How come NKT never invite the current Trijang Rinpoche?

[Tenzin Gyatso]

The Geshe in Dharamsala said that NKT students do not get along with anyone else. They don't even get along with their own fellow Shugden practitioners. We can see clearly from this forum. (Why is that?)

They have never invited the current Trijang Rinpoche to any NKT centres around the world. This is really strange.
They have no pictures, writings or any links to current Trijang Rinpoche or his centre. Even Gaden Trisur Lungrik Namgyal has endorsed the current Trijang I read. (I don't agree with Trisur joining Shar Gaden though)
Even HHDL has invited Trijang Rinpoche to meet him on several occasions.
Geshe Kelsang was expelled from Sera.
No books are allowed from any other teacher in NKT.
NKT has no dealings with any monasteries, other Buddhist organizations around the world. They haven't any relations with everyone that is within their own lineage. Is that good or bad? Is that Gelug exclusiveness or Shugden taught them to be this way?

When the Geshe in Dharamsala told me this last year, it really made me think deeper.

Also it is well known Geshe Kelsang had a huge fallout with his uncle or cousin which was the so called oracle of Shugden. How can a senior elderly Geshe and Oracle have a fallout and never communicate again. This fallout prompted Geshe Kelsang to say he don't accept oracles anymore. But then why use the long life prayer by the oracle. Why deny the oracle lama himself but accept his works (long life prayer)?

All this sounds bad, but I am not trying to target NKT but I am trying to say SHUGDEN CAUSES ALL THIS. Shugden creates the rifts, the disharmony, the arguing and all the wrong results. HHDL said this clearly many times, in the beginning Shugden helps to draw you in, then it becomes negative showing Shugden's true nature.

Again I am not against Geshe Kelsang per se,I just don't agree with his wrong Shugden practice. He is a great scholar and has everything going for him. Shugden smeared his name, brought him down and all the Tibetans in Tibetans communities really do not respect Geshe-la. That's too bad. I use to read his books years ago and thought they were good. NKT can do better without Shugden. 

[Lineageholder]

The Geshe in Dharamsala said that NKT students do not get along with anyone else. They don't even get along with their own fellow Shugden practitioners. We can see clearly from this forum. (Why is that?)

They have never invited the current Trijang Rinpoche to any NKT centres around the world. This is really strange.
They have no pictures, writings or any links to current Trijang Rinpoche or his centre. Even Gaden Trisur Lungrik Namgyal has endorsed the current Trijang I read. (I don't agree with Trisur joining Shar Gaden though)
Even HHDL has invited Trijang Rinpoche to meet him on several occasions.
Geshe Kelsang was expelled from Sera.
No books are allowed from any other teacher in NKT.
NKT has no dealings with any monasteries, other Buddhist organizations around the world. They haven't any relations with everyone that is within their own lineage. Is that good or bad? Is that Gelug exclusiveness or Shugden taught them to be this way?

When the Geshe in Dharamsala told me this last year, it really made me think deeper.

Also it is well known Geshe Kelsang had a huge fallout with his uncle or cousin which was the so called oracle of Shugden. How can a senior elderly Geshe and Oracle have a fallout and never communicate again. This fallout prompted Geshe Kelsang to say he don't accept oracles anymore. But then why use the long life prayer by the oracle. Why deny the oracle lama himself but accept his works (long life prayer)?

All this sounds bad, but I am not trying to target NKT but I am trying to say SHUGDEN CAUSES ALL THIS. Shugden creates the rifts, the disharmony, the arguing and all the wrong results. HHDL said this clearly many times, in the beginning Shugden helps to draw you in, then it becomes negative showing Shugden's true nature.

Again I am not against Geshe Kelsang per se,I just don't agree with his wrong Shugden practice. He is a great scholar and has everything going for him. Shugden smeared his name, brought him down and all the Tibetans in Tibetans communities really do not respect Geshe-la. That's too bad. I use to read his books years ago and thought they were good. NKT can do better without Shugden.

