Another center depicting Dorje Drolo stepping on Shugden!

[brian]

This picture shows the wall paiting of a Nyingma center with Dorje Drolo stepping on a monk, the monk is supposed to be Dorje Shugden! Isn't monk a universal symbol of holiness? Even if they think Shugden is evil, shouldn't they just draw Shugden not in a monk's clothes? How twisted it is to depict a monk being stepped on, no matter how noble the reasoning is!!!

It is indeed twisted and wrong in all aspects. We as Buddhist should not use such defamatory iconography to put down the holy sangha. It is really downright disrespectful!

If creating a Buddha image/statue purifies body karma and is most meritorious... what happens in situations like this when the depiction is "wrong" or putting down the sangha. Surely the opposite karma is created as it promotes wrong views.

Why do people resort to defamation in order to make a point. Perhaps there is no point to make and thus they just want to have that "shock value". Whatever the case is, there are certainly repercussions to such actions. The Karmapa's prediction is most interesting too!

This comes as a shocker to me. I have never seen a thangkha or any sort of painting that actually puts down on a holy Sangha, I have doubts in the truth/genuine in this thangka painting. Tibetan Buddhism especially, has a lot of symbolic meaning behind paintings but i have never come across such iconography of stepping onto a holy Sangha image let alone as holy as Dorje Shugden. This is more like an effort to smear the name of Dorje Shugden in order to make their protector better placed/grander/more powerful in the eyes of their worshipers.  Even if Dorje Shugden is considered as a demon/spirits (who I totally believe is a Buddha), a thangkha should not be painted at all as other sects of Tibetan Buddhism practitioners are worshiping Him. This is a sign of disrespect and no wonder 16th Karmapa was so furious when He saw the painting.

[Blueupali]

[color=blue]

I think the picture is pretty hilarious. It's like Manjushri stepping on Manjushri. Or an image of Guru Rinpoche and Tsongkhapa having a tantric battle.[/color]

Hi Ensapa, I also think that too, especially when someone tries to use a Guru Rinpoche mantra on us for doing Dorje Shugden practice.  I think okay?  So Guru Rinpoche likes Buddha Manjushri you guys....
 
from Ensapa:
"I find it very interesting that the 16th Karmapa said those things, that he was angry that someone put down Dorje Shugden. This contradicts with the Dalai Lama's account of how Trijang Rinpoche hurriedly cleared his room when the Karmapa came for a visit while he was doing a Dorje Shugden puja. The Karmapa and Trijang Rinpoche swapped places before within their incarnation line and are thus extremely close. It is my guess that if a real verification is needed between the 2 Karmapas, it is Trijang Rinpoche that will be able to tell who is the real one."

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While I am sure that Trijang Rinpoche does know who the Karmapa is, or whether both are Karmapas, as well as the ultimate nature of mind, it really was supposed to be Shamar Rinpoche's job to find the Karmapa.  At any rate, since Karmapas historically announce themselves, we can notice that Thaye Dorje was announcing his Karmapaness from an early age (18 months?) to various high Rinpoches.  We could also just go check on them for ourselves.  Again, I totally trust Trijang Rinpoche to be a Buddha but I sometimes don't know if Buddhas from the Gelugpa school are supposed to mention who are the Buddhas from the Kagyu school, not because they wouldn't happen to know, but maybe to avoid historical precedent.
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Quoting Ensapa:
"But what I like about the prediction was that they will have no choice but to practice Dorje Shugden in the future. If The Karmapa predicted that and he is not even Gelug, that means that Dorje Shugden would be huge in the near future. Very huge…so all of these people who are playing crusader now will regret their actions."
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That would be tremendously wonderful for all living beings if we could all rely on Dorje Shugden.  I am starting to think we are at the beginning of the time when we start to have Dorje Shugden as one of the major Dharma Protectors for various lineages.
 

[Rihanna]

As a religious person, we should not defame iconography in order to put down another Sangha. It is disrespectful and promoting wrong views among practitioners. One should not degrade others belief in such a way. If they do not believe in Dorje Shugden, then be it, they should not even have a painting of him even to begin with. Come to think of it, it is weird and illogical, a Buddha stepping on another Buddha...

I am not surprised at the reaction by the 16th Karmapa upon seeing the painting and no wonder He walked away. It is also very interesting to know of Karmapa's prediction that in future they will all be worshiping Dorje Shugden. I sincerely hope they will repent on this and start cultivating real Buddhism which is not another holy Sangha.


 

[dsiluvu]

So what magical Terma did Dudjom receive this in then ?

Dudjom Rinpoche has been speaking out against Shugden since the early seventies. It's just what he said didn't take off on it's own.

He is known to dislike Shugden by everyone.

True, problem is however if he has directly authorized the making of these images he must have received it must be some sort of terma or it wouldn't be a qualified image. Now from our POV what does this say about Dudjom Himself disrespecting enlightened beings in such a way ?

It says that Dudjom Rinpoche himself is acting on his own will and creating misunderstanding amongst practitioners. There were no evidence that before this with images depicting Dorje Shugden being stepped on. All pictures shown in this forum thread does not show it too. Must be something created and blindly followed by others.

Why would the 16th Karmapa feel very angry and left the Pharping monastery he is suppose to officiate when he saw Dorje shugden being stepped on. Even the Karmapa does not endorse it! I have been to the monastery in Pharping and the statue is in a glass cabinet, but the lower part of the glass cabinet is covered with a curtain.So, Dorje Shugden being stepped on is not visible unless you go near and looked above the curtain into the feet of the statue.  Therefore, for someone who goes to the monastery, without any knowledge of this phenomena, will not notice it. Maybe this is a way they are trying to make amends.

