I feel HH Dalai Lama is correct in speaking against Shugden

[Zhalmed Pawo]

This is a perfect example on why the uninitiated should not be reading tantric texts, because without the proper foundations of the 3 principle paths and Guru devotion, it is very easy for someone to misinterpret them. Thus in Vajrayana these texts are secret.

Bingo! The whole idea of Guru being a Buddha is a secret Varjayana teaching, and should be kept out of the public view, and also from the Buddhist beginners. But for some mysterious reason, people do shout that view constantly in the open. They even use it as an argument to brush aside bad behaviour of many Big Name Buddhists.

To be honest, i don't think we can relate to someone who makes mistakes in a positive way. Even if we can there is no way that it can be a postive association so why would we want to perceive a person who can give us enlightenment in that way?

Us ourselves, our families, friends, colleagues, fellow practitioners, and so forth, all make mistakes, and yet, we can very easily have positive, meaningful and fulfilling relationships with them.

It is not about wanting to see faults and mistakes in anyone, least in the Gurus, but about accepting the reality as it is. Everything in samsara is impure, not pure. That must be the basis of the path, if the path is to be real.

If we can relate to a Guru because he makes mistakes, why would we want to associate ourselves with someone that will increase our negative aspects?

Why do you think that recognizing and accepting reality would increase our negativities?

[vajrastorm]

I would first like to say "thank you" to the admin of this website for providing a very broad platform for debate and argument on this forum. All the same, I would like to bring the argument of this thread back to the original topic of this thread.

Those who disagree with this statement - re HH Dalai Lama being correct in speaking against Shugden - have shown how, on the one hand , Shugden practitioners have shown with sound valid reasoning that Dorje Shugden is a Buddha and not an evil malicious spirit, and how ,on the other hand, HH Dalai Lama has not given clear, sound and logical reasons to show that Shugden is an evil spirit and hence his practice should be banned.   

Furthermore, there are so many contradictions and inconsistencies in the Dalai Lama's words and actions with regard to the practice of Shugden. He was once a Shugden practitioner who wrote a beautiful prayer in praise of Dorje Shugden in Dungkar Monastery called "Melody of the Unceasing Vajra". He then decided to give up the practice, saying (with no substantive proof) that Shugden was an evil spirit. He had propitiated Shugden's help in His successful escape from Tibet and later denied it was Shugden who had helped Him escape. Between Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche(HH Dalai Lama's Root Guru) and the Dalai Lama , there are further inconsistencies. Trijang Rinpoche allowed the Dalai Lama to give up his practice of Shugden. The Dalai Lama allows the Current Trijang Rinpoche to practice Shugden and also allows the throne of Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche to remain in Gaden Monastery. Kyabje Trijang's senior students are among the older generation of the CTA. These include the ex-Kalon Tripa, Samdhong Rinpoche, who had been most vocal against Shugden practitioners and in enforcing the ban. Then, when he was about to retire, he made a 180 degree turn and said that he had all along been following his Root Guru, Kyabje Trijand Rinpoche's instructions in his anti-Shugden stance!

To add more pieces to the jigsaw puzzle, both Samdhong Rinpoche and The Dalai Lama's youngest brother  are said to be emanations of Dorje Shugden! Thus, as this website has so consistently shown, there is a bigger picture which seems to be unfolding, in which Enlightened and compassionate Beings, like the Dalai Lam(who is an emanation of Chenrezig) and Dorje Shudgen are working together! Thus the more vehemently the Dalai Lama condemns Shugden and Shugden practitioners, the faster and further does Shugden practice spread. As Buddhism continues to spread with its greatest of modern-day teachers, HH Dalai Lama's tireless efforts, so does Shugden practice!

Finally, as Ensapa says: " (All) mistakes(and contradictions) of any Buddha are not really mistakes, but our own (limited )minds of delusion and ignorance and our lack of understanding(sees them as such)". 

[samayakeeper]

Everyone has the right and freedom to voice his opinion here but the rule of the thumb is not to bash another lama nor dharma center. I certainly do not have the qualifications to judge anyone here. HH has his reasons for doing what he is doing, I have my reasons for doing what I am doing and will continue doing.

HH says do not do Dorje Shugden’s practice but other high incarnate lamas still do because they received the practice from their root gurus (some who still practice Dorje Shugden) and not from HH directly. Some of these great practitioners had taken very positive and controlled rebirth and returned to continue and benefiting many more. I wonder how this is possible if Dorje Shugden is a demon.

I am like in a movie hall watching a movie and just waiting to see how the movie ends, I am sure the ending would be of huge benefit to all. The movie may end soon, quite soon.

[Ensapa]

Bingo! The whole idea of Guru being a Buddha is a secret Varjayana teaching, and should be kept out of the public view, and also from the Buddhist beginners. But for some mysterious reason, people do shout that view constantly in the open. They even use it as an argument to brush aside bad behaviour of many Big Name Buddhists.

That is no secret as the Guru openly displays his enlightened qualities whenever he gives teachings or guides his students, but to respect the other traditions such as theravarda who only believe in the existence on 1 Buddha, this will not be said to them as they cannot handle nor accept it. We're in a vajrayana forum, brother, which is why we can talk about this here openly as it is understood and the basis of all vajrayana teachings. So that view is not secret at all.

Us ourselves, our families, friends, colleagues, fellow practitioners, and so forth, all make mistakes, and yet, we can very easily have positive, meaningful and fulfilling relationships with them.

