The Karmapa Thaye Dorje questioned Dalai Lama's spiritual authority

[Namdrol]

Thaye Dorje says he has enormous respect for the Dalai Lama as "one of the greatest" Buddhist teachers, but is more circumspect when talking about his spiritual authority.

Thaye Dorje is a strong contender of the 17th Karmapa's seat, along with Urgyen Trinley, so if Thaye Dorje turns out to be the real Karmapa for any reason not important here, then he must be highly attained spiritually, and if he can "circumspect" about Dalai Lama's spiritual authority, that means other high lamas of equal or higher spiritual attainments can be "circumspect" about the Dalai Lama's spiritual opinion on Dorje Shugden also, that will include Pabongka Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche, Gangchen Rinpoche, Dagom Rinpoche, Denma Gonsa Rinpoche, Panchen Lama....and on and on

In other words, the Dalai Lama could very well be wrong about Dorje Shugden!


source: http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=70,10771,0,0,1,0

Rival Tibetan lamas compete for recognition
by Giles Hewitt, Agence France-Presse March 10, 2012

New Delhi, India -- Thaye Dorje was only 18 months old when, according to his biographers, he began telling people he was the reincarnation of one of Tibetan Buddhism's most influential leaders, the Karmapa Lama.

Tibetan leader Thaye Dorje gestures during an interview in New Delhi. Dorje was only 18 months old when, according to his biographers, he began telling people he was the reincarnation of one of Tibetan Buddhism's most influential leaders, the Karmapa Lama.
Photograph by: Getty Images , Agence France-Presse

Now 28, and embarking on a global religious teaching tour, he is one of two young men at the centre of a murky, divisive and seemingly intractable dispute over the Karmapa title.

Other major players in the long-running row include Tibet's spiritual leader the Dalai Lama, China's communist government, India's Supreme Court and a remote monastery that holds relics and treasures valued at up to $1.5 billion.


Among those relics is the "Black Crown" of the Karmapas - said to be made from the hair of female deities and a symbol of the Karmapa's status as head of the Karma Kagyu lineage, one of the four major schools of Tibetan Buddhism.

But since the death of the 16th Karmapa Lama in 1981, the crown has been locked away, coveted but unworn, in the vaults of Rumtek Monastery in the northeast Indian state of Sikkim, bordering Tibet.

A long and hotly disputed search for the 16th Karmapa's reincarnation split the Karma Kagyu school behind two candidates, Thaye Dorje and Urgyen Trinley, 26 - each enthroned by their respective factions as the 17th Karmapa.

The two rivals both now live in India. Thaye Dorje fled Tibet with his family in 1994, while Urgyen Trinley escaped in 2000.

"We've never even met," Thaye Dorje told AFP in an interview in New Delhi ahead of his four-month, 12-country tour.

"I've thought for a long time that it could be done - that the two of us could just sit down. I really wonder why it hasn't happened," he said.

Of the two, Urgyen Trinley is the better known internationally and is recognized as the 17th Karmapa by both the Chinese government and the Dalai Lama.

Recent appearances with the Dalai Lama - notably during a visit to Washington last year - have fuelled speculation that he is being groomed as the Nobel peace laureate's spiritual successor.

Thaye Dorje's take on the feud - he prefers the term "confusion" - surrounding the Karmapa title is couched in a strongly Buddhist perspective.

"We are taught that everything is impermanent, always changing, always in motion, and we must expect there will always be obstacles and challenges.

"This confusion tests one's courage in terms of devotion and in terms of seeing obstacles as an opportunity for turning negative circumstances into positive ones," he said.

But the existence of two rival Karmapas sets a dangerous precedent for the Tibetan movement as a whole, given fears that a similar situation might arise over the Dalai Lama's eventual reincarnation, with China anointing its own successor.

And the dispute also has a distinctly non-spiritual side, tainted by violence and a series of bitterly fought cases - some of them ongoing - in the Indian courts.

