A Facebook status on Dorje Shugden

[Big Uncle]

Hey TG,

On that issue I'm totally with you. This promotion of a Lineage Protector is just moronish behaviour. If one wishes to promote something, it should be just the Sramana Gautama and nobody else.

yea

I beg your pardon? Moronish behaviour? Those are not very nice words to use for what many people have devoted their life and efforts into this forum and website.

The reason why we promote Dorje Shugden instead of Buddha Shakyamuni is very simple. Times has changed and it is very degenerate now. People have tremendously more negative karma now than ever before.

Hence, simple prayers and pujas to Sramana Gautama have little results as compared to the period before ours. Hence, people find it very hard to develop faith in the Buddha. It would take a special Protector who has the strength of a thousand Protectors - Dorje Shugden to gain the faith of the masses. His results are very swift and he is a fully enlightened Buddha who also has the ability to hook many onto the Dharma with his blessings and protection. It is not that Dorje Shugden is more powerful than the Buddha but a sign of our times (our collective karma) and our affinity...

[Ensapa]

Do you really want to help more people get involved with Shugden?

Even His Holiness Dalai Lama who propitiates Pelden Lhamo but does not promote her but Shakyamuni.

Why don't you promote a perfect being free of all mistakes like Shakyamuni Buddha who took three countless aeons to become a fully enlightened being as it's mentioned in the Parchin texts by Panchen as studied in Drepung Loseling and Dialectical School in McLeod Ganj Dharamsala (No I don't believe Panchen was a previous life of Shugden-so let's not go there please).

Why don't you promote something that the whole wide world of Buddhism accept? Shakyamuni Buddha is a perfect Buddha free of all obscurations and perfect in any aspect according to all texts, all sutras, Kangyur, Tengyur, all lineages, all schools of Buddhism?

If we have to please everybody we'll be very busy, won't we? Palden Lhamo is enlightened but she takes the form of a Mamo and might not be suitable for everyone. Dorje Shugden on the other hand takes the form of a monk and when in trance can give teachings and initiations. No other Dharma protector can do such a thing. No other Dharma protector aside from Dorje Shugden can give Dharma talks in a trance. Because Dorje Shugden is also a Dharma teacher. And that is one unique aspect of Dorje Shugden that makes him an object worthy of refuge.

Where is Dorje Shugden's mistake? can you present to us please? He did told the Dalai Lama to leave Tibet at the exact time, did he not? The current ban has also been predicted by Trijang Rinpoche too so it is all according to plan. But at the same time there are also people who want to do something about it to make it lift sooner so that more people can benefit and less people will suffer. Until today, NONE of the monks in Shar Ganden or Serpom gave up the Dalai Lama in favor of Dorje Shugden. Does that tell you something?

Shakyamuni is free from faults but can any of us relate to him properly, and if we do can we rely on him and gain results? No. Because our times are too diluted with distractions and comfort that we can no longer focus and extract the meaning from Shakyamuni directly. We need help to do so thus the introduction of Dharma protectors in Vajrayana. Why is it that Tibetan Buddhism has so many prominent teachers when compared to the other 2 traditions? because we have the help of a Dharma protector to help clear obstacles. That alone is definite proof.

Shakyamuni's tradition has been carried on by Nagajurna, Guru Rinpoche, Milarepa, Sakya Pandita, Atisha, Tsongkhapa, and many more masters up to today, and they are still living and valid because each and every teacher takes the original teachings and packages it in a way where the student can practice and perceive. That is why Vajrayana is more fruitful compared to the other 2 traditions. The prominent masters in Vajrayana alone outnumber those of the other two by a lot.

To carry on and promote these masters and what they have taught, for example the Dorje Shugden practice, is to also carry Shakyamuni's teachings and blessings as the lineage is unbroken. No teacher would ever allow an unripe student to teach his or her own students, and the teacher will make sure that the student is ready in all aspects, and has received and understood the full transmissions and have put them into practice before they can teach. To invalidate Dorje Shugden is to invalidate this lineage system that stems from Shakyamuni. To promote the teachings of these masters is the same as promoting Shakyamuni because the essence and results are the same.

