WHAT A POWERFUL PICTURE!!

[triesa]

The Nechung question has always perplexed me as I simply do not see the logic. As has been previously mentioned, why does the Dalai Lama continue to propitiate an unenlightened protector, who was previously and indisputably an evil spirit (or legion of spirits)? And yet he is so adamantly against Dorje Shugden who he now claims is an evil spirit, but who he has previously (and also indisputably) praised as an enlightened being?

If the Dalai Lama is an enlightened being, he cannot possibly make mistakes on whether a being is enlightened or not. Or whether Nechung is correct or not? I read somewhere that highly attained Lamas actually have clairvoyance already and know the answers to questions they ask the oracle. Which also makes me think that if the Lamas already know the answers by clairvoyance, surely they would know if the advice given by the respective oracles (enlightened or unenlightened) is accurate or not?

I would like to elaborate a bit on what Wisdom Being has brought out, highly attained lamas like Dalai Lama do have clairvoyance, and I do believe that Dalai Lama does not need to consult another enllightened being, let alone unlightened being like Nechung through an oracle.

This is very similar to high lamas doing divinations for people, the high lamas do not need to throw dice, or whatsoever, they know what is the best advice to give to those people who ask the questions, but because of the level of our minds that tend to follow advice or instructions better if the advice looks like it is from the divine.

Similarly, as with oracles, we will take the instructions/advice better since we think it is from the divine again, some kind of external mighty power, even the exixtence of oracles are for the benefits for lay people like us.

Then back to why there are so many inconsistencies with Dalai Lama practising and praising Dorje Shugden first and then later condemning DS as an evil spirit,  and also Nechung displaying inaccuracy in many of his prophecies, this does not create any logic and sense at all. I can only find the answer to all these puzzles by thinking there is something which we all cannot see for now, and I believed that all these highly evolved beings are bringing forth something bigger, something more benefical to everyone. Afterall, why would Dalai Lama makes himself inconsistent and look rediculous if everyone propitiate him as Chenrizig?   

[Barzin]

To me I think that even the oracle can not be mistaken.  They are the chosen ones to go through training, recognized by high attained masters and gurus.  Of course, the ultimate His Holiness would have know and recognized them so how can even an oracle be wrong?  If the oracle can't be wrong then how can the deity that being invited is wrong?  If Dorje Shugden is wrong, then the oracle is wrong, if the oracle is wrong then the guru is wrong, it leads all the way back to the lineage then the whole monastic system is wrong!!!  If the whole monastic system is wrong, oh dear then Buddhism as a whole is wrong!

How can it be just Nechung and His Holiness is right?  It is just pure logic.  Few thousand years of practice proven by high attained beings, gurus and lamas to what we are today are pure practices.  If it is unpure,  I would love to see more images of evil spirit being propiated rather than just "Shugden" himself.  Not to mention the work he has accomplished in his previous life time.  I am so honour to be in the presence of the Kuten, Shugden oracle and witness the very king himself during the recent visit to the monastery.

I am much honoured that the practice and tradition is pure and unbroken.  How many people actually get blessing and questions answered so they can be better and practice dharma.  No offense,  but sorry I haven't heard much about Nechung. But I hope more people would stop questioning about Dorje Shugden amd the oracle...

[beggar]

In relying on the accuracy (or not) of oracles, I believe it is important also to consider who it was that installed them as an oracle and gave them the necessary training.

It's been explaining before that the training that an oracle has to undergo is very extensive and specifically guided and observed by a qualified Lama. It's not just someone wanting to take trance invoking beings at their own will! Some individuals may have certain propensities that make it "easier" for them to take trance, but they must still undergo the proper training, retreats and individual practices that their Lama would recommend to allow for the smoothest and most accurate trances BY THE CORRECT BEINGS. The Lama doesn't just prepare the oracle to take trance of enlightened beings, but I am certain, also guides the oracle on stopping other negative, or lesser, beings from trying to enter also.

So it is important to consider where he got his training from, where he studied and whether or not he has undergone the extensive, necessary retreats. There are oracles existing in the world today who have been made oracles by Trijang Rinpoche himself. with the trust that I have in Trijang Rinpoche's incomparable knowledge and attainments and  I would not doubt these oracles, nor the beings that enter them. If it's good enough for Trijang Rinpoche, it's certainly good enough for the rest of us.

[Ensapa]

In relying on the accuracy (or not) of oracles, I believe it is important also to consider who it was that installed them as an oracle and gave them the necessary training.

It's been explaining before that the training that an oracle has to undergo is very extensive and specifically guided and observed by a qualified Lama. It's not just someone wanting to take trance invoking beings at their own will! Some individuals may have certain propensities that make it "easier" for them to take trance, but they must still undergo the proper training, retreats and individual practices that their Lama would recommend to allow for the smoothest and most accurate trances BY THE CORRECT BEINGS. The Lama doesn't just prepare the oracle to take trance of enlightened beings, but I am certain, also guides the oracle on stopping other negative, or lesser, beings from trying to enter also.