In 1993, followers of Urgyen Trinley stormed the Rumtek Monastery and ousted members of the Karmapa Charitable Trust (KCT) - a body set up the 16th Karmapa which had recognized Thaye Dorje as the true reincarnation.

But legal control of the monastery - and the Black Crown - remains in dispute with India's Supreme Court in 2004 having dismissed a petition to challenge the KCT's guardianship.

While voicing "disappointment" that the row had dragged on for so long, Thaye Dorje said it was inevitable that lawyers would become involved.

"The legal route is naturally there ... (the courts) are another tool, another way," he said.

"I really wish that sooner rather than later we can find a solution, because it's completely unnecessary."

Soft-spoken but self-assured, the young lama - whose musical tastes range from Mozart to the Irish singer Enya and who lists Star Wars among his favourite films - was born in Tibet in 1983.

His father was a high lama and his mother descended from Tibetan nobility. According to his official biography, he was just oneand-a-half years old "when he started telling people that he was the Karmapa."

Some observers see his tour of Asian and European countries as an effort to raise his profile and counter the publicity his rival has enjoyed as a result of the Dalai Lama's endorsement.

Thaye Dorje says he has enormous respect for the Dalai Lama as "one of the greatest" Buddhist teachers, but is more circumspect when talking about his spiritual authority.

The Karma Kagyu lineage has always maintained a proud independence from the Dalai Lama's Gelugpa school of Tibetan Buddhism and many of Thaye Dorje's hundreds of thousands of followers argue that the elderly monk has no say in the Karmapa's reincarnation.

"In terms of defining whether the Dalai Lama is the spiritual head of Tibet or not, that answer would go into the political side of things," Thaye Dorje said.

"It would be a political statement, and that's something I've always tried my very best to avoid," he added.

[Ensapa]

I really do applaud the Karmapa voicing out against the Dalai Lama trying to recognize his own Karmapa because it  has never been done in history before. Most of the traditions were autonomous, but they will accept and tolerate the Dalai Lama's advice or requests. For the Dalai Lama to pick a tulku for another lineage is unheard of until today. I really hope that Thaye Dorje would speak up for Shugdenpas soon.

[dsiluvu]

This is an interesting read! If someone like Thaye Dorje can say he has enormous respect for the Dalai Lama as "one of the greatest" Buddhist teachers, but is more circumspect when talking about his spiritual authority... makes me wonder how many highly attaine Lama's thinks along these lines.

It is very clear to me that there are many out there who does not respect and agree with HHDL decisions on a lot of things and definitely is not happy with their govt who uses HHDL to cover their own failures. Sooner or later people will find out and as already seen taken matters in to their own hands and burning themselves. So I wonder how long can CTA use HHDL to put up a front of wonderful they are?

I think it is time for CTA to start having some integrity and some balls of their own to make decisions that would not jeopardize their relationship with their own people further. After HHDL is gone, there will be no one else they can go to or use to cover their broken promises and failures. And not many high Lamas would support them either especially since they've chased out so many influential high Lamas due to the ban. How can CTA believe that by hurting their own people, they would in return get the support of their own people after? 

[Ensapa]

This is an interesting read! If someone like Thaye Dorje can say he has enormous respect for the Dalai Lama as "one of the greatest" Buddhist teachers, but is more circumspect when talking about his spiritual authority... makes me wonder how many highly attaine Lama's thinks along these lines.

It is very clear to me that there are many out there who does not respect and agree with HHDL decisions on a lot of things and definitely is not happy with their govt who uses HHDL to cover their own failures. Sooner or later people will find out and as already seen taken matters in to their own hands and burning themselves. So I wonder how long can CTA use HHDL to put up a front of wonderful they are?

I think it is time for CTA to start having some integrity and some balls of their own to make decisions that would not jeopardize their relationship with their own people further. After HHDL is gone, there will be no one else they can go to or use to cover their broken promises and failures. And not many high Lamas would support them either especially since they've chased out so many influential high Lamas due to the ban. How can CTA believe that by hurting their own people, they would in return get the support of their own people after?

