The BAN makes people think about what is a Buddha and what is a spirit!

[hope rainbow]

When people come across a debate about: "is Dorje Shugden a worldly spirit or is He a Buddha?", even though they know little or nothing about the Dharma, they actually engage in a thinking process like this:

- There are spirits, thus there is a spirit realm, thus there is such a thing as realms, thus there is such a thing as rebirth, thus there is karma, thus there is suffering, thus there are causes for suffering... What? When? How?

- There are Buddhas, what qualifies a Buddha? Who are they? What do they do? So there is a possibility for someone to become a Buddha or a spirit... how then? Thus there must be causes for becoming a spirit, and there must be causes and a method to attain buddhahood too. What? When? How? Who?

Have you ever thought about this?
The ban is preparing many people's mind to receive teachings on the first, second, third and fourth Noble Truths... It creates a terrain to receive teachings with a mind that is more open because it has formulated questions in search of answers!
This is especially valid for the cultures of this world that did not have karma and rebirth clearly established or for those who had lost them. They are thrown a juicy ban and let to think for themselves for a bit, and then when they come across a Lamrim teaching, they start "figuring things out".
Things we find through a controversy and through personal research and debate come to our minds deeper and stay.

What an interesting and skillful way to bring people into spirituality and make them develop more and more deep-seated knowkedge....

[VS]

Well said, Hope Rainbow.

The ban has definitely created a lot of hype for DS practice. It has also created curiosity amongst Tibetan Buddhist practitioners and the public in general. This has also resulted the need of more info and learnings.

With this, ds.com has played a major roll in providing an unbiased info and education for those who are thirst for knowledge.

Thank you members of ds.com, your continuous updates have provided precious info for all to learn about DS.

[Positive Change]

When people come across a debate about: "is Dorje Shugden a worldly spirit or is He a Buddha?", even though they know little or nothing about the Dharma, they actually engage in a thinking process like this:

- There are spirits, thus there is a spirit realm, thus there is such a thing as realms, thus there is such a thing as rebirth, thus there is karma, thus there is suffering, thus there are causes for suffering... What? When? How?

- There are Buddhas, what qualifies a Buddha? Who are they? What do they do? So there is a possibility for someone to become a Buddha or a spirit... how then? Thus there must be causes for becoming a spirit, and there must be causes and a method to attain buddhahood too. What? When? How? Who?

Have you ever thought about this?
The ban is preparing many people's mind to receive teachings on the first, second, third and fourth Noble Truths... It creates a terrain to receive teachings with a mind that is more open because it has formulated questions in search of answers!
This is especially valid for the cultures of this world that did not have karma and rebirth clearly established or for those who had lost them. They are thrown a juicy ban and let to think for themselves for a bit, and then when they come across a Lamrim teaching, they start "figuring things out".
Things we find through a controversy and through personal research and debate come to our minds deeper and stay.

What an interesting and skillful way to bring people into spirituality and make them develop more and more deep-seated knowkedge....

What you have said here HR is very true. As with any topics within a positive or negative vein, it creates the very hype that one desires. Hence there really is no good or bad publicity... I firmly believe it is just purely PUBLICITY. Good or bad, is how one spins the situation to one's advantage.

This ban has its immense negative sides as well as positive sides. However, the bigger picture in terms of the results created seems to me like it will eventually take on a more positive outcome. In fact, we do see the beginnings of a "shift" as shared in this post: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1739.0

Personally, I find a lot of interesting information in the many many articles and the invaluable sharing and further information within the forum is also very encouraging for a Dharma dunce such as myself. This website is like the roots of a tree whereby the deeper one digs the further it goes into the truth.

I know I cannot say it enough. Thank you team dorjeshugden.com

[DharmaDefender]

(Playing devils advocate here) Conversely the ban could also cause people to think that Buddhisms just like any other religion, and full of conflict and turn them away from the path. I mean, why bother with Buddhism and its esoteric weird bans, when there are similar esoteric sects of Christianity (for example) that face the same kind of ostracism?

And the ban could just play into peoples hands by saying, "See, Buddhists are so backwards, implementing bans amongst themselves. How archaic. And all this hogswash about spirits and whatnot; pah, no such thing!"

Remember, devils advocate...aaaaand discuss!

G

[DharmaSpace]

Just a thought the Dharmapala's in the other Tibetan Traditions are they all enlightened as well? Or it is mixed some enlightened and some are not still on the path to liberation. Would be good if someone can share, thank you.

[Ensapa]

Just a thought the Dharmapala's in the other Tibetan Traditions are they all enlightened as well? Or it is mixed some enlightened and some are not still on the path to liberation. Would be good if someone can share, thank you.

From what I do know, most of the Nyigma dharma protectors like Ekajati, Rahula, etc are not enlightened and lay practitioners are not allowed to practice them. They were oath bound by Guru Rinpoche, and Nechung/Pehar was the strongest one amongst them and he served the Dalai Lama.

Even for enlightened protectors like Mahakala, you need to be initiated to one of the HYTs before you can propitiate him. So they are not really accessible to laypeople.

Dorje Shugden was the only protector that I have heard of that is given to lay disciples to practice, as most Dharma protectors are taught to have wrathful energy and is covered even in monasteries, much less having them being spread widely to lay practitioners. It is very well known that Chongyam Trungpa's son, Taggie mukpo turned out the way he did because in his past life, he exposed a thangka of Mahakala and he could not handle the energy and went a bit off after he did that (he was also a high Lama as well). This story is recounted in Dragon Thunder.

[yontenjamyang]

The Ban has many negatives, among others the treatment of DS practitioners, the sufferings of the Tibetans in exile and many many others. Really very sad.

