The Dalai Lama consecrating Tso Pema's Guru Padmasambhava Statue Project

[Namdrol]

Nice to see this happening, the Dalai Lama being invited to officiate a Nyingma/Kagyu/Remay's official event. This should always happen, but not at the expense of anyone, including Dorje Shugden, if inter-sect's harmony is the goal.


On March 31 and April 1, 2012, the Padmasambhava statue will be consecrated. His Holiness the Dalai Lama will come to Tso Pema to officiate at the dedication ceremony, and give teachings.

Background
 
Wangdor Rimpoche is a Tibetan Buddhist monk and teacher (lama). Through decades of solitary meditation, retreats and practices he has achieved the state which Buddhists call realization and is respected worldwide as a venerable teacher and a master of "Direct Mind Perception" (Dzogchen) Meditation. Lama Wangdor has a profound commitment to making Buddhist philosophy and teachings accessible to everyone with a sincere interest. He has taught and given empowerments in Asia, Europe and the United States over the past two decades.
 
He has spent more than 30 years meditating in the caves first used by the Tibetan saint, Padmasambava, above Lotus Lake (Tsol Pema) in the Himachal Pradesh region of Northern India. In solitary retreat during the early years, he was eventually joined over time by more than 50 cave-dwelling yogis and yoginis who look to him for guidance and support. Beginning in the 1970s, he constructed a monastery near the lake as well as a retreat center on the mountain, available to practitioners of all lineages and nationalities, projects which have taken nearly 20 years to complete.
 
Wangdor Rimpoche holds both Nyingma and Kagyu Dzogchen/Chagchen lineages and is considered a Remay (ecclectic) teacher. He teaches from heart texts on Dzogchen, the maha-ati and mahamudra yogas which he has received in lineage from Nambla Janchub Dorje, Kunu Rimpoche and Scholars Chonchok Sumon Khenpo of Trungpa Rimpoche's line; Tucksie Rimpoche and Pumdong Key Rimpoche.
 

[Big Uncle]

Thank you for the wonderful news about the consecration of this large Guru Rinpoche statue. I really like Guru Rinpoche even though I am committed to my Gelug lineage. Part of the reason why I really like Guru Rinpoche is because I heard that he is considered one of the previous live of Lama Tsongkhapa. He was very courageous to have traveled up to Tibet, a land that is considered barbarian, dangerous and devoid of any form of Dharma.

I also read from somewhere that the Dalai Lama has a special connection to Guru Rinpoche. This is probably due to his earlier incarnations as one of the Dharma kings, Trisong Detsen who manifested as the student of Guru Rinpoche. Hence, in later incarnations, the Dalai Lama often had visions of Guru Rinpoche and according to oral tradition, Guru Rinpoche even bestowed Nechung to the Dalai Lama in order to aid his work and way of requesting him to continue to reincarnate and benefit beings of our world. Hence, the Dalai Lama continue to order Nechung to take trance and probably give him further instructions.

[Tenzin Gyatso]

What can I say? HHDL is always encouraging dharma's growth in all schools of Buddhism. As great as some of the Gelug teachers are, you won't see them congregating to Guru Rinpoche events at all.

HHDL is the only Gelug Lama that will do this. He paves the way for non-sectarianism. HHDL trained under strict Gelug methods but has blossomed into pure rime. His mind is purely for the growth of Dharma irregardless of sect. He follows protectors that are general Buddhist protectors not sectarian ones.

All Gelug Teachers should follow this example then there would be much more harmony.

[Lineageholder]

What can I say? HHDL is always encouraging dharma's growth in all schools of Buddhism. As great as some of the Gelug teachers are, you won't see them congregating to Guru Rinpoche events at all.

Would Nyingma/Kagyu/Sakya Lamas gather if there was a consecration of a Lama Tsongkhapa statue?  I think not - but everyone is supposed to turn up if there's the consecration of a Guru Rinpoche statue.

Je Tsongkhapa didn't teach reliance on Guru Rinpoche - does anyone know why Gelugpas don't rely on him?  After all, Lama Tsongkhapa formulated his tradition of teaching by receiving teachings from other lineages, so you would think that reliance on Guru Rinpoche would be part of that, surely?

[Big Uncle]

What can I say? HHDL is always encouraging dharma's growth in all schools of Buddhism. As great as some of the Gelug teachers are, you won't see them congregating to Guru Rinpoche events at all.