One thing for sure is that the Dalai Lama has no right to pick his choice of Karmapa. Perhaps, he reconfirmed China's choice for political reasons in order to try and open talks with China, but the behavior of some of the members of CTA has worked against that cause. Sadly, in any case, CTA and the other traditions of Buddhism has been promoting the Dalai Lama as some sort of a universal pope for all Tibetan Buddhists when he is just a secular leader and a spiritual advisor because well, who does not want to look good? Who does not want to associate with the Dalai Lama? he is so famous, so associating with him means we're right too? In the process, they hurt a lot of people along the way, including some really high and important lineage lamas.

[DharmaSpace]

There is no grounds for the Dalai Lama to be setting the rules for any of the four Tibetan Buddhist traditions. The heads of each of the tradition there is a process and tradition whereby succession is determined to ascend the leadership of each tradition. What is being done now is unprecedented and there is no basis for the Dalai Lama to put his seal of recognition to the identification and recognition of the Karmapa.

If the Dalai Lama can make moves that are out of line, then what stops China from making their own rules about recognising the Dalai Lama for example. Why can't the CTA see by supporting the Dalai's Lama's irrational and unprecedented actions like the ban against Dorje Shugden, recognizing the Karmapa, is counter productive and is really playing into China's hand actually and not making it better for Tibetan independence. So if the Dalai Lama can take actions that are irrational with the support of CTA, why should CTA find it surprising if the Chinese would do the same?

[Barzin]

I dont understand one thing... Is His Holiness the actual head of Tibetan Buddhism in general?  Does he have the right to get involve with other lineage?  And also how is that the so called head of Karmapa was not recognized and confirm until now?  Why would such confusion happen?  If what they said a mind can emanate into thousand pieces, it is no surprise that a highly attained being can actually manifest in different emanations...  I am just wondering, the controversial of Shugden practice, the confusion in Karmapa, His Holiness weird moves and actions, Tulkus manifest in samsara... To me, it is just another drama for Buddha dharma to spread.  But i am more interested in seeing the ban actually lifted.

[Ensapa]

I dont understand one thing... Is His Holiness the actual head of Tibetan Buddhism in general?  Does he have the right to get involve with other lineage?  And also how is that the so called head of Karmapa was not recognized and confirm until now?  Why would such confusion happen?  If what they said a mind can emanate into thousand pieces, it is no surprise that a highly attained being can actually manifest in different emanations...  I am just wondering, the controversial of Shugden practice, the confusion in Karmapa, His Holiness weird moves and actions, Tulkus manifest in samsara... To me, it is just another drama for Buddha dharma to spread.  But i am more interested in seeing the ban actually lifted.

The common thread in both instances is that the Dalai Lama stuck his hand into it. He chose his own Karmapa,  he chose his own ban-compliant abbots and Ganden Tripas (in the past both positions were voted in by the sangha), him demanding that the Nyingmas having a head (traditionally they do not have one, since Guru Rinpoche's days until the 1960s) and getting Sakya to blank out Dorje Shugden from their historical practices, so one could say that the Dalai Lama changed tradition and is somewhat meddling in the affairs of the traditions. It is this that i feel, makes many people uncomfortable. But on the other hand, CTA is promoting HHDL as the spiritual leader of the Tibetans and many people seem to believe this, so there is no 'problems' in consistency. Popular opinion is not necessary the truth.

[Big Uncle]

You know what I really like about the Karmapa, he has close ties with Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche. In fact, in an early lifetime, it was said that the Karmapa and Trijang Rinpoche switched places and was obviously only found after their lifetimes. Even in the previous lifetime, Karmapa and Trijang Rinpoche were pretty close friends, visiting each other pretty often. On the other hand, the Karmapa also was reported to have said not to belittle Dorje Shugden as he will one day be practiced by everyone. I like that prediction very much. The current Karmapa also has never spoken anything bad about Dorje Shugden.