[Tenzin Gyatso]

It was Nechung who asked HHDL to leave Tibet not dhogyal. When you base everything upon this, it will not be accurate already.

There is no proof it was Dhogyal who advised HHDL to leave.

[Ensapa]

It was Nechung who asked HHDL to leave Tibet not dhogyal. When you base everything upon this, it will not be accurate already.

There is no proof it was Dhogyal who advised HHDL to leave.

Oh but you are wrong

Dorje Shugden saved the Dalai Lama's Life	Small | Large

Nechung asked HHDL to STAY. And even predicted that they would be victorious against the guns and armies of China.

[bambi]

Oh... You are right Ensapa. People nowadays really base situations on hearsay. They rarely do research on what other people are saying, whether it is based on FACTS or rumors. I have friends who are the same. Just because they THINK that HHDL is wrong, the whole Tibetan Buddhism IS WRONG! IGNORANCE! Come on, we have such a beautiful website here with many posts based on FACTS, just do some reading THEN judge me for what I am practicing!

[Zach]

It was Nechung who asked HHDL to leave Tibet not dhogyal. When you base everything upon this, it will not be accurate already.

There is no proof it was Dhogyal who advised HHDL to leave.

See below video once again you are incorrect.

[Ensapa]

Oh... You are right Ensapa. People nowadays really base situations on hearsay. They rarely do research on what other people are saying, whether it is based on FACTS or rumors. I have friends who are the same. Just because they THINK that HHDL is wrong, the whole Tibetan Buddhism IS WRONG! IGNORANCE! Come on, we have such a beautiful website here with many posts based on FACTS, just do some reading THEN judge me for what I am practicing!

This is a very pervasive problem in the Buddhist world nowadays. That's how people will "learn" about buddhism..via opinions and judgements of other people. They have the thinking that Buddhism empowers them to increase their own ego….yes Buddhism empowers us to take charge of our lives but not in a way where we can choose what we want to hear about Buddhism.

again, this is a deeper and more pervasive problem than just a Dorje Shugden issue. It is the degeneration of Buddhism..and the Ban only highlights and brings this issue to light. Why do people respect the Dalai Lama more than their own root Gurus who has benefitted them many more than the Dalai Lama did…and directly to boot? Because they rather listen to influence than logic. Did the Buddha teach us to look at rank and file and fame and listen to the advice of those who are powerful?

The Dalai Lama is bringing this issue which many Buddhists are unable to face  because they do not want to: listening and operating based on hearsay and not study and logic. I have talked with some online Buddhists before who got impressed with texts like shantideva but when it comes to applying it was basically zero. He refused to follow a Guru or take in criticism but would like to judge on how other people practice the Dharma. He doesent care about who he's speaking Dharma to and he does look and sound like a lonely nerd…and what happens when people see someone like that preaching Buddhism? they get a bad impression.

When we study Dharma without a Guru, we will always think and assume that we have reached the level of the author of the text and we get high and happy when we are reading it but our actions however are damaging and do not represent Dharma at all. This is why we need a Guru, and this is why many people prefer not to be Gelug because they do not want to face logic and reasoning to examine their mind, rather relying on mystical experiences.

[ilikeshugden]

I find this as a very interesting post as this shows that Dorje Shugden is growing faster and further on the internet. Also, why discriminate? Dorje Shugden practitioners are still human beings. We must never think that Dorje Shugden is evil just from hearsay. If he was evil, we should have been able to find out about his misdeeds in historic texts but NO! This protector did not have any history that involves suffering of others! We must not believe what others say without opening our own eyes to see. Stop losing faith in Dorje Shugden just because someone said it is bad. Do research, use your own mind to think!