Would Nyingma/Kagyu/Sakya Lamas gather if there was a consecration of a Lama Tsongkhapa statue?  I think not - but everyone is supposed to turn up if there's the consecration of a Guru Rinpoche statue.

Dear lineageholder,
That's right! I love what you just said because it is just so true. Thank you for pointing that out.

Je Tsongkhapa didn't teach reliance on Guru Rinpoche - does anyone know why Gelugpas don't rely on him?  After all, Lama Tsongkhapa formulated his tradition of teaching by receiving teachings from other lineages, so you would think that reliance on Guru Rinpoche would be part of that, surely?

Well, I think that is because Lama Tsongkhapa is Guru Rinpoche so I think it sort of becomes redundant. Apparently, Guru Rinpoche himself prophesied that he would take rebirth as Lama Tsongkhapa later. I cannot recall the exact words but he said it himself. So, I think it is unnecessary for us to rely on Guru Rinpoche and Lama Tsongkhapa as they are both the same mind stream.
 

[harrynephew]

Interesting thread here. I do echo some of the things being discussed here. mainly because I just feel that from the point of a practitioner, the key to spirituality is harmony. And if all schools of tibetan Buddhism cannot be harmonious with each other, where is our practice really headed to?

Indeed somehow we have to face a fact that in this age and time if there was a huge Tsongkhapa statue being built somewhere, not all four schools of Buddhism will come and consecrate the statue altogether. Especially with the current contraversy in the air, things would be politically incorrect to do so.

Hence, even within the Gelugpa system of Gaden Tripas, their sovereign and spiritual power is usually overshadowed by HHDL . But that's fine, we still can live in harmony, and we're doing well until this recent upheaval which also challenges the authority of the Gaden Tripas.

Who is really boss?

[Lineageholder]

Well, I think that is because Lama Tsongkhapa is Guru Rinpoche so I think it sort of becomes redundant. Apparently, Guru Rinpoche himself prophesied that he would take rebirth as Lama Tsongkhapa later. I cannot recall the exact words but he said it himself. So, I think it is unnecessary for us to rely on Guru Rinpoche and Lama Tsongkhapa as they are both the same mind stream.

Big Uncle, thanks for your reply. I seem to recall that Je Pabongkhapa said in his lamrim that they were both the same mental continuum. 

[Ensapa]

Well, I think that is because Lama Tsongkhapa is Guru Rinpoche so I think it sort of becomes redundant. Apparently, Guru Rinpoche himself prophesied that he would take rebirth as Lama Tsongkhapa later. I cannot recall the exact words but he said it himself. So, I think it is unnecessary for us to rely on Guru Rinpoche and Lama Tsongkhapa as they are both the same mind stream.

Big Uncle, thanks for your reply. I seem to recall that Je Pabongkhapa said in his lamrim that they were both the same mental continuum. 

There is also the story of the Rime saint Shakbar which reaffirms this fact. Shakbar was very devoted to Guru Rinpoche and did his retreats endlessly. One day, he dreamt of Lama Tsongkhapa transmitting the Lamrim to him. He was disappointed but resumed his practice. On the next day, Guru Rinpoche appeared in his dream. He asked Guru Rinpoche immediately why did he not come earlier and that he missed Guru Rinpoche a lot. Guru Rinpoche replied "My son! I have come to you the other day, in the form of Lama Tsongkhapa. I have never abandoned you! It is just that you fail to recognize me!"

It is also interesting to note hat Rime traditionally does not include Gelug because it is considered to be a parallel of Gelug rather than something that is inclusive within Rime. This story again, illustrates the clear distinction that the other 3 traditions have against Gelug. It is not exactly a bad thing per se, but it developed misunderstandings with the lesser practitioners who think that Gelug is bad.

It is also this story that shows that Lama Tsongkhapa is indeed Guru Rinpoche and there is no doubt about it, which is why most Gelug monasteries have a Guru Rinpoche statue in them. The Gelugpa has always been inclusive of other traditions, just that they do not mix the practices up but this was taken the wrong way by other traditions who see this as being sectarian.