So, if he comes to be the Dalai Lama's sucessor, I think it would be good news as there's a chance, he will release the ban. The only problem about the Karmapa is that he will have no power over the massive Gelug institution that traditionally had more influence over the other tradition than the other way round. As for the 2 contending incarnation to the Karmapa title, I don't see why both can't be installed as rightful incarnation of the Karmapa. Another way round would be to start a new incarnation lineage for the younger contender and install the older incarnation.

[Ensapa]

You know what I really like about the Karmapa, he has close ties with Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche. In fact, in an early lifetime, it was said that the Karmapa and Trijang Rinpoche switched places and was obviously only found after their lifetimes. Even in the previous lifetime, Karmapa and Trijang Rinpoche were pretty close friends, visiting each other pretty often. On the other hand, the Karmapa also was reported to have said not to belittle Dorje Shugden as he will one day be practiced by everyone. I like that prediction very much. The current Karmapa also has never spoken anything bad about Dorje Shugden.

So, if he comes to be the Dalai Lama's sucessor, I think it would be good news as there's a chance, he will release the ban. The only problem about the Karmapa is that he will have no power over the massive Gelug institution that traditionally had more influence over the other tradition than the other way round. As for the 2 contending incarnation to the Karmapa title, I don't see why both can't be installed as rightful incarnation of the Karmapa. Another way round would be to start a new incarnation lineage for the younger contender and install the older incarnation.

The big problem here isnt with having 2 karmapas, the big problem here is the politics behind the karmapas. The traditional seat of the Karmapas is at Rumtek and it stored all of the offerings made to the Karmapa over the many centuries, including the original black hat that was bestowed to them by the Ming emperor. The 'real' Karmapa gets to have all of these, in addition to massive political power over the kagyus/nyingmas worldwide as their spiritual head. So it is due to this that makes the whole thing odd if the title was taken by 2 separate individuals where people would not know who is who in terms of leadership. It is not so much the karmapa themselves, it is more towards how their followers would be able to comply.

[Galen]

This is what I think. The most influential person after the Dalai Lama is the Panchen Lama. However, the Panchen Lama is being controlled by China and the Dalai Lama does not have access to him. So, the next best leader is the Karmapa. The Karmapa  Urgyen Trinley is endorsed by both China and the Dalai Lama, so his influence is greater and the chance of Tibet gaining their independence is greater. The question still lies whether the Dalai Lama has the right to chose the Karmapa as it is a different sect and not his jurisdiction?

The Dalai Lama all these years has been the spiritual and political leader of the Tibetan Government in exile and therefore all sects of Buddhism will listen to his holiness. He is in control of all Tibetans and have to treat all Tibetans all the same. But this is not the case as shown in HHDL's ban on Dorje Shugden practice where practitioners are discriminated against. Since his retirement from politics, HHDL is technically no longer in control of all Tibetans.

Even if the Karmapa takes over from the Dalai Lama as the leader, will the Gelugs listen to him?

[Ensapa]

This is what I think. The most influential person after the Dalai Lama is the Panchen Lama. However, the Panchen Lama is being controlled by China and the Dalai Lama does not have access to him. So, the next best leader is the Karmapa. The Karmapa  Urgyen Trinley is endorsed by both China and the Dalai Lama, so his influence is greater and the chance of Tibet gaining their independence is greater. The question still lies whether the Dalai Lama has the right to chose the Karmapa as it is a different sect and not his jurisdiction?

The Dalai Lama all these years has been the spiritual and political leader of the Tibetan Government in exile and therefore all sects of Buddhism will listen to his holiness. He is in control of all Tibetans and have to treat all Tibetans all the same. But this is not the case as shown in HHDL's ban on Dorje Shugden practice where practitioners are discriminated against. Since his retirement from politics, HHDL is technically no longer in control of all Tibetans.

