WHAT A POWERFUL PICTURE!!

[thaimonk]

I really like meeting Dorje Shugden when he takes full trance of the Kuten (oracle monk). It is incredible this ancient art of superior beings taking over a human body to communicate, bless, teach, and give prophecies. This is such a powerful picture.

Dorje Shugden takes trance of the oracle of Sera. This was taken in Serpom Monastery this year. I found this picture on the youtube and snagged it.

Blessings to all.

[Tenzin Gyatso]

Possessions, trances, disturbances all can be wrought by evil spirits/demons/spirits. This is nothing surprising. To dress up a monk in ceremonial clothes (most likely copied from Nechung's trance clothes) and invite spirit Shugden to enter is not a great feat.  There are thousands of people taking trance of spirits in all cultures around the world. It is a huge part of Shamanistic worship of the past.

It is for sure you cannot rely on a Shugden oracle. Oracles occupied by evil spirits will wreak havoc in the long run although in the beginning they feign help and assistance. I am not into oracles, but Nechung is the only oracle I would even consider listening to.  If HHDL approve, it's good enough for me. 

The classes we are having at the Tibetan Library is awesome. I can't catch up on everything, but what I can understand is cool. 

[Zach]

Possessions, trances, disturbances all can be wrought by evil spirits/demons/spirits. This is nothing surprising. To dress up a monk in ceremonial clothes (most likely copied from Nechung's trance clothes) and invite spirit Shugden to enter is not a great feat.  There are thousands of people taking trance of spirits in all cultures around the world. It is a huge part of Shamanistic worship of the past.

It is for sure you cannot rely on a Shugden oracle. Oracles occupied by evil spirits will wreak havoc in the long run although in the beginning they feign help and assistance. I am not into oracles, but Nechung is the only oracle I would even consider listening to.  If HHDL approve, it's good enough for me. 

The classes we are having at the Tibetan Library is awesome. I can't catch up on everything, but what I can understand is cool. 

If his Holiness had listened to Nechung in 1959 he'd be very dead 

[hope rainbow]

Possessions, trances, disturbances all can be wrought by evil spirits/demons/spirits.
This is nothing surprising.

There are thousands of people taking trance of spirits in all cultures around the world.
It is a huge part of Shamanistic worship of the past.

Indeed, it is part of what is called Shamanistic worship, of the past and of the present to.
However, in some traditions, there are spirits that are bound by an oath to enlightened beings, such as Nechung, who is not enlightened, but who is bound by his oath to Guru Rinpoche to protect the Buddhist teachings.

To dress up a monk in ceremonial clothes (most likely copied from Nechung's trance clothes) and invite spirit Shugden to enter is not a great feat. 

I beg to differ.
It is a great feat, and for the simple reason that Shugden is not a spirit, He is an enlightened protector, and He would not just come by for any other reason than sending across an enlightened message, advice or blessing.
Any message, advice or blessing form a Buddha is a great feat, I am sure we all agree on that.

It is for sure you cannot rely on a Shugden oracle.

If we can rely on Dorje Shugden, then why can't we rely on the Shugden orcale taking trance of Dorje Shugden?
I don't understand...

Oracles occupied by evil spirits will wreak havoc in the long run although in the beginning they feign help and assistance.

What about oracles that channel "spirits" bound by an oath, such as Nechung, would the same fate await the oracle taking trance of them?
Though Nechung is not an enlightened protector, he is no evil spirit, right?

I am not into oracles, but Nechung is the only oracle I would even consider listening to. 
If HHDL approve, it's good enough for me. 

Of course, one must rely on the instructions from one's Guru. 

[Tenzin Gyatso]

Possessions, trances, disturbances all can be wrought by evil spirits/demons/spirits. This is nothing surprising. To dress up a monk in ceremonial clothes (most likely copied from Nechung's trance clothes) and invite spirit Shugden to enter is not a great feat.  There are thousands of people taking trance of spirits in all cultures around the world. It is a huge part of Shamanistic worship of the past.

It is for sure you cannot rely on a Shugden oracle. Oracles occupied by evil spirits will wreak havoc in the long run although in the beginning they feign help and assistance. I am not into oracles, but Nechung is the only oracle I would even consider listening to.  If HHDL approve, it's good enough for me. 