Hi Tenzin,

It's the Dalai Lama who has created all this division and disharmony.  It's a well known fact that many years ago, from 1978 onwards when the Dalai Lama stopped doing his Shugden practice, he would not visit Manjushri Institute which was owned by the FPMT because Lama Yeshe and Geshe Kelsang were strong Dorje Shugden practitioners.  He came on a visit to the UK and visited the Samye Ling Kagyu centre in
Scotland, but passed by the door of Manjushri Institute.  This is explained here:

http://www.newkadampatruth.org/smear-nkt-has-no-pictures-of-the-dalai-lama-in-their-centers#kadampa

If the Dalai Lama had not banned the practice of Shugden, then maybe NKT would have been a Tibetan Buddhist tradition today, revering the Dalai Lama, but because he was sectarian and divisive, this was not possible.  Geshe Kelsang had no choice but to set up an independent Modern tradition of Buddhism with no links to the Dalai Lama.

In short, the Dalai Lama's sectarian ban has created the rift, not Dorje Shugden.

[Namdrol]

All this sounds bad, but I am not trying to target NKT but I am trying to say SHUGDEN CAUSES ALL THIS.

This is a complete sweeping statement, the Karmapas are having more troubles among themselves, they have not 2 but three contenders to the Karmapa's seat, and very much divided due to this, so according to your logic, MAHAKALA causes all this???

NKT has their own problems just like any other big Buddhist organizations, FPMT's Lama Zopa is ill, and their lineage lama the reincarnation of Lama Yeshe - Lama Osel, disrobed and is said to be doing movies etc. that seems "samsaric", Lama Zopa is a great lama with great attainments but he is now quite ill, and I think these problems in FPMT are more serious than "NKT not inviting Trijang Rinpoche" and "NKT has fallout with oracle", so according to your logic, Palden Lhamo (or whoever FPMT's protector is) is to be blamed?

Your logic is exactly CTA's lame tactic, when things go wrong, blame it on someone else, like when Tibet issues with China go wrong, blame it on Shugden.

NKT is doing far much better than most Buddhist organizations in the world.

[Ensapa]

If Shugden created disharmony and rifts, then this forum would not have existed and everyone here will be biting at each other's necks. NKT will be filled with politics and there will be partisans even within NKT. Nichiren Daishonin who started the Nichiren school of Buddhism in Japan built the foundations of his tradition by criticizing other Buddhist traditions during his time. The result of that was that over time, 1000 years later, his tradition split a total of 4 times: Nichiren, Nichiren Shu, Nichiren Shoshu, and now Sokka Gakkai. Each of these traditions are clean cut from each other although the base teachings are the same. Not too long ago Sokka Gakkai and Nichiren Shoshu was embroiled in legal battles and Sokka Gakkai used to be the lay division of Nichiren Shoshu. If NKT becomes like this then yes, Dorje Shugden is partisan but if they are still together then it proves that Dorje Shugden does not and cannot split the sangha as what some people claim. I am not saying that Nichiren is bad or wrong, but that is the method he chose to spread the Dharma and that is the result. Different masters will use different methods to do so.

The monks of Shar Ganden and Serpom are still together and they have not splitted from each other. That is more than enough proof to show that Dorje Shugden does not cause any disharmony or whatever. In fact his entourage Namkha Barzin is said to help the monastery  grow by causing harmony amongst the sangha in the monastery. So where does all these partisan things come from? Is there definite proof of Dorje Shugden causing disharmony? I have not seen it if there is. The Ban caused obvious disharmony, it was  fine before.

Geshe Keslang is targeting the western and educated people so if he used oracles it would not appeal to some people in that area of the world. So he has to change his methods and approach. I don't see anything wrong with that. It can't be that someone who has written so many books on sutra and tantra, and who has over 1000 centers in the world be negative. So he had to stop using them to suit the minds of his students. As for the current Trijang Rinpoche, perhaps he would not want to interrupt the current incarnation's works or it would be too dangerous. Or even, that it could be hard to accept by some of his students and he does not wish to disturb their minds. Just like a mother knows what's best for her child, a Guru always knows what's best for their students so we are not in a position to judge.

