Ra Lotsawa who introduced Yamantaka the "demon"

[Namdrol]

Ra Lotsawa (b.1016) is one of the most controversial Buddhist teachers in Tibetan history. Was he a hero or a villain? His tradition boasts that he killed/murdered thirteen Lamas - many of them famous. Ra Lotsawa is also responsible for popularizing many Vajrabhairava (Yamantaka) and Krishna Yamari traditions of practice.

Well, Yamantaka the "demon" then is now the Buddha, likewise Dorje Shugden the "demon" now will also become the Buddha later, make sense?

[bambi]

Ooohhhh..... Yes, it makes sense to me. I've always believed that there are other reasons behind Dorje Shugden ban. I believe because I am seeing it with my own eyes. The ban brought knowledge to the people around the world. I have friends of other faith who asked me about Dorje Shugden and His history. China erected Dorje Shugden's statues all over and people who are practicing knows He is NOT a demon based on facts.

Ra Lotsawa is definitely a HERO just like the Dalai Lama!

[jessicajameson]

Yes, Ra Lotsawa did claim to have killed 13 people (and claimed it was through magic battles!), but he also did use most of his money to build and restore many, many monasteries and like what Ensapa says, it was Ro Lotsawa who popularized Yamantaka's practice. Also, according to Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, many monasteries (maybe inc Namgyal Dratsang) engage in the practice of Yamantaka that comes from Ra Lotsawa’s instructions.

Controversy really hooks people in, either through curiosity or by feeding on our samsaric rebellious nature.

It's odd how people will listen a "murderer" and not... the 5th Dalai Lama.

[jeremyg]

Yes, Ra Lotsawa did claim to have killed 13 people (and claimed it was through magic battles!), but he also did use most of his money to build and restore many, many monasteries and like what Ensapa says, it was Ro Lotsawa who popularized Yamantaka's practice. Also, according to Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, many monasteries (maybe inc Namgyal Dratsang) engage in the practice of Yamantaka that comes from Ra Lotsawa’s instructions.

Controversy really hooks people in, either through curiosity or by feeding on our samsaric rebellious nature.

It's odd how people will listen a "murderer" and not... the 5th Dalai Lama.

Yeah I fully agree. Sometimes in samsara, news, or a huge great controversy is needed before people read about it. Sometimes something so bad needs to be done before people take interest. Sad. But true. We can look back into stories like this to give us hope that the Shugden ban is for a higher purpose, and much good will come out of it. Huge benefit must have come from Ra Lotsawa killing 13 lamas, otherwise it is inconceivable as to how he became a buddha.

"Its the same case as killing one to save many."

[Zhalmed Pawo]

It's odd how people will listen a "murderer" and not... the 5th Dalai Lama.

The Great Fifth was not a murderer, he was a genocidal destructor, giving orders to crush the skulls of babies (of the wrongly side) into smatters, as even eggs are crushed against rocks.

Ever since, the Tibetans have listened to the voice and the opinion of the Dalai Lamas. Mass-murderers DO get a mass-audience.

(And to those who ask sources, I tell ya, find them yourselves. You would not believe me anyway.  )

[vajratruth]

How very interesting! Ro Losawa Dorje Drag was one of Trijang Rinpoche's former reincarnations. And it also appears that Trijang Rinpoche (who was Atisha himself in one of his previous reincarnations) has an effective way of drawing focus to a powerful deity via "controversy" and introducing the deity into mass acceptance at the right time.

Ro Lotsawa did many great things including renovating temples such as Samye, Tibet's first monastery, sponsored copying of scriptures and paid for translations as well as built temples.

Yamantaka was deemed as a "demon" as Dorje Shugden is now accused to be. But both are recognized Buddhas in fact. Both Yamantaka and Dorje Shugden were "controversial" deities and in both cases the "controversy" brought the Buddha's into the limelight and into people's minds.

One more interesting point is how Trijang Rinpoche has had a long history collaborating with Avalokitesvara (Dalai Lama) in spreading the Dharma though the most effective means. Below I have copied an extract of H.E. Dagpo Rinpoche's speech as he spoke of the close relationship between Trijang Rinpoche and the Dalai Lamas, present and past:

"To accomplish this, both of you have shown yourselves capable of every conceivable kind of relationship. You have alternated the role of Master with that of disciple, the role of donor with that of chaplain, parent, friend, or servant.

From the immense ocean of deeds that you have thus carried out together, I will take a very small drop, a drop no bigger than the pearl that sparkles at the tip of a human hair, but quite enough to inspire faith. Everyone knows that our Tibet has long benefitted from the Lord of the World Avalokite?vara’s caring protection.

He appeared at different times as king or as minister, as learned pandit or as a complete siddha. Each time, he made the light of religion and culture shine brightly so as to dispel the darkness that enveloped Tibet, and each time you were at his side.