All Gelugs have a high regard for Guru Rinpoche and this is no secret. If Dorje Shugden protects Lama Tsongkhapa's doctrine, and since Guru Rinpoche is Lama Tsongkhapa's past incarnation it would only make sense that Dorje Shugden protect the Nyigmas as well, whether or not they recognize this fact, and it makes me feel sad to see how ungrateful they are...

[Tenzin Gyatso]

What can I say? HHDL is always encouraging dharma's growth in all schools of Buddhism. As great as some of the Gelug teachers are, you won't see them congregating to Guru Rinpoche events at all.

Would Nyingma/Kagyu/Sakya Lamas gather if there was a consecration of a Lama Tsongkhapa statue?  I think not - but everyone is supposed to turn up if there's the consecration of a Guru Rinpoche statue.

Je Tsongkhapa didn't teach reliance on Guru Rinpoche - does anyone know why Gelugpas don't rely on him?  After all, Lama Tsongkhapa formulated his tradition of teaching by receiving teachings from other lineages, so you would think that reliance on Guru Rinpoche would be part of that, surely?

If the Nyingma, Kagyu and Sakya lamas are invited, of course they would show up. Why wouldn't they? Besides there is not consecration of a huge Lama Tsongkapa statue anywhere in India.

There is no basis or proof these lamas would not show up. But would the Gelug establishments invite them? Have they invited them? I think they would turn up if invited. Whenever there are events, teachings, empowerments, long life ceremonies, blessings, the lamas of all sects convene at Tsuklakhang (Main Cathedral) in Dharamsala to attend. I have attended numerous ones. Tulkus and teachers and sanghas of all sects attend these.

There is no reliance on Guru Rinpoche does not mean anything. Just because Je Tsongkapa did not teach it does not invalidate any practice.

[Ensapa]

If the Nyingma, Kagyu and Sakya lamas are invited, of course they would show up. Why wouldn't they? Besides there is not consecration of a huge Lama Tsongkapa statue anywhere in India.

There is no basis or proof these lamas would not show up. But would the Gelug establishments invite them? Have they invited them? I think they would turn up if invited. Whenever there are events, teachings, empowerments, long life ceremonies, blessings, the lamas of all sects convene at Tsuklakhang (Main Cathedral) in Dharamsala to attend. I have attended numerous ones. Tulkus and teachers and sanghas of all sects attend these.

There is no reliance on Guru Rinpoche does not mean anything. Just because Je Tsongkapa did not teach it does not invalidate any practice.

yeah but since all Gelug lamas of this generation is either directly or indirectly connected to Pabongkha Rinpoche, and thus implying a connection with Dorje Shugden, what do you think their reactions will be? I would imagine that it won't be a good one. So in order to protect each other the Gelugs would normally not invite those from other traditions to not appear to be too pompous. Humility is a core practice of the Gelugs.

I don't think lineage holder says that Guru Rinpoche is invalid, it is just that Gelugs prefer to follow the system that was set up by Lama Tsongkhapa and not mess with it by introducing something else into the equation. Gelugs who have achieved the Yamantaka, Chakrasamvara and Guhyasamaja can practice any tradition they want, in short, when they have learnt up everything that Gelug can offer, there is nothing wrong with them with seeking other traditions.

Gelug does not practice other traditions not because they are invalid or inferior, it is because the Gelug system is complete by itself and needs no second opinion or alternative methods that may cause confusion instead of promoting attainments. that is why Gelug is a school by itself, not another non sectarian movement where everything is open.It is a system that should not be messed with and all seasoned Gelugs know this.

All Gelugpas love the other schools a lot because all of the teachings in Gelug are derived from the other schools so it makes no sense for Gelug to say that they are inferior, but with comparison to the other schools, Gelug is more suitable for intellectuals compared with the others as Gelug has extensive references and quotes and logical explanations of the doctrine. Again, i don't see it as sectarian, but some people do perceive it as that way.

[Lineageholder]

Thanks to everyone for your posts, it's made everything a lot clearer.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with Guru Rinpoche practice, I was just wondering why it wasn't explicitly taught in Gelugpa.  As Ensapa says, Tsongkhapa's system is complete and perfect in itself and needs to be maintained as it is without the need to add anything.  I rejoice to have met such a wonderful system of teaching and bow at Tsongkhapa's lotus feet in gratitude! 

[vajra power]

. As great as some of the Gelug teachers are, you won't see them congregating to Guru Rinpoche events at all.

