The Karmapa Thaye Dorje questioned Dalai Lama's spiritual authority

[DharmaSpace]

The Dalai Lama though a holy monk cannot advise on matters like deciding on who the next Karmapa his teachers were fro the lineage of Nyingmas and Gelugpa lamas so how this authority came about is of unknown origin. IN the same breath since the Dalai Lama is not the Gaden Tripa it is not in his jurisdiction to try to govern Gelug matters like issuing a ban of Dorje Shugden.

Furthermore there have been cases that lamas have incarnations of body, speech and mind so both the Ogyen Trinley Dorje and Trinley Thaye Dorje could be equally valid. 

[Ensapa]

The Dalai Lama though a holy monk cannot advise on matters like deciding on who the next Karmapa his teachers were fro the lineage of Nyingmas and Gelugpa lamas so how this authority came about is of unknown origin. IN the same breath since the Dalai Lama is not the Gaden Tripa it is not in his jurisdiction to try to govern Gelug matters like issuing a ban of Dorje Shugden.

Furthermore there have been cases that lamas have incarnations of body, speech and mind so both the Ogyen Trinley Dorje and Trinley Thaye Dorje could be equally valid.

But you cannot deny the Dalai Lama's power and influence over the other traditions of Tibetan Buddhism as it is because of him that most of those traditions survive today. Even Dorje Shugden in trance has told us not to go against the Dalai Lama but to continue to support him and have patience (but not give up Dorje Shugden's practice or Dorje Shugden Gurus) so he is literally the spiritual head of Tibet and every traditions make supplications to him and offers him long life pujas and follows his will because he is the secular leader of the Tibetans. He is not the Ganden Tripa, but he can pick the Ganden Tripa of his liking (Ganden Tripas were traditionally voted in) so you could say that in exile, the Dalai Lama's power has skyrocketed.

[dsiluvu]

The Dalai Lama's real goal isnt really the unification of all traditions, but to have a controlling stake in every tradition (which he already has, just that when he is in exile, the power is reduced) so that he can mobilize them to work towards the same direction. HHDL is more or less the glue that holds the Tibetans together, and the last thing he wants is disharmony between the different traditions wedging in more on the Tibetan cause and he tried to appease them with the ban on Dorje Shugden but that has caused a lot of damage in the Gelug school and a huge split in Buddhist centers worldwide...

The worst of it is HHDL could have easily done the opposite and convinced his followers that Dorje Shugden isn't harmful but a world peace protector. Much like other traditions have a specific protector Dorje Shugden functions specifically to protect Je Tsongkhapa's doctrine.
[/quote]

I cannot imagine being in His Holiness the Dalai Lama's shoes or position... to have to deal with the politics of so many different powered mind games.  And on top of that to be the one to pull everyone together, to be the "glue" that keeps everyone focused, calm and at peace with each other at the same time be the spiritual face of compassion and forgiveness representing a faith that is suppose to invoke peace of mind yet within there is so many conflicts and frictions... nothing compassionate, nothing forgiving. Imagine if you had to play this role.

It almost seems like His Holiness out of great desperation to create some kind of harmony... to a peace some He had to sacrifice His own... sounds too good to be true? Certainly... certainly something like this can only be done and acted upon by a Buddha of Great Compassion. Perhaps this is hard to phantom in our little limited minds.... but could it be possible? Perhaps?

Just think... we believe that Dorje Shugden is the Buddha of Manjushri so... if this is so why would Dorje Shugden not warn us or say anything against His Holiness but have always advice us to be calm, take the middle way, and to never say anything negative about His Holiness... and same goes for Trijang Rinpoche... why? Why would a Buddha say that if His Holiness is doing something terribly negative, purposely to hurt and harm? Why didn't Dorje Shugden save His Holiness, why did Dorje Shugden help His Holiness?

This is not to say the ban on Dorje Shugden is right... it is wrong... and could this wrong write the right of the future? This I cannot comment... I cannot say... as we are not "enlightened"... all I see and know is that because of the ban... so many more efforts have been made to bring Dorje Shugden practice and masters out to the world. Otherwise, we would not even be here talking about it.

[Ensapa]

I cannot imagine being in His Holiness the Dalai Lama's shoes or position... to have to deal with the politics of so many different powered mind games.  And on top of that to be the one to pull everyone together, to be the "glue" that keeps everyone focused, calm and at peace with each other at the same time be the spiritual face of compassion and forgiveness representing a faith that is suppose to invoke peace of mind yet within there is so many conflicts and frictions... nothing compassionate, nothing forgiving. Imagine if you had to play this role.

It almost seems like His Holiness out of great desperation to create some kind of harmony... to a peace some He had to sacrifice His own... sounds too good to be true? Certainly... certainly something like this can only be done and acted upon by a Buddha of Great Compassion. Perhaps this is hard to phantom in our little limited minds.... but could it be possible? Perhaps?

