Breaking of Refuge Vows by Downloading?

[Manjushri]

I was just speaking with a friend today over dinner and we were on the topic of downloading music and movies, softwares and games. Whilst I was expressing how great it is having been able to do this all of my life, at my convenience and ease, my mate raised a very valid point:

She said..if you are downloading, doesn't that mean you are stealing? And if you are stealing, doesn't that mean that you are breaking your refuge vow?

I was left dumbfounded for a while, because it did make sense. I guess because I am intentionally downloading, this means that my actions of "stealing" is intentional therefore the intention,motivation, action, result is based on my benefit, at the loss and damage of the rights of the owner.

What do you guys think?.. Is downloading a form of stealing, thus breaking one's vow?

[Positive Change]

I was just speaking with a friend today over dinner and we were on the topic of downloading music and movies, softwares and games. Whilst I was expressing how great it is having been able to do this all of my life, at my convenience and ease, my mate raised a very valid point:

She said..if you are downloading, doesn't that mean you are stealing? And if you are stealing, doesn't that mean that you are breaking your refuge vow?

I was left dumbfounded for a while, because it did make sense. I guess because I am intentionally downloading, this means that my actions of "stealing" is intentional therefore the intention,motivation, action, result is based on my benefit, at the loss and damage of the rights of the owner.

What do you guys think?.. Is downloading a form of stealing, thus breaking one's vow?

This is most interesting! I never would have thought it to be but what you say does make sense. We do have the intent, the action is complete and we rejoice in the having done it... OMB!

However, I would like to think that I have not caused any "pain" to the owner of the rights as I would normally not have been able to hear the music or watch the movie otherwise. Perhaps the popularity of the music or movie is further enhanced as it reaches far more people than regular radio or sales... hhmmm... I don't know to be honest.

I am not sure how this pans out in the grand scheme of things really and would appreciate some feedback as I think this is a very valid question and definitely worth exploring.

[Tammy]

Downloading music, movies, etc. over the Internet without paying for them - IS stealing!

There is a term for this - infringing interlectual properties, and this is a serious offcense, punishable by fine or jail term.

We can argue, "by downloading for free, I am not causing any 'harm' to the authors or artistes, hence not a crime." you are wrong! Your action actually causes lost in income for the authors and artistes who created the films or music. They suffer from lost of loyalty which is the main source of income.

Think before you hit the "download" button

[Q]

I think it entirely depends on how u download it...

When we talk about stealing music or videos etc... it is more in the context of intentionally ripping the music off a website when it is clearly for sale. Using certain websites or programs to capture the content without permission... that would be stealing.

If it's p2p, then it is actually like buying a dvd and inviting your friends over to watch it. Coz it is counted as sharing rather than downloading. So i believe it is a valid to download music via this way.

Also, as long as we do not use whatever it is we downloaded to generate a source of income for our own selfish use... I don't see any harm there... of course I could be wrong, and if i am someone please enlighten me!

[tsangpakarpo]

In my opinion, I do not think this is a case of stealing. As most of the videos/music are uploaded with no fees and these people charge no fees, it is just a case of SHARING.

For example, I upload a song to the internet for other people to download because I think it will help them to relax after a long day at work. It is my choice to upload the video to help others. So if other people download the song and listens to it for relaxation purposes, do we consider this as stealing? Obviously not because this song was uploaded willingly be a kind person who wants to share.

[AnneQ]

Downloading music, movies, etc. over the Internet without paying for them - IS stealing!

There is a term for this - infringing interlectual properties, and this is a serious offcense, punishable by fine or jail term.

We can argue, "by downloading for free, I am not causing any 'harm' to the authors or artistes, hence not a crime." you are wrong! Your action actually causes lost in income for the authors and artistes who created the films or music. They suffer from lost of loyalty which is the main source of income.

Think before you hit the "download" button

My first instinct would be to agree with Tammy. After all what is the difference between downloading music and movies from the net, and buying pirated music albums and DVD movies? And if we look at it honestly, aren't we all guilty of it?

[jeremyg]

This is a topic that I'm sure can attract a lot of debate.