The positive is it, makes Dorje Shugden the Dharma King of this degenerate  age, one of the most famous and fastest growing deity in Buddhism. The benefits to world is tremendous. I rejoice.

There is always a price to pay!

Nevertheless, we should continue to pressure the CTA and HHDL to lift the ban to alleviate these sufferings.

[Tenzin K]

hope rainbow, you are right! 
Frankly speak, the ban make me read a lot.
Yes! I learned up.
Great way of putting it.

dorjeshugden.com has been a main platform for me get the information and reading the forum seeing so many comments from different angle and perspective, Really open my mind.

The ban does make people want to know more and indirectly people ask, people read, people make assumption. As this keep on progressing, as a whole "people learn".

The ban had cause unreasonable suffering to people. For people which are non buddhist will relate it to human right.
When I read about the ban it's really a confusion statement and is a big question mark to me! The are a lot of WHY? WHEN? WHO? exactly!

Whether Lord Shugden a wordly spirit or an Enlightened Buddha, people will go and search and read more about it. People will indirectly know more by directly reading it.

Yes, this controversy will make people learn, not necessary for them to be a buddhist to understand it, but buddhist teaching is already part of our life style is just whether we notice it or not.
The ban does bring negative impact to the people but we don't just look and hold with it, from this negative side of it it does give another perspective of the positive impact for the growth of the practice & knowledge.

Never really thought in such a big picture. 
Thank you hope rainbow for showing us this!

[triesa]

Some people are curious and crave for knowledge, for these type of people, they definitely will look up and search more about who DS is.  These people will then get the benefits after reading this webiste as here we have the full lineage masters who are DS practitioners, including HE Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche, HE Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, HE Kyabje Zong Rinpoche, HE Gangchen Rinpoche and all the works that they did that have blessed and benefitted so many.

For some, who really don't bother much, upon hearing the name Dorje Shugden, even if they believe he is a spirit, a dharma seed is planted anyway.

So whichever way you see it, it is still a win-win situation.

I agree with YongtenJamyang, there is always a price to anything, no pain no gain....that's the nature of samsara. We just need to make the best out of every situation.....with a good motivation to benefit......

[jeremyg]

One thing is for sure, there is surely a reason for the ban. Otherwise why have a ban? Why create conflict, and why let many people suffer because of the suppression. All these would have been foreseen by the Dalai Lama himself before the introduction of the ban, yet he still chose to pursue it. From this we can gather that there must be tremendous gain that will arise from it.

Whatever questions go through a persons mind regarding the ban, will plant Dorje Shugden seeds in their mind, which will mean they will meet the dharma in the future. This is essential. What may cause suffering for 10, 20 years will benefit people for countless eons. So lets sacrifice the short term for the long term, work harder and alleviate the ban.

[Q]

Very interesting point of view... I've never thought of the ban in this angle before. Thank you for pointing it out.

Now that you've mentioned it, personally, I too have learned a lot about the qualities of a Buddha ever since I've been searching and reading information about DS.

Like many others, I also believe that the ban placed on DS has a higher motive behind it, despite the outer appearance of the ban.

Ever since the ban was implemented, people are searching information about BuddhaDharma. Traditionally, a person is required to ask for the Dharma by requesting from a Guru at least 3 times. In this modern day, I would say that the search for the truth behind the ban of DS practice equates to requesting for the Dharma. Besides that, the curiosity and want of a person to know the truth is a direct counter to being one of the 3 leaky pots, allowing the person to retain Dharma knowledge more effectively.

[Ensapa]

The ban has had a lot of side effects, but it really did made a lot of Buddhists think deeper and dig in deeper into the Buddha's teachings. HHDL has clearly stated that the reason for the ban was because he would like people to investigate deeper into the Dharma and examining it through practice and logic before accepting it. Nobody listened to him for years and perhaps him manifesting the ban is to drill the point into the hearts and minds of the people…if we accept without any investigation it is merely blind faith. And to make a point HHDL chose the protector that is compassionate enough to go through all the discriminations and bans.

The ban also made people realize how political Buddhist practitioners had become. Buddhists should not mix political standings with their own Dharma practice, but this is precisely what some Buddhist practitioners decided to do: segregating the DS practitioners from the community and causing them a lot of harm and pain, and spreading misinformation and superstition just to be in the right camp, to be politically correct and to appear valid in order to appeal to their own insecurity of Dharma practice. They then put down and discriminate against practitioners who do which is not Buddhist practice at all.

Some of them even give up their teachers and lineages for a more "valid" lineage, or in some cases, just write off that teacher. But this alone is going against the 50 verses of Guru devotion. How can it be that the word of a single Lama override all other Buddhist texts? The Dalai Lama is basically making all of us rethink and reflect to go back to the teachings and not just accept hearsay, because many people who follow the ban cannot even explain or debate properly on why Dorje Shugden should be banned…a few more questions and they will start shutting down and refuse to talk about it. This is why most Buddhist forums tend to ban topics of this nature.

But for some others, it makes them think and really investigate the teachings for themselves, and help them make an informed decision about Dorje Shugden and they can decide whether or not they should stick with being politically correct or go with what they think it is right. It is more important to follow what we know for sure is correct from our own investigation than to simply follow because we want to be politically correct, no matter what and this ban has provoked many people in this way. If they have the info they will be able to truly choose and this website gives them that information...

[Dondrup Shugden]

Truly it is the ban that makes many people think about the difference between a Buddha and a spirit.

This is the very little that we thank for on the ban.

Then knowing the difference enhances Dorje Shugden devotees to realise how fortunate they are to have such an enlightened Buddha as their Dharma Protector.