Even if the Karmapa takes over from the Dalai Lama as the leader, will the Gelugs listen to him?

The Gelugs already have Ganden Tripa who serves as the 'pope' of Gelugs. A lot of westerners tend to base their idea of how Tibetan Buddhism works on the Vatican, where the pope is the supreme head of all catholics and they put the Dalai Lama in this position and they assume that it is that way because they do not bother to find out more about the whole thing. The Gelugs will listen to the Ganden Tripa after the Dalai Lama is gone, and decisions made in the Gelug school will lie in the hands of the Ganden Tripa only. Out of respect, the Ganden Tripa may comply to the requests of the Karmapa, but otherwise, there isnt much they can do.

[vajratruth]

I am quite impressed with how Karmapa Thaye Dorje comes across. He is right, and the Dalai Lama although the political leader of Tibet until recently, has no say in the succession of the leadership of the other schools. The Karmapa lineage began even before the Gelug school started and five Karmapas had been enthroned even before the first Dalai Lama appeared.

But this is not the only the only time the Dalai Lama has interfered with the appointment of the leadership of other schools. In 1992, His Holiness supported one candidiate to be the reincarnation of the head of the Nyingma school but Chadral Rinpoche recognized another candidate which the Nyingma accepted and enthroned. In the Karmapa situation, the Dalai Lama has already issues his official seal to confirm Orgyen Trinley as the 17th Karmapa over Thaye Dorje. I did not even know that the Dalai Lama's seal of approval is required for such appointments and looks to be more like a political strategy than anything else.

I think the Dalai Lama's keen interest in the appointment of heads of the other Tibetan Buddhist sects is His Holiness's way of securing allies and support for his efforts to establish non sectarianism in Tibetan Buddhism. Perhaps the Dalai Lama feels that this is the way to unite all Tibetans although his ban on Dorje Shugden has had the opposite effect.

[Ensapa]

I am quite impressed with how Karmapa Thaye Dorje comes across. He is right, and the Dalai Lama although the political leader of Tibet until recently, has no say in the succession of the leadership of the other schools. The Karmapa lineage began even before the Gelug school started and five Karmapas had been enthroned even before the first Dalai Lama appeared.

But this is not the only the only time the Dalai Lama has interfered with the appointment of the leadership of other schools. In 1992, His Holiness supported one candidiate to be the reincarnation of the head of the Nyingma school but Chadral Rinpoche recognized another candidate which the Nyingma accepted and enthroned. In the Karmapa situation, the Dalai Lama has already issues his official seal to confirm Orgyen Trinley as the 17th Karmapa over Thaye Dorje. I did not even know that the Dalai Lama's seal of approval is required for such appointments and looks to be more like a political strategy than anything else.

I think the Dalai Lama's keen interest in the appointment of heads of the other Tibetan Buddhist sects is His Holiness's way of securing allies and support for his efforts to establish non sectarianism in Tibetan Buddhism. Perhaps the Dalai Lama feels that this is the way to unite all Tibetans although his ban on Dorje Shugden has had the opposite effect.

The Dalai Lama's real goal isnt really the unification of all traditions, but to have a controlling stake in every tradition (which he already has, just that when he is in exile, the power is reduced) so that he can mobilize them to work towards the same direction. HHDL is more or less the glue that holds the Tibetans together, and the last thing he wants is disharmony between the different traditions wedging in more on the Tibetan cause and he tried to appease them with the ban on Dorje Shugden but that has caused a lot of damage in the Gelug school and a huge split in Buddhist centers worldwide...

[Zach]

I am quite impressed with how Karmapa Thaye Dorje comes across. He is right, and the Dalai Lama although the political leader of Tibet until recently, has no say in the succession of the leadership of the other schools. The Karmapa lineage began even before the Gelug school started and five Karmapas had been enthroned even before the first Dalai Lama appeared.