The classes we are having at the Tibetan Library is awesome. I can't catch up on everything, but what I can understand is cool. 

If his Holiness had listened to Nechung in 1959 he'd be very dead 

Death would never stop the work of a Mahasattva like His Holiness. No worries there. His Holiness would just immediate reincarnate back to a new body. He has full control. He is Avalokitesvara as predicted by Guru Padmasambhava.

[Zach]

Possessions, trances, disturbances all can be wrought by evil spirits/demons/spirits. This is nothing surprising. To dress up a monk in ceremonial clothes (most likely copied from Nechung's trance clothes) and invite spirit Shugden to enter is not a great feat.  There are thousands of people taking trance of spirits in all cultures around the world. It is a huge part of Shamanistic worship of the past.

It is for sure you cannot rely on a Shugden oracle. Oracles occupied by evil spirits will wreak havoc in the long run although in the beginning they feign help and assistance. I am not into oracles, but Nechung is the only oracle I would even consider listening to.  If HHDL approve, it's good enough for me. 

The classes we are having at the Tibetan Library is awesome. I can't catch up on everything, but what I can understand is cool. 

If his Holiness had listened to Nechung in 1959 he'd be very dead 

Death would never stop the work of a Mahasattva like His Holiness. No worries there. His Holiness would just immediate reincarnate back to a new body. He has full control. He is Avalokitesvara as predicted by Guru Padmasambhava.

You say you'd rather listen to Nechung however it was Dorje shugden who advised the Dalai lama out of tibet and kept him safe on the long travel across the mountains along with the group he founded a few years before (Chusi Gangdruk) without Dorje shugden there would be No Dalai lama as we know him today.

[Lineageholder]

Possessions, trances, disturbances all can be wrought by evil spirits/demons/spirits...... Oracles occupied by evil spirits will wreak havoc in the long run although in the beginning they feign help and assistance.

This is evident from the havoc that the Nechung Oracle has wreaked - killing the 13th Dalai Lama, giving the Dalai Lama mistaken and misleading advice and getting many things wrong, including misinformation regarding that nature of Dorje Shugden.

The fact that the Dalai Lama is alive today is evidence that the Dorje Shugden oracle could be trusted.  The many calamities that the Nechung oracle is responsible for is evidence that he cannot be trusted.  I then wonder why the Dalai Lama continues to rely on him?  This doesn't show much wisdom.

[Tenzin Gyatso]

Possessions, trances, disturbances all can be wrought by evil spirits/demons/spirits...... Oracles occupied by evil spirits will wreak havoc in the long run although in the beginning they feign help and assistance.

This is evident from the havoc that the Nechung Oracle has wreaked - killing the 13th Dalai Lama, giving the Dalai Lama mistaken and misleading advice and getting many things wrong, including misinformation regarding that nature of Dorje Shugden.

The fact that the Dalai Lama is alive today is evidence that the Dorje Shugden oracle could be trusted.  The many calamities that the Nechung oracle is responsible for is evidence that he cannot be trusted.  I then wonder why the Dalai Lama continues to rely on him?  This doesn't show much wisdom.

Hi Lineageholder,

This is very interesting and I am enjoying the conversation here.

I was reading one of your previous threads and I quote you, "The reason why NKT does not recognise and rely on Oracles is not because of some imaginary rift between Geshe Kelsang and his Uncle but because they are not reliable." (post source: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1777.msg23957#msg23957 ). Here in the other thread you say that oracles are not reliable, but then in this thread you are saying Dorje Shugden oracles ARE reliable?

1. You are a part of NKT and your teacher is Geshe Kelsang. So Geshe-la/NKT finds them unreliable. Since you are part of NKT you also find them unreliable? Which one is it? You find them reliable or unreliable?

2. Or your opinion of oracles differ from Geshe Kelsang, your teacher?

Whichever one it is, I respect your opinion, I am just confused because your stance changes in different threads. 

[Lineageholder]

This is very interesting and I am enjoying the conversation here.

I was reading one of your previous threads and I quote you, "The reason why NKT does not recognise and rely on Oracles is not because of some imaginary rift between Geshe Kelsang and his Uncle but because they are not reliable." (post source: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1777.msg23957#msg23957 ). Here in the other thread you say that oracles are not reliable, but then in this thread you are saying Dorje Shugden oracles ARE reliable?