Regarding the isolation of NKT from other centers, it is because they can do it and they have enough people and support to be self sustaining. That is why NKT called themselves new kadampa instead of gelug because they are a new tradition altogether rather than a part of gelugpa. Even if GKG did not practice Dorje Shugden but he had to spread Dharma on such a great scale in the west, he would still do what he is doing today, I believe. I am not too comfortable with NKT as well but I am not judging because if GKG is bad and wrong, it would also mean that Trijang Rinpoche is an ineffective teacher to produce such students. So that is not possible.

Also as TK reminded in another thread, please be sensitive to the NKT posters in this forum. Please consider their feelings and samaya to their Guru.

[Tenzin Gyatso]

The Geshe in Dharamsala said that NKT students do not get along with anyone else. They don't even get along with their own fellow Shugden practitioners. We can see clearly from this forum. (Why is that?)

They have never invited the current Trijang Rinpoche to any NKT centres around the world. This is really strange.
They have no pictures, writings or any links to current Trijang Rinpoche or his centre. Even Gaden Trisur Lungrik Namgyal has endorsed the current Trijang I read. (I don't agree with Trisur joining Shar Gaden though)
Even HHDL has invited Trijang Rinpoche to meet him on several occasions.
Geshe Kelsang was expelled from Sera.
No books are allowed from any other teacher in NKT.
NKT has no dealings with any monasteries, other Buddhist organizations around the world. They haven't any relations with everyone that is within their own lineage. Is that good or bad? Is that Gelug exclusiveness or Shugden taught them to be this way?

When the Geshe in Dharamsala told me this last year, it really made me think deeper.

Also it is well known Geshe Kelsang had a huge fallout with his uncle or cousin which was the so called oracle of Shugden. How can a senior elderly Geshe and Oracle have a fallout and never communicate again. This fallout prompted Geshe Kelsang to say he don't accept oracles anymore. But then why use the long life prayer by the oracle. Why deny the oracle lama himself but accept his works (long life prayer)?

All this sounds bad, but I am not trying to target NKT but I am trying to say SHUGDEN CAUSES ALL THIS. Shugden creates the rifts, the disharmony, the arguing and all the wrong results. HHDL said this clearly many times, in the beginning Shugden helps to draw you in, then it becomes negative showing Shugden's true nature.

Again I am not against Geshe Kelsang per se,I just don't agree with his wrong Shugden practice. He is a great scholar and has everything going for him. Shugden smeared his name, brought him down and all the Tibetans in Tibetans communities really do not respect Geshe-la. That's too bad. I use to read his books years ago and thought they were good. NKT can do better without Shugden.

Hi Tenzin,

It's the Dalai Lama who has created all this division and disharmony.  It's a well known fact that many years ago, from 1978 onwards when the Dalai Lama stopped doing his Shugden practice, he would not visit Manjushri Institute which was owned by the FPMT because Lama Yeshe and Geshe Kelsang were strong Dorje Shugden practitioners.  He came on a visit to the UK and visited the Samye Ling Kagyu centre in
Scotland, but passed by the door of Manjushri Institute.  This is explained here:

http://www.newkadampatruth.org/smear-nkt-has-no-pictures-of-the-dalai-lama-in-their-centers#kadampa

If the Dalai Lama had not banned the practice of Shugden, then maybe NKT would have been a Tibetan Buddhist tradition today, revering the Dalai Lama, but because he was sectarian and divisive, this was not possible.  Geshe Kelsang had no choice but to set up an independent Modern tradition of Buddhism with no links to the Dalai Lama.

In short, the Dalai Lama's sectarian ban has created the rift, not Dorje Shugden.