Just think... we believe that Dorje Shugden is the Buddha of Manjushri so... if this is so why would Dorje Shugden not warn us or say anything against His Holiness but have always advice us to be calm, take the middle way, and to never say anything negative about His Holiness... and same goes for Trijang Rinpoche... why? Why would a Buddha say that if His Holiness is doing something terribly negative, purposely to hurt and harm? Why didn't Dorje Shugden save His Holiness, why did Dorje Shugden help His Holiness?

This is not to say the ban on Dorje Shugden is right... it is wrong... and could this wrong write the right of the future? This I cannot comment... I cannot say... as we are not "enlightened"... all I see and know is that because of the ban... so many more efforts have been made to bring Dorje Shugden practice and masters out to the world. Otherwise, we would not even be here talking about it.

HHDL's position is no longer just the secular leader of Tibet, but he is also somewhat the protector of Tibet's cultural identity and because of this many Tibetans do really love the Dalai Lama. We all know that the ban was a very negative thing but we cannot deny as well, on the other hand that without the Dalai Lama, Tibetan Buddhism would not have survived. Buddhism would not have been this widespread and China would have not start to practice Dorje Shugden or allowing people to practice Dorje Shugden. We need to look at both sides of things so that we dont end up being biased against one side and not seeing the entire picture.

[whitelion]

We are talking about four great lamas from different lineage now, HH Dalai Lama from Gelug, HH Panchen Lama from Gelug, HH Karmapa Urgyen Trinley and HH Karmapa Thaye Dorje from Karma Kagyu. As far as I understand HH Dalai Lama is the head of politic and spiritual in Tibet from the 5th Dalai Lama time, but even that time, HHDL never involve with the recognition of HH Karmapa because Karma Kagyu have a complete system to recognize their throne holder.

It's quite surprise to see HHDL actually recognize the current HH Karmapa Urgyen Trinley as the reincarnation of HH 16th Karmapa, because it never happened in the hundred of years of Karma Kagyu history. By doing this actually created a big problem for us in the future, let's say if HHDL passed away (thousand years from now) and HH Panchen Lama recognize a 15th HHDL, HH Sakya Trinzin Rinpoche also recognize a new 15th HHDL, and HH Karmapa also recognize another 15th HHDL, which one should we follow ? I understand 3 might also be the emanation of 14th HHDL but who should we stick to ?? It might not be a problem to highly attained lamas, but most of us are just common people who know very little dharma, this will create very unnecessary trouble.

This will also open a can of worms that whoever in the future can just recognize whoever lama as they like, so which will be the real lineage that we suppose to follow ? It's very important for us to know where our lineage come from because, it can created "spiritual war" in between different school of Buddhism. 

[Ensapa]

We are talking about four great lamas from different lineage now, HH Dalai Lama from Gelug, HH Panchen Lama from Gelug, HH Karmapa Urgyen Trinley and HH Karmapa Thaye Dorje from Karma Kagyu. As far as I understand HH Dalai Lama is the head of politic and spiritual in Tibet from the 5th Dalai Lama time, but even that time, HHDL never involve with the recognition of HH Karmapa because Karma Kagyu have a complete system to recognize their throne holder.

It's quite surprise to see HHDL actually recognize the current HH Karmapa Urgyen Trinley as the reincarnation of HH 16th Karmapa, because it never happened in the hundred of years of Karma Kagyu history. By doing this actually created a big problem for us in the future, let's say if HHDL passed away (thousand years from now) and HH Panchen Lama recognize a 15th HHDL, HH Sakya Trinzin Rinpoche also recognize a new 15th HHDL, and HH Karmapa also recognize another 15th HHDL, which one should we follow ? I understand 3 might also be the emanation of 14th HHDL but who should we stick to ?? It might not be a problem to highly attained lamas, but most of us are just common people who know very little dharma, this will create very unnecessary trouble.

This will also open a can of worms that whoever in the future can just recognize whoever lama as they like, so which will be the real lineage that we suppose to follow ? It's very important for us to know where our lineage come from because, it can created "spiritual war" in between different school of Buddhism.

I wouldnt say that the Dalai Lama recognized Orgyen Trinely, he merely endorsed him to be the 'real' Karmapa. The one who recognized Orgyen Trinley as the Karmapa is Tai Situpa. Of course, such endorsements were not needed in the past but why is it needed now? In the past each of the own Lineages recognized their leaders without the need for the Dalai Lama's endorsement. This is the difference that I feel divides people as now, many western students see the Dalai Lama as a Buddhist authority and the Dalai Lama endorses Orgyen Trinely but ignores Thaye Dorje which was picked by the Sharmapa, it divides and causes unnecessary confusion in the Karma Kagyu community.