For me, downloading something illegally can be considered stealing. At least by law it is stealing. Many sharing sites are being shut down because what they do is considered illegal. But then again maybe the motivation behind it also determines whether you are breaking your vows. If your motivation is solely to steal from them, resell their movies and make money from nothing, then I am quite sure that this would break your vows.

But if we are downloading to a film, or music with someone to help them, by helping them relax, by helping them learn something good; then it would be a different motivation and perhaps it would not be considered stealing, but sharing.

In my world, the western world, illegal downloading is a criminal offense and you can be fined for it, if not go to jail. However I have heard in the asian world, many people do this and get away with it.

In my opinion there is no clear and cut answer as to whether you will break your vows. It is stealing in some ways, but in a very indirect aspect. And in some ways it is not stealing, because it is available for free, for you to download. It it said that for you to complete the act of stealing, you must have the motivation to steal, the act of trying to steal, the success of the theft, and the rejoicing of your action. I don't see all these steps in illegal downloading.

Let me know what you think. I am interested to know.

[jessicajameson]

I was just speaking with a friend today over dinner and we were on the topic of downloading music and movies, softwares and games. Whilst I was expressing how great it is having been able to do this all of my life, at my convenience and ease, my mate raised a very valid point:

She said..if you are downloading, doesn't that mean you are stealing? And if you are stealing, doesn't that mean that you are breaking your refuge vow?

I was left dumbfounded for a while, because it did make sense. I guess because I am intentionally downloading, this means that my actions of "stealing" is intentional therefore the intention,motivation, action, result is based on my benefit, at the loss and damage of the rights of the owner.

What do you guys think?.. Is downloading a form of stealing, thus breaking one's vow?

It completely depends on your reason to download!

If you're downloading to listen to music for free because you want it FREE - then you're stealing.

If you're downloading old movies because they're old and can't be found on hard copy anymore - then by all means download.

If you're downloading to share it with others - then by all means download.

For example, I'm looking for a text on Hayagriva's Higher Tantric Empowerment of etc etc etc. If can't find it on Amazon.com, or at other bookshops, and find it on the net for downloading... what's wrong with downloading it off the net, sharing it with others and using it for personal use??

I can't find it anywhere else.

Or if it's a really old movie where they have stop reproducing the DVDs. If I find it on the net, I'll download it, share it with my friends and watch it myself. I don't consider that as stealing.

[pgdharma]

In my opinion, it is stealing. We are infringing the rights and if everyone were to download or buy fake dvd/cd, then we are causing the loss of income of loyalty  for the artistes. It is an offense in most countries if one is caught with illegal downloading one can be sent to jail or have to pay a fine.

Some may say that they download a film/song and share it with others to help them relax or learn something good, I would say if we like the film/song then buy an original one.

[negra orquida]

This seems to be a deja vu topic... I think whether downloading music / movies (which is made publicly available) is considered as stealing or not would depend on whether the act fulfils the 4 components of non-virtues: basis, intention, deed and final step.  This is written in the Lamrim.

But after all is said, even if downloading music/movies IS considered stealing, no matter what the justification, would we discontinue doing it? (but but but it is sooooo convenient!)

Perhaps time would be better spent contemplating on other things, such as "is making/letting other people wait on us considered stealing their time?" at least if we decided that yes, it is considered stealing (their time), we definitely will try much harder to stop doing it =p

[Aurore]

I don't believe there is no one here who doesn't own a pirated cd, downloaded music and movies if not from the internet, have ripped them off from friends' hard disk or even owned pirated softwares.

Honestly, what is the big harm? A celebrity makes less? Apple makes lesser bucks? If people want their stuff, they must be famous already. Why do you think app store gives out freebies and then choose to charge later?

Intellectual property is not free ... but you know what? Piracy is a form of free advertising! They should be paying us to advertise for them.

Ok so fine ... it's against our refuge vows. So what are you guys going to do about it now that you are aware? 

[Positive Change]

Downloading music, movies, etc. over the Internet without paying for them - IS stealing!

There is a term for this - infringing interlectual properties, and this is a serious offcense, punishable by fine or jail term.

We can argue, "by downloading for free, I am not causing any 'harm' to the authors or artistes, hence not a crime." you are wrong! Your action actually causes lost in income for the authors and artistes who created the films or music. They suffer from lost of loyalty which is the main source of income.