There are many questions you didn't answer if you don't mind please.

Also I am not surprised HHDL drove past Manjushri's because Geshe Kelsang picked a spirit over a living lama. That was Geshe Kelsang's choice.

Did Geshe Kelsang have a huge fallout with his relative the oracle lama? It's spoken about here in Dharamsala as proof Shugden is a troublemaker. A senior Geshe cannot get along with the oracle??

Why does NKT never invite or mention anything about the currrent incarnation of Trijang Rinpoche? Even the HH Dalai Lama invites Trijang Rinpoche and meets up with him.

[Tenzin Gyatso]

If Shugden created disharmony and rifts, then this forum would not have existed and everyone here will be biting at each other's necks. NKT will be filled with politics and there will be partisans even within NKT. Nichiren Daishonin who started the Nichiren school of Buddhism in Japan built the foundations of his tradition by criticizing other Buddhist traditions during his time. The result of that was that over time, 1000 years later, his tradition split a total of 4 times: Nichiren, Nichiren Shu, Nichiren Shoshu, and now Sokka Gakkai. Each of these traditions are clean cut from each other although the base teachings are the same. Not too long ago Sokka Gakkai and Nichiren Shoshu was embroiled in legal battles and Sokka Gakkai used to be the lay division of Nichiren Shoshu. If NKT becomes like this then yes, Dorje Shugden is partisan but if they are still together then it proves that Dorje Shugden does not and cannot split the sangha as what some people claim. I am not saying that Nichiren is bad or wrong, but that is the method he chose to spread the Dharma and that is the result. Different masters will use different methods to do so.

The monks of Shar Ganden and Serpom are still together and they have not splitted from each other. That is more than enough proof to show that Dorje Shugden does not cause any disharmony or whatever. In fact his entourage Namkha Barzin is said to help the monastery  grow by causing harmony amongst the sangha in the monastery. So where does all these partisan things come from? Is there definite proof of Dorje Shugden causing disharmony? I have not seen it if there is. The Ban caused obvious disharmony, it was  fine before.

Geshe Keslang is targeting the western and educated people so if he used oracles it would not appeal to some people in that area of the world. So he has to change his methods and approach. I don't see anything wrong with that. It can't be that someone who has written so many books on sutra and tantra, and who has over 1000 centers in the world be negative. So he had to stop using them to suit the minds of his students. As for the current Trijang Rinpoche, perhaps he would not want to interrupt the current incarnation's works or it would be too dangerous. Or even, that it could be hard to accept by some of his students and he does not wish to disturb their minds. Just like a mother knows what's best for her child, a Guru always knows what's best for their students so we are not in a position to judge.

Regarding the isolation of NKT from other centers, it is because they can do it and they have enough people and support to be self sustaining. That is why NKT called themselves new kadampa instead of gelug because they are a new tradition altogether rather than a part of gelugpa. Even if GKG did not practice Dorje Shugden but he had to spread Dharma on such a great scale in the west, he would still do what he is doing today, I believe. I am not too comfortable with NKT as well but I am not judging because if GKG is bad and wrong, it would also mean that Trijang Rinpoche is an ineffective teacher to produce such students. So that is not possible.

Also as TK reminded in another thread, please be sensitive to the NKT posters in this forum. Please consider their feelings and samaya to their Guru.

Hey I am totally sensitive to the feelings of NKT posters here. No offence to anyone intended.  I am not against them but the Shugden spirit. But the fact I am against the spirit Shugden practice already makes me seem insensitive already? (LOL) You have to be sensitive to the pro HHDL posters here also (LOL) otherwise how will you get your point across to the 'enemy'?