[vajratruth]

It was Nechung who asked HHDL to leave Tibet not dhogyal. When you base everything upon this, it will not be accurate already.

There is no proof it was Dhogyal who advised HHDL to leave.

I find it very disturbing that there are a lot of people like TG who seem to be a genuine and nice person, but who is also genuine misinformed. It is okay to be misinformed about football scores but not this. The scary part is how a person can go about spreading such untruths about an enlightened Protector without knowing FACTS. Not hearsay information but actual facts and accounts from monks who were present during key events surrounding HHDL's escape from Tibet.

When you engage is baseless loose talk about important matters like this, you not only deny yourself but you are in danger of turning other people away from the very Protector they need for our time.

TG said "It was Nechung who asked HHDL to leave Tibet not dhogyal. When you base everything upon this, it will not be accurate already"

My question to TG is this: If now we base everything on what we know, that it was Dorje Shugden, not Nechung, who not only requested HHDL to leave but also accompanied HHDL via a specific route, escorted by the Chushi Gangdruk which was established by instructions of Dorje Shugden, will you accept that Dorje Shugden is not an evil spirit?

What is the ultimate proof that that Dorje Shugden is not an evil spirit that is harmful to the HHDL? The fact that HHDL is very much alive and spreading the Dharma globally.

[VS]

In this technology age, internet is such a wonderful platform to promote just anything under the sun.

From the time facebook was launched till today, it's members has multiplied by the thousands!!!! Hence, this is really a great vehicle to promote DS.

Also, this enables DS warriors and practitioners around the world to share and exchange information without barrier. Just at the click of a button, we could get any information we needed on DS, with more info, more doubts will be cleared.

To me, this is really a brilliant way in spreading DS.

[Klein]

The poster is singaporean by the way.

It is so funny!! he speaks of Dorje Shugden like his ex lover! pray for dorje shugden practitioners hahahahaha, but he cannot even say WHY and notice how he said he had some past indoctrination? That's so funny because he follows what people tell him to do only and not do any investigation himself.  He takes their word so readily. And the sad part is, a majority of the Buddhists out there these days operate and behave this way.

It is very sad to see Buddhists listening to hearsay…If they were around the Buddha's time, when a woman faked her pregnancy and accused the Buddha of being the father, I am pretty sure most of these "Budddhists" today will walk away and lose all of their faith in Buddha….they trust in hearsay so easily and readily, without investigation or logic.

It is really up to us to change this generation of Buddhists into real Buddhists.

Dear Ensapa,

It's not just about being light eared towards Buddhism. If a person is light eared, it's across the board. Being light eared can be due to many reasons. To name a few, they can be:
1. too lazy to investigate further
2. want quick fixes
3. gullible
4. not interested
5. superstitious
6. fear of losing what they are attached to

Whatever it is, it is the overall attitude on how we handle different aspects of our lives. If the person has never been learning much about spirituality, especially the essence of it, then the person may feel that there is no need to put in much effort to investigate as it's not THAT important.

All stems from not knowing the importance of the subject matter. Perhaps developing a curious mind would be more beneficial for us because we will then investigate on whatever we hear or know of.

[Ensapa]

Dear Ensapa,

It's not just about being light eared towards Buddhism. If a person is light eared, it's across the board. Being light eared can be due to many reasons. To name a few, they can be:
1. too lazy to investigate further
2. want quick fixes
3. gullible
4. not interested
5. superstitious
6. fear of losing what they are attached to

Whatever it is, it is the overall attitude on how we handle different aspects of our lives. If the person has never been learning much about spirituality, especially the essence of it, then the person may feel that there is no need to put in much effort to investigate as it's not THAT important.

All stems from not knowing the importance of the subject matter. Perhaps developing a curious mind would be more beneficial for us because we will then investigate on whatever we hear or know of.

Hi Klein,

I like the way you dissected and analyzed the reasons for being light-eared. In this case, I am pretty sure that it is because that this person is superstitious as I later found out he has taken HYT initiations as well from many different teachers, mostly Nyigma and also from Lama Zopa. He is a very closed and bitter person, from the way he talked to me. It really struck me hard that someone who practiced HYT can turn out this way.