Think before you hit the "download" button

You are very absolute Tammy... I like that... however, let mebe devils advocate and ask you this. Have you done it before, as in download anything illegal or without permission? Before you answer that question, where did you get your profile picture from?

I do not think the artist loses out on much. Sure there is the issue of royalties etc but even that has a certain time period depending on the artist contract. And after a while (20 years or so), the intellectual property rights cease anyway (correct me if I am wrong anyone). Hence if you were to go online and find stuff from Elvis etc, it would be free anyhow. As we cannot even find anything to purchase anymore.

Hence my point is, it all depends on why you are downloading a particular song/movie which makes it "right" or "wrong"... There is no absolute in life except death,, so think about it.

[nagaseeker]

In my opinion, I do not think this is a case of stealing. As most of the videos/music are uploaded with no fees and these people charge no fees, it is just a case of SHARING.

For example, I upload a song to the internet for other people to download because I think it will help them to relax after a long day at work. It is my choice to upload the video to help others. So if other people download the song and listens to it for relaxation purposes, do we consider this as stealing? Obviously not because this song was uploaded willingly be a kind person who wants to share.

Dear tsangpakarpo ,
it is your choice to upload the video/music to help others but pls bear in mind that theres cost of producing those video/music. you are actually steal it from those who work hard to sing,act , the company that made the movies/musics.........it is very kind of you to 'share' but the things you sharing were 'pirated'   

[yontenjamyang]

Unless it is stating clearly by the IP right holder that the piece of music/film/picture is free for download then we have cause for concern.

Technically speaking any act that breaks the vows must include the 4 factors to be complete ie the object, intention, preparation and the completion.
Basically, if we identified a movie by name for example we have the object. We go online to search for this movie, that is intention and we look for the movie and finds it that is preparation and the act is complete when the movie is downloaded. That is stealing.
However, I find a caveat to this in that if we do not regard the movie as ours ie we do not sell the movie to others, we do not claim ownership the act is not really complete and it is more like borrowing even though we did "use" it ie watching it. So, it quite arguable.

Please note that any of the non virtues even though not complete still generate negative karmas. So please do not download unless it is clearly stated that it is permissible.

[Tammy]

This is a topic that I'm sure can attract a lot of debate.

For me, downloading something illegally can be considered stealing. At least by law it is stealing. Many sharing sites are being shut down because what they do is considered illegal. But then again maybe the motivation behind it also determines whether you are breaking your vows. If your motivation is solely to steal from them, resell their movies and make money from nothing, then I am quite sure that this would break your vows.

But if we are downloading to a film, or music with someone to help them, by helping them relax, by helping them learn something good; then it would be a different motivation and perhaps it would not be considered stealing, but sharing.

In my world, the western world, illegal downloading is a criminal offense and you can be fined for it, if not go to jail. However I have heard in the asian world, many people do this and get away with it.

In my opinion there is no clear and cut answer as to whether you will break your vows. It is stealing in some ways, but in a very indirect aspect. And in some ways it is not stealing, because it is available for free, for you to download. It it said that for you to complete the act of stealing, you must have the motivation to steal, the act of trying to steal, the success of the theft, and the rejoicing of your action. I don't see all these steps in illegal downloading.

Let me know what you think. I am interested to know.

Jeremyg,

I don't agree with you. If you are looking at the motivation of the person who downloads illegally from internet, no matter how 'right' the motivation sounds, it is still STEALING.

Let's examine the meaning/definition of stealing - taking things that belong to other people without getting prior permission. So, even if you download music for your mother to relax, without paying for it, you had commit the crime of stealing. What is worse in this situation is - you drag your mum down by involving her in this act of stealing!

There are two types of products :
1. those produced with the aim of making money (commercial products) - most movies and music are under this category
2. those produced for free distribution (e.g. Dorje Shugden Comics book http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?page_id=9832/)

Downloading (1) without paying is stealing
Downloading (2) is NOT stealing

Why? because the motivation of producing (2) was for it to be distributed freely to benefit others and not profit making.. hence downloading them is fine.