How will inviting Trijang Rinpoche to NKT disrupt his work?? How can inviting the incarnation of the root guru of Geshe Kelsang be disruptive. Obviously Geshe Kelsang accepts reincarnation. In his book 'Intro to Buddhism' Geshe Kelsang goes on a few pages talking about dreams, etc about the correct identification of his mother's reincarnation. Is that wisdom or mystical?? If Westerners can accept Geshe Kelsang recognizing the incarnation of his mother from his dreams and signs, why not Trijang Rinpoche??? I mean Geshe Kelsang said very clearly he found the incarnation of his mother among his students. And this young girl at a young age can speak Tibetan words like 'kyi' (dog). That is pretty mystical. Geshe Kelsang can have mystical dreams about finding his mother, but the oracle taking trance is not acceptable?
Shugden does not make sense.

Posting about Trijang Rinpoche on NKT sites would be disruptive?  Why?

[Lineageholder]

Did Geshe Kelsang have a huge fallout with his relative the oracle lama? It's spoken about here in Dharamsala as proof Shugden is a troublemaker. A senior Geshe cannot get along with the oracle??

Why does NKT never invite or mention anything about the currrent incarnation of Trijang Rinpoche? Even the HH Dalai Lama invites Trijang Rinpoche and meets up with him.

Here are the answers to your questions:

1.  Kuten Lama, the oracle of Dorje Shugden who was also Geshe-la's uncle visited the West in 1996 where he stayed at a number of centres and did a number of invocations.  In view of the problems that were beginning for Dorje Shugden practitioners at that time, he was invited to stay in England but refused.  He said he wanted to go back to India to his old monastery.  When he returned there, a condition of his being able to stay was that he had to renounce being an oracle of Dorje Shugden and he had to denounce Geshe Kelsang, which he did.  There was no argument between them and the only reason why Kuten Lama did this was under pressure from the Dalai Lama's representatives.  Once again we can see that it wasn't Dorje Shugden that caused the rift but the Dalai Lama's sectarian intolerance of the practice.

The reason why NKT does not recognise and rely on Oracles is not because of some imaginary rift between Geshe Kelsang and his Uncle but because they are not reliable.  Just look at all the problems the Nechung oracle has caused over the years, for example.  He gave the Dalai Lama bad advice (telling him not to leave Tibet) and has been partly responsible for the Dalai Lama's stance on Dorje Shugden.  The Nechung oracle also killed the 13th Dalai Lama by administering the wrong medicine.  Why does the Dalai Lama insist on relying upon this spirit - that doesn't make any sense at all.

2. NKT does not recognise Tulkus - this is in the Internal Rules of the New Kadampa Tradition -International Kadampa Buddhist Union.  Therefore, since we would not recognise even a tulku of Geshe Kelsang it goes without saying that we do not recognise or rely upon any Tulkus in the Tibetan tradition.  Once again, this is nothing against Tulkus, it's just an NKT cultural difference.

[vajralight]

I see mr Gyatso is going for the divide and rule tactics now he has sneaked his way into the forum.
Well ... it's your karma.....

Vajra

[Zach]

I see mr Gyatso is going for the divide and rule tactics now he has sneaked his way into the forum.
Well ... it's your karma.....

Vajra

Well Phayul's shut 

[WisdomBeing]

Here are the answers to your questions:

1.  Kuten Lama, the oracle of Dorje Shugden who was also Geshe-la's uncle visited the West in 1996 where he stayed at a number of centres and did a number of invocations.  In view of the problems that were beginning for Dorje Shugden practitioners at that time, he was invited to stay in England but refused.  He said he wanted to go back to India to his old monastery.  When he returned there, a condition of his being able to stay was that he had to renounce being an oracle of Dorje Shugden and he had to denounce Geshe Kelsang, which he did.  There was no argument between them and the only reason why Kuten Lama did this was under pressure from the Dalai Lama's representatives.  Once again we can see that it wasn't Dorje Shugden that caused the rift but the Dalai Lama's sectarian intolerance of the practice.