1. You are a part of NKT and your teacher is Geshe Kelsang. So Geshe-la/NKT finds them unreliable. Since you are part of NKT you also find them unreliable? Which one is it? You find them reliable or unreliable?

2. Or your opinion of oracles differ from Geshe Kelsang, your teacher?

Whichever one it is, I respect your opinion, I am just confused because your stance changes in different threads. 

Hi Tenzin,

I can't say for sure why NKT doesn't rely on oracles - Geshe Kelsang has never said anything against them but it does say in our Internal Rules that we will not rely on them.  My assumption is that they are generally unreliable.  The Nechung Oracle has proven that, and there are other examples from oracle invocations.  Here is one example from the chronology of events of the Dorje Shugden ban:

November 1996

H.H. the Dalai Lama attends the last day of six weeks of practices in connection with Tamdrin Yangsang, the day on which the rituals including the “taking out of the tormas” are performed. Those present are monks from Sera-Je and Nechung monasteries, and six oracles, who all went into trance. One, a female oracle, Tsering Chenma, began attacking Dorje Shugden, saying that even within this congregation there are still those who practice Dorje Shugden. Another female oracle, Yudonma, then pointed to a Lama called Jangmar Rinpoche from Drepung Loseling monastery, aged late 60's, originally from Gyalthang province of eastern Tibet, and started shouting, “This Lama is bad, he is following Dorje Shugden, take him out, take him out!.” She then started pulling his robes and grabbing his head. The Lama got up and slapped her twice. A scuffle broke out between Jangmar Rinpoche and his attendants on one side, and the oracle and monks from Nechung monastery on the other. Thus the lama was expelled. Next day he reported this incident to His Holiness directly and His Holiness said: "You have no fault, I know very well that you are not a practitioner of Dorje Shugden. Sometimes these oracles are a little too much. It is good you gave a slap." Thus he resumed his place.

http://www.shugdensociety.info/historyEvents1996EN.html

It seems that oracles are always getting things wrong - however, I cannot deny that the Dorje Shugden oracle gave precise instructions on how the Dalai Lama was to escape from Tibet, and, as they say, 'the proof of the pudding is in the eating' because the Dalai Lama escaped safely from Tibet.  In that case the Dorje Shugden oracle proved to be completely reliable but it could be that in these degenerate times it is hard to find a qualified oracle.

So, in general, it's my own view that oracles are unreliable but I cannot deny that the Dorje Shugden oracle is the main reason why the Dalai Lama is alive today and if he is going to rely on oracles, he would be better off relying on one that seems to work rather than one that doesn't (Nechung).

[hope rainbow]

So, in general, it's my own view that oracles are unreliable but I cannot deny that the Dorje Shugden oracle is the main reason why the Dalai Lama is alive today and if he is going to rely on oracles, he would be better off relying on one that seems to work rather than one that doesn't (Nechung).

I would be more cautious as to how "reliable" or "unreliable" Nechung is.
We do know that he is not enlightened yet, but we also know that he is bound by oath.

Now, if he really was that unreliable, then why does the Dalai Lama still consult him?
I do not believe that the Dalai Lama would keep consulting someone who is repetitively unreliable.

So I am wondering about Nechung and how much what he does may be part of a dynamic to help us see the truth.
Let's not forget that there is undeniably a relationship between Nechung and Dorje Shugden (refer to the illustrated story and there is more), so what was this relationship about in 1959, and now still?

I can't see it, but there is something more there than meet the eyes...

Nechung takes the blame for "poisoning" the 13th Dalai Lama -a story on which there is much to tell but that seems easier to explain by an "ill advice from Nechung about a potion"!

Nechung takes the blame for ill-advising the Dalai Lama in Lhassa in 1959.

Nechung again takes the blame for the non-event in what was predicted for the Dalai Lama to return to Tibet...

And yet, it is said that Nechung is now very near to enlightenment!
And yet, HH still seeks for his advice?
The pieces do not fit.... I think there is more than meet the eyes.

[Lineageholder]

I would be more cautious as to how "reliable" or "unreliable" Nechung is.
We do know that he is not enlightened yet, but we also know that he is bound by oath.

Hi hope rainbow,

I think we need to distinguish between Nechung and the Nechung ORACLE.