It could be that the person in question is too attached to his own experience with the Nyigmas thus he decides to distance himself from the Gelugs….and we all know that the Nyigmas are very against Dorje Shugden but the thing is he has already taken refuge with a Gelug lama and taken teachings and initiations as well. So much for loyalty against our own egos…

I find that there are a lot of self taught Buddhists these days that prefer Nyigma and Kagyu not because of the teachings, but because they do not need to validate their mystical experiences, whereas Gelug is not so much into mystical experiences and is more towards the cold hard facts, and even if there are mystical or unexplainable experiences when it comes to Dharma practice, it is often downplayed and dissected, which is one of Shakyamuni's original teachings anyway, that one should not rely solely on mystical things for spiritual salvation.

I am not saying that the other traditions are this way, but just that these self taught buddhists prefer to use these traditions to hide their own insecurities because it is only in Gelug that one is asked to verify and back up their mystical experiences..and these people prefer not to because they have nothing to back them up. That is just my observation after interacting with a few "internet" Buddhists…it is deplorable to see how most buddhists these days have become.

[thor]

Do you really want to help more people get involved with Shugden?

Even His Holiness Dalai Lama who propitiates Pelden Lhamo but does not promote her but Shakyamuni.

Why don't you promote a perfect being free of all mistakes like Shakyamuni Buddha who took three countless aeons to become a fully enlightened being as it's mentioned in the Parchin texts by Panchen as studied in Drepung Loseling and Dialectical School in McLeod Ganj Dharamsala (No I don't believe Panchen was a previous life of Shugden-so let's not go there please).

Why don't you promote something that the whole wide world of Buddhism accept? Shakyamuni Buddha is a perfect Buddha free of all obscurations and perfect in any aspect according to all texts, all sutras, Kangyur, Tengyur, all lineages, all schools of Buddhism?

Why then follow a Vajrayana tradition which focuses on deities other than Shakyamuni? Why practice the Guru yogas of Padmasambhava, Tsongkapa, etc? if Shakyamuni Buddha is the perfect Buddha (which he is by the way, but not the only one), why are there so many different schools and lineages of Buddhism, each focusing on a DIFFERENT core practice? Yet none of them are disputing the fact that Shakyamuni is THE buddha of our time.

Hmm, could it be that different practices are suited for different people hence the variety to choose from. Isnt that why SHAKYAMUNI taught 84,000 different teachings for different minds? And if all Buddhas come from the same pool of enlightened minds, what then is wrong with promoting Dorje Shugden, Palden Lhamo, Shakyamuni, Tsongkhapa or any other Buddha? Should Lamrim teachings be stopped just because Shakyamuni didnt teach them?

[samayakeeper]

It is interesting to read comments of others, some negative, some neutral, some positive. Whatever it is, people are reading and discussing it. I say that is publicity, good or bad, and it is free. The awareness from all these will let people decide what they want to read, hear, say and do. this is democracy unlike the ban enforced by the CTA.

[DharmaSpace]

Why don't you promote something that the whole wide world of Buddhism accept? Shakyamuni Buddha is a perfect Buddha free of all obscurations and perfect in any aspect according to all texts, all sutras, Kangyur, Tengyur, all lineages, all schools of Buddhism?

Well since the time of Shakyamuni buddha there must be people who have achieved enlightenment surely. If Buddhism cannot bring anyone no matter how high quality then Buddhism does not work at all. How can it work?
Hence if there are beings who have gained enlightenment as a result of Buddhist practise then we can definitely promote others like Guru Rinpoche, Lama Tsongkhapa and etc etc. Hence due to that logic we can promote Dorje Shugden as well, as though most of us cannot come out with something new and novel, but that does not mean everyone cannot. To generalize everybody as the same is a fallacy.