The reason why NKT does not recognise and rely on Oracles is not because of some imaginary rift between Geshe Kelsang and his Uncle but because they are not reliable.  Just look at all the problems the Nechung oracle has caused over the years, for example.  He gave the Dalai Lama bad advice (telling him not to leave Tibet) and has been partly responsible for the Dalai Lama's stance on Dorje Shugden.  The Nechung oracle also killed the 13th Dalai Lama by administering the wrong medicine.  Why does the Dalai Lama insist on relying upon this spirit - that doesn't make any sense at all.

I can fully understand why Geshe Kelsang Gyatso would reject the Nechung oracle - or rather Nechung - since the oracle is just the vehicle for the Dharma Protector. Nechung has been notoriously mistaken in his advice so of course it would be perfectly natural to be skeptical. However, i believe that this is because Nechung is unenlightened. As Dorje Shugden is enlightened, his advice via a Dorje Shugden oracle would be accurate - since the Buddha is never wrong.

2. NKT does not recognise Tulkus - this is in the Internal Rules of the New Kadampa Tradition -International Kadampa Buddhist Union.  Therefore, since we would not recognise even a tulku of Geshe Kelsang it goes without saying that we do not recognise or rely upon any Tulkus in the Tibetan tradition.  Once again, this is nothing against Tulkus, it's just an NKT cultural difference.

I can also understand that the NKT will have its rules but could you please explain the logic behind Geshe Kelsang's directive on this? What is the perceived threat? If Geshe Kelsang recognises his teacher's incarnation and when Geshe Kelsang passes away, his teacher recognises the new incarnation, then there is an authority on who is the real incarnation, isn't there? I do recall someone telling me that the reason why Geshe Kelsang does not want the tulku system is because it is open to abuse, especially after Geshe Kelsang passes on. Which is why i suggested that it could be Trijang Rinpoche who recognises the incarnation, which would then make the identification unmistakable.

Anyway just some thoughts.

Many thanks.

[hope rainbow]

Nothing here proves that Dorje Shugden is a spirit and creates dis-harmony.

All I see is a debate about another Guru's policies, about another center's policies.

NKT does not use oracles and does not want to continue the tulku system.
They never said that the oracles were not genuine.
They never said that the tulku system was wrong.
All they stated is that at NKT, they will not rely on oracles and will not continue the tulku system and they have their very good reasons (such were discussed on this forum in another topic).

Therefore, they do not invite the current incarnation of Trijang Rinpoche.
Maybe they will invite him at one point, it is up to them.
Maybe they will recognize a tulku at one point, maybe they will use oracles at one point... They very well could change the policy, it is only a policy. Maybe they'll never change it... I don't see the point here with regards to the reliance on Dorje Shugden...

Did Geshe Kelsang Gyatso ask from his students to give up the lamrim? No
Did Geshe Kelsang Gyatso ask from his students to give up the 50 stanzas of Guru devotion? No
Did Geshe Kelsang Gyatso ask from his students to give up the lojong? No
Did Geshe Kelsang Gyatso ask from his students to give up the bodhisattva vows? No

So... What are we taling about here to justify "Dorje Shugden's wrong doing"?
Are we talking about GKG not talking to his uncle? Maybe he is protecting him by not talking to him...
Are we debating the relevance of the tulku system in a Western world? So what...
Are we taking about the relevance of oracles in a western world? So what...

Nothing proves that Dorje Shugden is a spirit.
Everything proves that he is an enlightened protector.

If one's root guru is HHDL and he asks one to stop the practice, then one must do what has to be done, but in anycase, we should let others practice a recognized Buddha. No wrong can arise from that, yet plenty of wrong can arise from severing our samaya with our teacher or severing other people's samaya with their teachers and practices.

[Lineageholder]

I can also understand that the NKT will have its rules but could you please explain the logic behind Geshe Kelsang's directive on this? What is the perceived threat? If Geshe Kelsang recognises his teacher's incarnation and when Geshe Kelsang passes away, his teacher recognises the new incarnation, then there is an authority on who is the real incarnation, isn't there? I do recall someone telling me that the reason why Geshe Kelsang does not want the tulku system is because it is open to abuse, especially after Geshe Kelsang passes on. Which is why i suggested that it could be Trijang Rinpoche who recognises the incarnation, which would then make the identification unmistakable.