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haha    At least geluk monasteries are reciting Padmasambhawa Mantra in their monastery. Have you ever seen a nyingma monastery reciting Migtsema? Beside H.H.  the Dalai Lama is Guru of all four sect and therefore
it is viable that he congregate Nyingma pa event. Do you really think Nyingmapa would tolerate if some other Geluk Lama poke his nose in Nyingmapas business? I don't think so. I don't know whether you are Tibetan or not - but if you are then you need to stop posting hate message -  Tibet is going through very rough time and we need to stand together under one flag and leave the religion to personal choice. This is my request.

[Tenzin Gyatso]

. As great as some of the Gelug teachers are, you won't see them congregating to Guru Rinpoche events at all.

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haha    At least geluk monasteries are reciting Padmasambhawa Mantra in their monastery. Have you ever seen a nyingma monastery reciting Migtsema? Beside H.H.  the Dalai Lama is Guru of all four sect and therefore
it is viable that he congregate Nyingma pa event. Do you really think Nyingmapa would tolerate if some other Geluk Lama poke his nose in Nyingmapas business? I don't think so. I don't know whether you are Tibetan or not - but if you are then you need to stop posting hate message -  Tibet is going through very rough time and we need to stand together under one flag and leave the religion to personal choice. This is my request.

Most likely Nyingma monasteries will not recite Tsongkapa'a mantra. But that does not mean Gelugs are justified to worship the spirit Shugden.

Sectarianism does exist among some people of all four schools of Tibetan Buddhism, but Shugden is a whole other issue. He is a spirit and he has nothing to do with sectarian rivalry. He is a problem on his own. He is just a evil spirit.

[Ensapa]

Most likely Nyingma monasteries will not recite Tsongkapa'a mantra. But that does not mean Gelugs are justified to worship the spirit Shugden.

Sectarianism does exist among some people of all four schools of Tibetan Buddhism, but Shugden is a whole other issue. He is a spirit and he has nothing to do with sectarian rivalry. He is a problem on his own. He is just a evil spirit.

Shugden is just a front and a mouthpiece that allows the other 3 schools to express their disdain and disapproval against Gelugpa because for them to announce it publicly would make them obviously sectarian and people would start to ask "if you're really Buddhist, why are you sectarian?" So to avoid that, they simply criticize a Dharma protector unique to the Gelugpas to get the message across.

You see, it is easier to say that a particular Dharma protector that is unique to a certain tradition to be bad than to say directly that the tradition is bad, because if you make it too obvious that you think a certain tradition is bad, people will think that your tradition is bad. So the perfect solution would be to attack their Dharma protector, then tell your close students to spread the word.

Advices like "don't go to lamas who are connected to Dorje Shugden" implies to forget about Gelug completely, as the current generation of Lamas are all influenced and under the lineage of Pabongkha who transmitted Dorje Shugden to all off them. It is pure, blatant sectarianism on a whole new level. Dorje Shugden is just a cover/excuse for such mindsets…its much more polite to say that than to deliberately say that Gelug is bad.

In that retrospect, the Dalai Lama only gave the other traditions a platform to express their disapproval for Gelugpa and at the same time. the backwardness of the Tibetan people so that some of them will see that and improve from there instead of always whitewashing history and not learning anything….

[vajra power]

Sectarianism does exist among some people of all four schools of Tibetan Buddhism, but Shugden is a whole other issue. He is a spirit and he has nothing to do with sectarian rivalry. He is a problem on his own. He is just a evil spirit.

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Tell you what - No matter what you or whoever tells me Dorje shugden is evil spirit - I will  take that as Hate message because I know form first hand experience that Dorje shugden is truly Bodhisattva. How? My father was ill and  remained in bed for very long time. But there was no pain and he used to do his Lama choepa puja every day - lying down. Realizing his end is near my dear mother request Previous Zong Rinpoche to make a visit.  she also request  the late Oracle Kungoe Kuten to make a visit to our home. Even though i was young then I can recall The oracle came to our home and went into trance  and gave long religious advice  mostly from lamrim and blessed my father. He also told my father to pray to Buddha from ten direction and His Holiness the Dalai lama. After a month or so my father passed away so peacefully with his Pecha still on his chest. There was no pain and no fear. Now how can a evil spirit gave teaching from Lamrim to dying man? Is showing a virtues path a evil deed? think of it my friend.