But this is not the only the only time the Dalai Lama has interfered with the appointment of the leadership of other schools. In 1992, His Holiness supported one candidiate to be the reincarnation of the head of the Nyingma school but Chadral Rinpoche recognized another candidate which the Nyingma accepted and enthroned. In the Karmapa situation, the Dalai Lama has already issues his official seal to confirm Orgyen Trinley as the 17th Karmapa over Thaye Dorje. I did not even know that the Dalai Lama's seal of approval is required for such appointments and looks to be more like a political strategy than anything else.

I think the Dalai Lama's keen interest in the appointment of heads of the other Tibetan Buddhist sects is His Holiness's way of securing allies and support for his efforts to establish non sectarianism in Tibetan Buddhism. Perhaps the Dalai Lama feels that this is the way to unite all Tibetans although his ban on Dorje Shugden has had the opposite effect.

The Dalai Lama's real goal isnt really the unification of all traditions, but to have a controlling stake in every tradition (which he already has, just that when he is in exile, the power is reduced) so that he can mobilize them to work towards the same direction. HHDL is more or less the glue that holds the Tibetans together, and the last thing he wants is disharmony between the different traditions wedging in more on the Tibetan cause and he tried to appease them with the ban on Dorje Shugden but that has caused a lot of damage in the Gelug school and a huge split in Buddhist centers worldwide...

The worst of it is HHDL could have easily done the opposite and convinced his followers that Dorje Shugden isn't harmful but a world peace protector. Much like other traditions have a specific protector Dorje Shugden functions specifically to protect Je Tsongkhapa's doctrine.

[Ensapa]

I am quite impressed with how Karmapa Thaye Dorje comes across. He is right, and the Dalai Lama although the political leader of Tibet until recently, has no say in the succession of the leadership of the other schools. The Karmapa lineage began even before the Gelug school started and five Karmapas had been enthroned even before the first Dalai Lama appeared.

But this is not the only the only time the Dalai Lama has interfered with the appointment of the leadership of other schools. In 1992, His Holiness supported one candidiate to be the reincarnation of the head of the Nyingma school but Chadral Rinpoche recognized another candidate which the Nyingma accepted and enthroned. In the Karmapa situation, the Dalai Lama has already issues his official seal to confirm Orgyen Trinley as the 17th Karmapa over Thaye Dorje. I did not even know that the Dalai Lama's seal of approval is required for such appointments and looks to be more like a political strategy than anything else.

I think the Dalai Lama's keen interest in the appointment of heads of the other Tibetan Buddhist sects is His Holiness's way of securing allies and support for his efforts to establish non sectarianism in Tibetan Buddhism. Perhaps the Dalai Lama feels that this is the way to unite all Tibetans although his ban on Dorje Shugden has had the opposite effect.

The Dalai Lama's real goal isnt really the unification of all traditions, but to have a controlling stake in every tradition (which he already has, just that when he is in exile, the power is reduced) so that he can mobilize them to work towards the same direction. HHDL is more or less the glue that holds the Tibetans together, and the last thing he wants is disharmony between the different traditions wedging in more on the Tibetan cause and he tried to appease them with the ban on Dorje Shugden but that has caused a lot of damage in the Gelug school and a huge split in Buddhist centers worldwide...

The worst of it is HHDL could have easily done the opposite and convinced his followers that Dorje Shugden isn't harmful but a world peace protector. Much like other traditions have a specific protector Dorje Shugden functions specifically to protect Je Tsongkhapa's doctrine.

Unfortunately, most other traditions do not have a specific uncommon protector. The only other tradition that has an uncommon protector is the Drikung Kagyu. They have an uncommon protector that goes by the name of Achi Chokyi Drolma who is a very highly attained yogini that came back in the form of a Dharma protector to protect the Drikung Kagyu tradition. what is strange is that nobody ever said that she was sectarian but everyone accused Dorje Shugden of being sectarian. This i cannot get or understand at all.