Dear WisdomBeing,

Geshe Kelsang has never given explicit reasons why he did not include the recognition of Tulkus within the NKT, so these are my thoughts, not his.

A Teacher should stand on their own merits, not their title and lineage.  Because the main focus of Kadampa Buddhism is the teaching and not the Teacher, there's no need for a reincarnation lineage in order for the teaching to be propagated.   We can choose to see everyone who teaches as an emanation of Je Tsongkhapa and because Geshe Kelsang has transmitted the whole lineage of Je Tsongkhapa's teachings to a great number of students over many years, and he has written many beautiful and highly qualified books that support three special study programmes,  there are many eminent and qualified Teachers with great experience of lamrim and HYT in the NKT.  Thus, the teaching lineage will continue to be passed on from generation to generation in accordance with Geshe Kelsang's intention. 

Tulkus are therefore not required in the New Kadampa Tradition.  Not wishing to criticise, but the Tulku system in Tibetan Buddhism is also open to mistake and corruption, with those who are given this title having certain privileges which are obstructions to seeing oneself as 'the lowest of all' as Geshe Langri Tangpa says in Eight Verses of Training the Mind.  We try to follow the example of these great and Holy Spiritual Masters by remaining humble and just trying to help others without having a special name or position in society.  There is also great danger that when you assign a high spiritual title to someone at birth, that person is then regarded as special and a blind faith develops that makes some people follow that person regardless of what they say and do, as in the case of the present Dalai Lama.  These people may be misled, following the Teacher and not the teaching.  In the Internal Rules of the NKT, there are clear guidelines for the responsibilities of the General Spiritual Director (the head of the tradition) and clear guidance on how this person can be dismissed if they do not fulfil their function or cause the tradition to degenerate.  In this way, NKT is completely democratic and no one person can be in charge as in having unassailable power, which I think is a good thing.

Ihere will doubtless be many emanations of holy beings in the NKT, as there are in Tibetan Buddhism, but there's no need for these beings to be formally recognised as their special qualities will doubtless become apparent in time.

[triesa]

All this sounds bad, but I am not trying to target NKT but I am trying to say SHUGDEN CAUSES ALL THIS. Shugden creates the rifts, the disharmony, the arguing and all the wrong results. HHDL said this clearly many times, in the beginning Shugden helps to draw you in, then it becomes negative showing Shugden's true nature.

Again I am not against Geshe Kelsang per se,I just don't agree with his wrong Shugden practice. He is a great scholar and has everything going for him. Shugden smeared his name, brought him down and all the Tibetans in Tibetans communities really do not respect Geshe-la. That's too bad. I use to read his books years ago and thought they were good. NKT can do better without Shugden.

Dear Tenzin Gyatso,

I guess your motive is pretty clear, whatever you are trying to build up.....the ultimate objective you wanted to say is that Shugden is bad, Shugden is a bad practice that casued NKT members isolating themselves from the rest, NKT members do not get along with anyone including even Shugden practitioners.

Have you looked into the fact that GKG's centers are growing in numbers all over the world? who is helping all these to happen? Shugden is.

Like what HopeRainbow has said, the core practice in NKT is still the "Lamrim", "50 stanzes of Guru Devotion", "Lojong"," Bodhisattva vows", all that are relevant in the Tsongkhapa lineage, so is Shugden bad then?

I think we should look at whether Shugden is bad or Shugden's practice is bad by seeing how many people are benefitted from the Lama or the centers under him. In the case of NKT and Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, the answer is pretty clear, isn't it?

So why not rejoice with this and not be bothered by "how come NKT never invite the current Trijang Rinpoche?"