[Big Uncle]

The big problem here isnt with having 2 karmapas, the big problem here is the politics behind the karmapas. The traditional seat of the Karmapas is at Rumtek and it stored all of the offerings made to the Karmapa over the many centuries, including the original black hat that was bestowed to them by the Ming emperor. The 'real' Karmapa gets to have all of these, in addition to massive political power over the kagyus/nyingmas worldwide as their spiritual head. So it is due to this that makes the whole thing odd if the title was taken by 2 separate individuals where people would not know who is who in terms of leadership. It is not so much the karmapa themselves, it is more towards how their followers would be able to comply.

Well, the 2 Karmapas are just a divine manifestation of the politics. I am pretty sure that both Karmapas are the real manifestation of the Karmapa. I am just as equally curious of how the 2 contending Karmapas are going to be resolved and for me this mirrors the Dorje Shugden ban debacle. Everything seems to be heading into a deadlock but somehow, I feel that everything will be resolved in time and everything is just now what it seems right now.

Conventional thought and thinking doesn't apply in this case because we are dealing with master who are able to plan and think on a higher level. What we cannot fathom are plans with plans that are meant for a greater Dharmic cause. All we have to do is to stick to our lineage and practice and just watch how this whole divine drama unfold. Taking sides is just too premature and shortsighted. Not everybody would agree with me but that's how I see this.

[Ensapa]

Well, the 2 Karmapas are just a divine manifestation of the politics. I am pretty sure that both Karmapas are the real manifestation of the Karmapa. I am just as equally curious of how the 2 contending Karmapas are going to be resolved and for me this mirrors the Dorje Shugden ban debacle. Everything seems to be heading into a deadlock but somehow, I feel that everything will be resolved in time and everything is just now what it seems right now.

Conventional thought and thinking doesn't apply in this case because we are dealing with master who are able to plan and think on a higher level. What we cannot fathom are plans with plans that are meant for a greater Dharmic cause. All we have to do is to stick to our lineage and practice and just watch how this whole divine drama unfold. Taking sides is just too premature and shortsighted. Not everybody would agree with me but that's how I see this.

Last I have heard, the Sharmapa has also accepted Orgyen Trinley as the Karmapa too and both Karmapas attended a couple of events together, so the issue has more or less been quieted down and disciples of both sides have learnt to accept/tolerate the fact that there are now 2 Karmapas. The issue has more or less quieted down after disciples chose the Karmapa of their choice and stuck with their choice of Karmapa. I havent heard of this issue for quite sometime now and neither has there been any information on the Karmapas so I would say that this issue has quieted down somehow.

[Dondrup Shugden]

I am awed by the manner in which HH Karmapa Thaye Dorje speaks of the Dalai Lama even though He has interfered and created confusion in His recognition of another candidate as the 17 Karmapa.

Is that the way Tibetan buddhism is to progress among such confusion of having 2 Karmapas and 2 Panchen Lamas.  What would happen when the Dalai Lama goes into clear light.

Sorry to say, also so much division and segregation within the Gelug over the ban on Dorje Shugden.

Yet so much tolerance is being exercised by those under this unfortunate circumstances.  When will this end?

It is my humble opinion that all can be resolved by the Dalai Lama rectifying all. 

[Matibhadra]

It is my humble opinion that all can be resolved by the Dalai Lama rectifying all.

Non-Buddhists believe in changing the external world. Buddhists believe in changing themselves.

Therefore, the vain hope that the evil dalie changes or "rectifies all" is just a non-Buddhist fantasy.

Buddhists will rather change themselves, giving up subservience to criminals such as the evil dalie, and thus rectifying their refuge in the Three Jewels.

[kelly]

The issue about who is the throne holder is really very confusing because this way will create a lot of conflict among the practitioners so Dalai Lama has to resolve this issues as soon as possible .

[Dondrup Shugden]

It is true, Matibhadra, that Buddhists change within and not wait for others to change.  In the Shugden Ban and the confusion caused by the Dalai Lama, much confusion and suffering is induced.

However Shugdenpas, the Panchen Lamas and the Karmapas continue their refuge in the 3 jewels and do not deter in their goals.

Any external assistance to eradicate such division and segregation caused could be easily removed.  In this aspect it is still my hope that the Ban be lifted. Not that the Ban deters the Shugdenpas but more efforts have to be taken to propagate the worship of DS.

[Matibhadra]

In the Shugden Ban and the confusion caused by the Dalai Lama, much confusion and suffering is induced.

I beg to disagree. The evil dalie is not responsible for any confusion. Those responsible for the confusion are confused Westerners and Tibetans obsessed with sanctifying the criminal, thus becoming his accomplices. The day people abandon this wrong attitude, the criminal, bereft of accomplices, will be powerless to perpetrate his misdeeds and atrocities.

[Dondrup Shugden]

You have a good point there. So what will be the best way to stop these people sanctifying the Ban.

For now, there are social media exposure through the internet and also protests.  I believe you have a better way than what is in practice.  Shall appreciate your suggestions.  Thank you.