. What does he gain from doing this. Take a good long think at it. It must be for the greater benefit of many.


For several weeks now I have been going into this forum and have read many topics and opinions from many devout DS practitioners and non practitioners alike. Today I have finally decided to post something because I took Tenzin Gyatso's advise to "take a long good think" at all the controversies and contridictions pertaining to HHDL's stand against Shugden.

This is what I think. Yes, I believe HHDL advise against Shugden's practice was from compassion and greater benefit of many. How? By banning the practice, HHDL created a split between the Tibetan community and His actions were condemned by many. Hence this in turn created a rift and a diversion from the Tibetan's cause to gain automony from China, and destroyed a united opposition against the Chinese. Why is this a 'good' thing? Because, if the Tibetans were united and continued their fight against China, a small country like Tibet will be destroyed. The Chinese in their sheer numbers will massacre the Tibetans.

Judging by the result of this ban, HHDL has achieved what no other Lamas have - the spread of Shugden practice on a global scale and most importantly, the acceptance of Tibetan Buddhism in China. So instead of spending all their energy in destroying the Tibetan cause, the Chinese are now open to the spread of Buddhism and forging better relations with Tibetans.

Yes, this ban had created many hardships, confusion and pain for the Tibetan citizens, but this is comparatively a small price to pay for the greater good and survival of the Tibetan community.

And for this, HHDL is brillant. Imagine, both HHDL and DS together have saved Tibet.