[DharmaSpace]

It would be interesting to see how NKT faces the future without relying on other lamas except the one that are promoted within their own organisation. Perhaps that is the future. NKT is easily one of the most widespread Buddhist organisation in the world if not the largest. Do the monks and nuns of NKT go for a centralised training like how it is in the monasteries?

IMHO I think NKT is missing out to support the up and coming high lamas of the Gelugpa order, to provide them the support so that these lamas can exceed their potential in the coming years, despite NKT claims to be a separate tradition but it came out of the Gelug. I personall feel there is only benefit if the dharma flourishes no matter what tradition right?

[tsangpakarpo]

The Geshe in Dharamsala said that NKT students do not get along with anyone else. They don't even get along with their own fellow Shugden practitioners. We can see clearly from this forum. (Why is that?)

They have never invited the current Trijang Rinpoche to any NKT centres around the world. This is really strange.
They have no pictures, writings or any links to current Trijang Rinpoche or his centre. Even Gaden Trisur Lungrik Namgyal has endorsed the current Trijang I read. (I don't agree with Trisur joining Shar Gaden though)
Even HHDL has invited Trijang Rinpoche to meet him on several occasions.
Geshe Kelsang was expelled from Sera.
No books are allowed from any other teacher in NKT.
NKT has no dealings with any monasteries, other Buddhist organizations around the world. They haven't any relations with everyone that is within their own lineage. Is that good or bad? Is that Gelug exclusiveness or Shugden taught them to be this way?

When the Geshe in Dharamsala told me this last year, it really made me think deeper.

Also it is well known Geshe Kelsang had a huge fallout with his uncle or cousin which was the so called oracle of Shugden. How can a senior elderly Geshe and Oracle have a fallout and never communicate again. This fallout prompted Geshe Kelsang to say he don't accept oracles anymore. But then why use the long life prayer by the oracle. Why deny the oracle lama himself but accept his works (long life prayer)?

All this sounds bad, but I am not trying to target NKT but I am trying to say SHUGDEN CAUSES ALL THIS. Shugden creates the rifts, the disharmony, the arguing and all the wrong results. HHDL said this clearly many times, in the beginning Shugden helps to draw you in, then it becomes negative showing Shugden's true nature.

Again I am not against Geshe Kelsang per se,I just don't agree with his wrong Shugden practice. He is a great scholar and has everything going for him. Shugden smeared his name, brought him down and all the Tibetans in Tibetans communities really do not respect Geshe-la. That's too bad. I use to read his books years ago and thought they were good. NKT can do better without Shugden.

My dear Tenzin Gyatso,

I really admire your effort to come out with so many excuses just to defame Dorje Shugden's practice.  Obviously no one here agrees with you. Not because we're all pro-Dorje Shugden but because we all have common sense.

Is there really a problem NKT has no affiliations with other centers? Well, they are a huge organization themselves, they can take care of themselves and they have their own practices. So, it is their right if they choose to run their center the way they want it to be.

How do you know they did not invite Trijang Rinpoche? How do you know they have not met Trijang Rinpoche? and so what if Trijang Rinpoche have not visit any of the NKT centers? It does not mean He will not visit them in the future.

Also, representatives from both parties might have met before behind closed doors...why judge?

Please don't relate everything to the Shugden issue..don't blame everything on Dorje Shugden. The fact that many people in Dharamsala do not endorse Shugden does not mean that everyone else in the world are against Dorje Shugden.

Dorje Shugden did not bring Geshe Kelsang down, in fact they worked together to bring Dharma to every corner of the world. This is very obvious and can be seen with our naked eyes. A small fraction of Tibetans do not support Geshe Kelsang but many other people in the world do.

But that saying so, not everything can be seen with the naked eyes..so don't come to a conclusion so soon that NKT has no relations with Trijang Rinpoche or any other Dorje Shugden practitioners. Like I said, even if they did not have any relations before, it does not mean they won't in the future.