In the eighth century when Avalokite?vara manifested as the great king Trisong Detsen, you, Rinpoche, were the pandit ??ntarak?ita, the Indian monk who brought and established in Tibet the tradition of vows and religious commitment which form the basis of Buddha’s Teachings. It was you who brought to light the vast and profound systems, while assuming the shape of the victorious Padmasambhava, first among the Tantrikas. As such, you overcame the obstacles that stood in the way of spreading the Dharma on earth. It was you also who passed the profound and secret teachings to the King and his ministers (how lucky they were!) and thus justified their waiting.

When the good qualities of human beings and the doctrine declined, you were the second Buddha, well known by the name of Ati?a D?pa?k?ra ?r?jñ?na. During the middle of the eleventh century you founded the Kadampa tradition with the help of his spiritual son Dromtönpa Gyalwé Jungne, who was none other than Avalokite?vara.

In order to consolidate and spread that tradition, you soon reappeared under the name of Lang-ri Thangpa Dorje Senge, well known as the eminent guardian of bodhicitta, in other words, a bodhisattva.

Some time afterwards, the good qualities of human beings diminished yet again, and the doctrine underwent another decline. You immediately assumed the shape of the second Buddha Je Tsongkhapa. That time your disciple was Avalokite?vara, later considered the First Dalai Lama. Together you took it upon yourselves to spread and expand the Teachings of the Buddha throughout the entire country.

Shortly afterwards, you were Mönlam Pelwa, one of the First Dalai Lama’s main disciples. You succeeded yourself, becoming the eighth Ganden Tripa, that is, the eighth head of the Gelugpa school.

Later on, as the head of the Kagyupa order, you were the eighth Karmapa, Mikyö Dorje, close friend of the Second Dalai Lama Gendun Gyatso.

When you returned to the school of the Nyingmapas in the seventeenth century, you were the dazzlingly brilliant light with the name of Zurchen Chöying Rangdröl, one of the Fifth Dalai Lama Ngawang Gyatso’s principal Masters.

Next, during two consecutive lives, you again took charge of the Gelug school: you were the sixty-ninth Ganden Tripa, Trichen Jangchub Chöpel, who was also the tutor of the Ninth Dalai Lama Lungtog Gyatso, and later the eighty-fifth Ganden Tripa, Trichen Lobsang Tsultrim.

And now we come to your immediate predecessor Kyabje Yongdzin Trijang Dorje Chang Chenpo, who for forty years was assistant and then tutor of the Fourteenth Dalai Lama.

Here you have a brief reminder of how and for how long you and the Buddha Avalokite?vara have been doing significant and enduring work for the benefit of sentient beings"


http://www.tbiusa.org/trijangdorjechang/biography/dagpospeech

[Ensapa]

Great, powerful and extremely beneficial Yidams tend to have very controversial ways of spreading. If Ra Lotsawa's actions were negative, his teachings would have been destroyed by now. In Liberation of the Palm of your Hand, Pabongkha Rinpoche states that even he had to go to hell for the duration of a ball of yarn falls onto the floor (which is only like, 1-2 seconds?) That alone shows you that he is an accomplished master.

Guru Rinpoche himself killed a few people during his time as those people were about to commit a lot of negativity and he killed them to prevent that from happening. Perhaps Ra Lotsawa did it for the same reason a well? If these people were alive they might have caused a lot of harm to themselves and others and the best thing to do was for them to be killed and take another rebirth instead of going to the hells and dragging a lot of people with them?

We have been conditioned by society that killing is wrong. From a bigger picture, killing is not wrong as long as the intention is to benefit others. And by bigger picture, I mean attaining enlightenment or a certain degree of Bodhicitta and Shunyata. So I don't find him killing people as controversial because from the namtars of other masters like Guru Rinpoche and a few other mahasiddhas, I can see that killing itself is not a big thing if it was for the benefit of the many but it also depends on who is doing it. Certainly not me, but I don't see anything wrong when highly attained masters do it.

There are also stories of Yamantaka practitioners who became a hungry ghost in the shape of their Yidam and eventually become very harmful to beings instead of beneficial. One tried to follow Atisha to Tibet and Atisha had to pacify him so that he would remain in india. If that was how Ra Lotsawa ended up as, then only i would see that his actions are negative. On the contrary, he ended up as one of our lineage masters, Trijang Rinpoche and his teachings are still practiced today. 

[Zhalmed Pawo]

We have been conditioned by society that killing is wrong. From a bigger picture, killing is not wrong as long as the intention is to benefit others. And by bigger picture, I mean attaining enlightenment or a certain degree of Bodhicitta and Shunyata. So I don't find him killing people as controversial because from the namtars of other masters like Guru Rinpoche and a few other mahasiddhas, I can see that killing itself is not a big thing if it was for the benefit of the many but it also depends on who is doing it. Certainly not me, but I don't see anything wrong when highly attained masters do it.

And considering that you are not capable of saying who is or isn't enlightened, you'll have to merely follow the flock, and thereby label murderers or mass-murderers as holy men if the consensus so sayeth.

Or are you capable of private moral judgement?

Tell us.