It is not about wanting to see faults and mistakes in anyone, least in the Gurus, but about accepting the reality as it is. Everything in samsara is impure, not pure. That must be the basis of the path, if the path is to be real.

Yeah but we also accept the fact that our friends, families etc are not 100% reliable as they are part of samsara and therefore we turn our attention to the Dharma, to our Gurus who as many texts have pointed out are in reality Shakyamunis appearing in different guises to benefit many, fulfilling his vow. Is this what is not taught in the Lamrim, that in order to practice sincerely one must accept the faults of samsara and then turn their back on them and follow the teachings wholeheartedly under the care of a spiritual guide?

Why do you think that recognizing and accepting reality would increase our negativities?

By the virtual of the object. If we focus on a negative quality, how do we hope to get something positive out of it?If you want to focus on your Guru's negative qualities, might as well focus and accept of those who have committed crime and murder. Isn't that even more obvious and easier to "relate" to because they made "mistakes" in life? What you said is not really reality but your imputation of reality that Gurus can make mistakes, if their mistakes are real then we all have no hope of Buddhahood and they're not attained at all, but thats not the case as time and time have proven again that many lamas are still capable of passing into clear light and some even attain the rainbow body.

Every single Guru in this world are the same and one in nature, but in a different form or container yet the contents are still the same: they contain the essence of Vajradhara: the nectar that grants us Buddhahood. To discriminate against one is to discriminate against all of them because they all have similar natures. If you want to accept that the Buddha makes mistakes, you can too because he did not get rid of Devadatta and allowed him to do harm and to split the sangha. So is that a mistake or as Chandrakirti had mentioned that it is merely his emanations staging an act to teach all of us? If the Buddha can do it why not our Gurus who make mistakes on purpose to teach us a lesson?

Lastly, if you wish to believe that teachers can do mistakes that is all right but please do not spread the view or it will damage many people as this contradicts what has been said in many stainless tantric texts about Guru devotion as well as sutra teachings on Guru devotion….and planting a view that is not in line with the Dharma texts in others. You want to do that? You know how heavy that karma is right?

[vajrastorm]

Yes, as is stated in the first stanza of Yonten Shigyurma, the Lamrim Lineage Prayer and Meditation by Lama Tsongkapa, the root of the path is Guru Devotion and proper reliance on one's Guru by focusing on him (as is stated in the Lamrim) as a Buddha. Hence, there should be no shadow of a doubt in the mind about one's Spiritual Guide who leads us on the Path to full Enlightenment.  Hence, it is a mistaken path to tread to start seeing faults and mistakes in our Gurus.To engage in talk and discussion about this is also wrong and damaging, especially in a forum with many viewers from everywhere.

(By the way, just to correct an error in my earlier post on this thread, re- the Dalai Lama's youngest brother as an incarnation of Dorje Shugden. I beg to apologize. It should be the Dalai Lama's youngest brother as an incarnation of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen. Thank you.).

[Ensapa]

Yes, as is stated in the first stanza of Yonten Shigyurma, the Lamrim Lineage Prayer and Meditation by Lama Tsongkapa, the root of the path is Guru Devotion and proper reliance on one's Guru by focusing on him (as is stated in the Lamrim) as a Buddha. Hence, there should be no shadow of a doubt in the mind about one's Spiritual Guide who leads us on the Path to full Enlightenment.  Hence, it is a mistaken path to tread to start seeing faults and mistakes in our Gurus.To engage in talk and discussion about this is also wrong and damaging, especially in a forum with many viewers from everywhere.

(By the way, just to correct an error in my earlier post on this thread, re- the Dalai Lama's youngest brother as an incarnation of Dorje Shugden. I beg to apologize. It should be the Dalai Lama's youngest brother as an incarnation of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen. Thank you.).

It just does not make sense. Why would you want to relate and take refuge with someone just because he or she makes mistakes? Then why take refuge in a qualified teacher? can take refuge with our parents and friends also, no need to take refuge with someone who has spent the last 20-30 years of their lives studying and holding the monk vows…We take refuge in them because they do not make mistakes when holding their vows.

The logic itself is very interesting to try and understand the mind of such an individual to the point where he thinks that the sutras and tantras are agreeing with him and totally ignoring the rudimentary, core texts that are the foundations for our practice. It is very easy to twist things around to fit our own laziness and wrong views instead of following what should be interpreted, or the views of an actual teacher.

It is also for this reason that we should always seek the guidance of a proper and qualified teacher so that we do not fall into our own mental deceptions. And of course we need to follow this teacher all the way and not be picky on his advice and teachings or else there will be no point of having a teacher…the reason why we need guidance is because we want to avoid our own pitfalls and holes due to many lifetimes of habituations and laziness to not transform our minds.

Ngari Rinpoche is just one of the many emanations and reincarnations of Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen. There are many, many more emanations of Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen that are around that are benefitting countless amount of beings and we will never know who might be his incarnation…but definitely will be someone benefitting people on a very grand scale

[Gabby Potter]

It depends on individual perspectives but in my opinion, I think that by His Holiness speaking against Dorje Shugden, it creates some kind of effects in a way that it attracts more people to practise Dorje Shugden. Because His Holiness is such an influential and famous leader, so wherever His Holiness goes, people follow and so the Dorje Shugden issues have become an attention to the people and medias. So I think that it's a good thing in a way.