The oracle is unreliable, Nechung may not be.

And regarding the Dalai Lama's reliance on the Nechung oracle, it doesn't make any sense to rely on him because he is always giving bad advice.  That's the evidence, I'm afraid, it's up to you to interpret the reason why.  I just think the Dalai Lama doesn't demonstrate much wisdom by relying on a worldly being in the first place.

[WisdomBeing]

The Nechung question has always perplexed me as I simply do not see the logic. As has been previously mentioned, why does the Dalai Lama continue to propitiate an unenlightened protector, who was previously and indisputably an evil spirit (or legion of spirits)? And yet he is so adamantly against Dorje Shugden who he now claims is an evil spirit, but who he has previously (and also indisputably) praised as an enlightened being?

If the Dalai Lama is an enlightened being, he cannot possibly make mistakes on whether a being is enlightened or not. Or whether Nechung is correct or not? I read somewhere that highly attained Lamas actually have clairvoyance already and know the answers to questions they ask the oracle. Which also makes me think that if the Lamas already know the answers by clairvoyance, surely they would know if the advice given by the respective oracles (enlightened or unenlightened) is accurate or not?

[hope rainbow]

Hi hope rainbow,

I think we need to distinguish between Nechung and the Nechung ORACLE.

The oracle is unreliable, Nechung may not be.

And regarding the Dalai Lama's reliance on the Nechung oracle, it doesn't make any sense to rely on him because he is always giving bad advice.  That's the evidence, I'm afraid, it's up to you to interpret the reason why.  I just think the Dalai Lama doesn't demonstrate much wisdom by relying on a worldly being in the first place.

Hi LH,

What does make an oracle unreliable?
If the oracle is a vehicle fit to take trance of a deity or Buddha, then how is he not reliable?
I mean, one the body of the oracle is taken over by the Deity, we are talking about the deity, not the oracle himself anymore, right?
Or do you mean to say that perhaps the oracle may be chanelling a spirit pretending to be a Protector or a Buddha? And therefore the oracle is not reliable?

Thank you for clarifying.
Hope Rainbow

[DSFriend]

Possessions, trances, disturbances all can be wrought by evil spirits/demons/spirits. This is nothing surprising. To dress up a monk in ceremonial clothes (most likely copied from Nechung's trance clothes) and invite spirit Shugden to enter is not a great feat.  There are thousands of people taking trance of spirits in all cultures around the world. It is a huge part of Shamanistic worship of the past.

It is for sure you cannot rely on a Shugden oracle. Oracles occupied by evil spirits will wreak havoc in the long run although in the beginning they feign help and assistance. I am not into oracles, but Nechung is the only oracle I would even consider listening to.  If HHDL approve, it's good enough for me. 

The classes we are having at the Tibetan Library is awesome. I can't catch up on everything, but what I can understand is cool. 

It's good you have access to the Tibetan Library and obviously you have access to information from this website which serves to educate thousands of people around the world about who Dorje Shugden is and he is obviously not a spirit but an enlightened being.

What makes you believe one side of the story and not considering the other side? Have you considered perhaps the two sides of the stories are actually leading to the same end and that this website is not about discrediting HHDL.

[shugdenprotect]

Thank you all for your well thought out presentation of thoughts and points of view. I have learnt a lot from just reading the debate that is going on in this thread.

May I humbly add that I believe reliability and consistency of oracles depends strongly on whether they are channeling enlightened or unenlightened beings. Oracles for enlightened Buddha should communicate from a level of complete clairvoyance when in trance. Thus, the accuracy of their prophesies are always reliable. On the contrary, relying on oracles of unenlightened being, we are relying on a view that is still limited. Thus, their prophesies should have some short-comings naturally.

I was fortunate enough to be in the presence of a Dorje Shugden oracle in trance. The energy the oracle emits is to compassionate and “clean”. The responses to the questions presented were all accurately as proven by the passing of time.

Perhaps, regardless of our stand on this matter, we should take a moment to actually appreciate the beautiful image shared. To have the opportunity to see an authentic oracle who has served and benefited so many people, we are truly blessed. We should also consider that although some authentic oracles may give inaccurate predictions, they must have done some good (probably more than less) for others, which is another plus point that deserves acknowledgement.