[Tenzin Gyatso]

We have been conditioned by society that killing is wrong. From a bigger picture, killing is not wrong as long as the intention is to benefit others. And by bigger picture, I mean attaining enlightenment or a certain degree of Bodhicitta and Shunyata. So I don't find him killing people as controversial because from the namtars of other masters like Guru Rinpoche and a few other mahasiddhas, I can see that killing itself is not a big thing if it was for the benefit of the many but it also depends on who is doing it. Certainly not me, but I don't see anything wrong when highly attained masters do it.

And considering that you are not capable of saying who is or isn't enlightened, you'll have to merely follow the flock, and thereby label murderers or mass-murderers as holy men if the consensus so sayeth.

Or are you capable of private moral judgement?

Tell us.

You are against everyone it seems. (LOL) What's up? This is just a forum man. We are just debating. Relax.

[Zhalmed Pawo]

You are against everyone it seems. (LOL) What's up? This is just a forum man. We are just debating. Relax.

Could we have a debate if there would not be an opponent?  As most here try to avoid any debate, someone has to take the log of burden onto his shoulders. 

[Tenzin Gyatso]

You are against everyone it seems. (LOL) What's up? This is just a forum man. We are just debating. Relax.

Could we have a debate if there would not be an opponent?  As most here try to avoid any debate, someone has to take the log of burden onto his shoulders. 

Hey what you say is cool. I accept. How can there be a debate without an opponent. I like that. You should really come to Dharamsala to study at the Library or Dialectic school. Great classes. I've been here for last ten years. Lots of teachings and dharma daily on a curriculum if you have the time or as a guest student. Not expensive at all. 

[Dolce Vita]

I strongly believe in Karma, a person cannot be murdered if they do not have the Karma to have that consequences. If the 'murderer' "is not someone with attainment, the murderer should not have been reincarnated again and again. Since a an enlightened being can have many emanations at any one time (like how Manjushri did), could it be that those people who were murdered in East Lotsawa case and Dorje Shugden incidents were the emanations of some enlightened beings?

[DharmaSpace]

I have heard of another story whereby the Lama who first introduced Yamantaka to the Tibetans  and the people around him thought Yamantaka was a demon. And many people were against this lama and probably was pressuring him to give up the practise. But he persevered and showed the people around what kind of qualities he had as a practitioner and eventually the people were convinced that Yamantaka is a buddha due to this practitioners's conduct.  I am not aware who that lama is.

Now in the 21st century it is up to the practitioners of Dorje Shugden to show the kind of quality that comes about from a practitioner fo Dorje Shudgen that the practitioners is devoted to the dharma, has great effort, kind, works on his selfishness and etc. Then it will be very clear Dorje Shugden practitioners real practitioners of the dharma. 

I dont know why Ra Lotsawa killed so many adversaries. I am not even sure the why the crazy wisdom or read any justification or rationale from it, but he was one of the key lamas who brought over he Yamantaka practices to Tibet.

[Zhalmed Pawo]

I have heard of another story whereby the Lama who first introduced Yamantaka to the Tibetans  and the people around him thought Yamantaka was a demon. And many people were against this lama and probably was pressuring him to give up the practise.

Je Tsongkhapa practiced Yamantaka a well, and due to that, some Lamas accused him of being a demon worshiper.

It seems that Tibetans have always had problems telling Buddhas and demons apart.

[Ensapa]

And considering that you are not capable of saying who is or isn't enlightened, you'll have to merely follow the flock, and thereby label murderers or mass-murderers as holy men if the consensus so sayeth.

Or are you capable of private moral judgement?

Tell us.

sure I can't tell who is enlightened or not, but i can see and check based on the results from their actions. If the results from their actions are positive and brings  benefit to others, they they are enlightened. Example, Tilopa ate live fish and made Naropa do things that we would not consider morally correct. But the result of that is Naropa gained enlightenment and so did most of his students. What does that tell you? Can it be possible that a negative person can produce Buddhas or wholesome individuals? Thinking time!

Lol, you say you want to debate but, no disrespect intended, you seem to lack the proper tools for reasoning and logic and also lack knowledge to do so. Its not that people here avoid debates, but the way you talk shows that you don't know much. Even when you debate your points have to be backed up with logic and reasoning, like an algebra equation. You have to explain why is the solution X + Y and how did it get there, step by step instead of asserting that X + Y is the answer when everyone else says Y +Z is the answer and you need to explain why it is not. Not in short, crude and sometimes rude lines.

And you need to to all that without twisting the scriptures. You could do what Tenzin Gyatso has suggested and learn up logic and debate before you come back because Buddhist debate isn't trolling or provoking people's responses for fun, or proving them wrong for fun. It is out of compassion to change wrong view. If you do it incorrectly with the wrong motivation, obviously everyone can feel it and they choose not to engage with you. Who would want to feed the troll?

Aslo, most of the debate points that you present are 1) not respectful 2) shows that you did not think it through before you posted 3) are done for the sake of it. How is anyone going to take you seriously? You need to take everyone else seriously if you want to be taken seriously, that is just something so basic..if you don't you shouldn't complain that nobody wants to debate with you. I know this is "just a forum on the net", but there are real people typing and thinking behind the keyboard, the posts here are written by real breathing and living humans who think and have emotions, so we still need to be respectful to each other. capiche?