This is an clasic example of creating schiism in the Buddhist community.

So its apparent that Dudjom is twisting Dharma and turning  a God into a demon so to speak. 

What happens to all this weird, not so good Rinpoche's?? How come they can get a way with such nonsense and no one says anything??? Why is this even allowed? Has Tibetan Lamas degenerated so badly to this level?

I was wondering... if they are Rinpoches, recognized to be someone holy and pure, then how come they can cause one of the 5 heinous crimes and it's okay?

"The five heinous crimes (mtshams-med lnga) are (a) killing our fathers, (b) mothers, or (c) an arhat (a liberated being), (d) with bad intentions drawing blood from a Buddha, or (e) causing a split in the monastic community. The latter heinous crime refers to repudiating the Buddha's teachings and monastic institution, drawing monastics away from them, and enlisting them in one's own newly founded religion and monastic tradition. It does not refer to leaving a Dharma center or organization – especially because of corruption in the organization or its spiritual teachers – and founding another center that still follows Buddha's teachings. Moreover, the term sangha in this heinous crime refers specifically to the monastic community. It does not refer to "sangha" in the nontraditional usage of the term coined by Western Buddhists as an equivalent of the congregation of a Dharma center or organization."

It's either A) POLITICS (what's new) which is really bad and basically brings the sangha down and this is why in today's modern society, people stop believing in monks and nuns. Hence lesser and lesser people like religion or anything to do with religious community. Too many bad experiences and a scams.

OR           

B) A manifestation of enlightened beings to create some kind of dramatic cause for some kind of dramatic result and change to happened?

So all I guess we can say is let's see what His Holiness the 16th Karmapa do when the Dalai Lama retires. Let's not forget this 16th Karmapa that His Holiness recognizes is also the same one that China recognizes and accepts

[Blueupali]

So what magical Terma did Dudjom receive this in then ?

Dudjom Rinpoche has been speaking out against Shugden since the early seventies. It's just what he said didn't take off on it's own.

He is known to dislike Shugden by everyone.

True, problem is however if he has directly authorized the making of these images he must have received it must be some sort of terma or it wouldn't be a qualified image. Now from our POV what does this say about Dudjom Himself disrespecting enlightened beings in such a way ?

It says that Dudjom Rinpoche himself is acting on his own will and creating misunderstanding amongst practitioners. There were no evidence that before this with images depicting Dorje Shugden being stepped on. All pictures shown in this forum thread does not show it too. Must be something created and blindly followed by others.

Why would the 16th Karmapa feel very angry and left the Pharping monastery he is suppose to officiate when he saw Dorje shugden being stepped on. Even the Karmapa does not endorse it! I have been to the monastery in Pharping and the statue is in a glass cabinet, but the lower part of the glass cabinet is covered with a curtain.So, Dorje Shugden being stepped on is not visible unless you go near and looked above the curtain into the feet of the statue.  Therefore, for someone who goes to the monastery, without any knowledge of this phenomena, will not notice it. Maybe this is a way they are trying to make amends.

This is an clasic example of creating schiism in the Buddhist community.

So its apparent that Dudjom is twisting Dharma and turning  a God into a demon so to speak. 

What happens to all this weird, not so good Rinpoche's?? How come they can get a way with such nonsense and no one says anything??? Why is this even allowed? Has Tibetan Lamas degenerated so badly to this level?

I was wondering... if they are Rinpoches, recognized to be someone holy and pure, then how come they can cause one of the 5 heinous crimes and it's okay?

"The five heinous crimes (mtshams-med lnga) are (a) killing our fathers, (b) mothers, or (c) an arhat (a liberated being), (d) with bad intentions drawing blood from a Buddha, or (e) causing a split in the monastic community. The latter heinous crime refers to repudiating the Buddha's teachings and monastic institution, drawing monastics away from them, and enlisting them in one's own newly founded religion and monastic tradition. It does not refer to leaving a Dharma center or organization – especially because of corruption in the organization or its spiritual teachers – and founding another center that still follows Buddha's teachings. Moreover, the term sangha in this heinous crime refers specifically to the monastic community. It does not refer to "sangha" in the nontraditional usage of the term coined by Western Buddhists as an equivalent of the congregation of a Dharma center or organization."

It's either A) POLITICS (what's new) which is really bad and basically brings the sangha down and this is why in today's modern society, people stop believing in monks and nuns. Hence lesser and lesser people like religion or anything to do with religious community. Too many bad experiences and a scams.

OR           

B) A manifestation of enlightened beings to create some kind of dramatic cause for some kind of dramatic result and change to happened?

So all I guess we can say is let's see what His Holiness the 16th Karmapa do when the Dalai Lama retires. Let's not forget this 16th Karmapa that His Holiness recognizes is also the same one that China recognizes and accepts

Okay, I can see what you are saying, but I guess I assume Dujom Rinpoche to be an emanation of Padmasambava; while in reality Padmasambava and Dorje Shugden are inseparable, as they are both Buddhas, on the other hand, Padmasambava is well known to subdue demons and all kinds of difficult stuff; so in the end, if he can't subdue Shugden, despite a high Nyingma Rinpoche having made amulets etc., then perhaps that would be a sort of proof to the more superstitious people that Dorje Shugden is really a Buddha?
  While I do really think that is a logical possibilty, I also think it is one of those times when it is okay to request of enlightened beings that they could remove the statue, so as to give us the meritorious karma of trying to repair a schism.