So it is important to consider where he got his training from, where he studied and whether or not he has undergone the extensive, necessary retreats. There are oracles existing in the world today who have been made oracles by Trijang Rinpoche himself. with the trust that I have in Trijang Rinpoche's incomparable knowledge and attainments and  I would not doubt these oracles, nor the beings that enter them. If it's good enough for Trijang Rinpoche, it's certainly good enough for the rest of us.

If I am not mistaken, the oracle in training has to finish retreats that amount to millions of mantras, and the retreats are done one after another, and each retreat has millions of mantras to finish. The purpose of the retreats is to prepare the body to take on the energy of the Dharma protector as the organs and channels will expand to accommodate the Dharma protector.

After the internal organs have gained strength through the retreats, the oracle in training will then be possessed repeatedly, non stop 24/7 by the lesser entourage of the Dharma protector to further widen and dilate the channels so that the actual Dharma protector can enter and reside. This is a very painful process and the oracle must be both physically and mentally strong to go through it.

All of these trainings will be overseen by a lama who is well versed in such activities and teachings and never by the potential oracle himself or herself. Blessings from the lama is extremely important to enable the oracle to take trance of the Dharma protector. Without the Lama's blessing, the Dharma protector will not and never enter the oracle, as the Lama is always higher than the Dharma protector.

If you want to criticize the Kuten lamas, first ask yourself what qualifications do you have to undergo such training? Can you go through retreats that need millions of mantras, and its not just one or two but a whole series of them! Then go through the purge from the lesser entourages....if we cannot do so we should not make nasty rumors against someone who can.

[ilikeshugden]

I really want to see Dorje Shugden when he takes full trance of the Kuten. I find it really fascinating to see a monk get into full ceremonial garb and then be taken over by an Enlightened being. Oracles of Dorje Shugden haves saved the lives of great being such as His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama. If he did not listen to Dorje Shugden and just confided in Nechung, His Holiness would already be reincarnated into his 15th incarnation.

[LosangKhyentse]

There are many videos showing Dorje Shugden taking trance. The most recent is when He took trance in Serpom Monastery's grand opening.

TK

[Lineageholder]

Hi LH,

What does make an oracle unreliable?
If the oracle is a vehicle fit to take trance of a deity or Buddha, then how is he not reliable?
I mean, one the body of the oracle is taken over by the Deity, we are talking about the deity, not the oracle himself anymore, right?
Or do you mean to say that perhaps the oracle may be chanelling a spirit pretending to be a Protector or a Buddha? And therefore the oracle is not reliable?

Thank you for clarifying.
Hope Rainbow

Dear hope rainbow,

I hope this doesn't sound too crass, but what makes an oracle unsuitable is worldly concerns.

Perhaps he's faking it for worldly rewards?

Just a thought 

[Lineageholder]

The Nechung question has always perplexed me as I simply do not see the logic. As has been previously mentioned, why does the Dalai Lama continue to propitiate an unenlightened protector, who was previously and indisputably an evil spirit (or legion of spirits)? And yet he is so adamantly against Dorje Shugden who he now claims is an evil spirit, but who he has previously (and also indisputably) praised as an enlightened being?

If the Dalai Lama is an enlightened being, he cannot possibly make mistakes on whether a being is enlightened or not. Or whether Nechung is correct or not? I read somewhere that highly attained Lamas actually have clairvoyance already and know the answers to questions they ask the oracle. Which also makes me think that if the Lamas already know the answers by clairvoyance, surely they would know if the advice given by the respective oracles (enlightened or unenlightened) is accurate or not?

Kate, these are all good logical inconsistencies!  I'd like to know the answers too.

[VS]

Hi LH,

What does make an oracle unreliable?
If the oracle is a vehicle fit to take trance of a deity or Buddha, then how is he not reliable?
I mean, one the body of the oracle is taken over by the Deity, we are talking about the deity, not the oracle himself anymore, right?
Or do you mean to say that perhaps the oracle may be chanelling a spirit pretending to be a Protector or a Buddha? And therefore the oracle is not reliable?

Thank you for clarifying.
Hope Rainbow

Dear hope rainbow,

I hope this doesn't sound too crass, but what makes an oracle unsuitable is worldly concerns.

Perhaps he's faking it for worldly rewards?

Just a thought 

I do agree with Hope Rainbow that what makes an oracle unsuitable is perhaps he is faking it for worldly rewards.

I heard from a friend quite some time ago that there was this person who took trance in the presence of the Guru quite often. This Guru reconfirmed with the Protector whether or not this person is a suitable oracle. The Protector confirmed this and the Guru gave His blessings for this person to be trained as an oracle.

After going through of the retreats and training required to become an oracle, this person became a very successful and well known oracle in the place he resides, helping and healing a lot of people.

However, greed, name, fame and power soon became too 'attractive' for this oracle who even went against his Guru.

From what i heard after that was the Guru forbids the Protector to take trance in this oracle. In the beginning, this oracle faked taking trance. However, people soon lost faith in this oracle and the centre where this oracle was from became less popular.

This shows that the protector listens and take instructions from the Lama. The downfall of an oracle is due to his or her attachments to worldly materials.

[Positive Change]

Thank you all for your well thought out presentation of thoughts and points of view. I have learnt a lot from just reading the debate that is going on in this thread.

May I humbly add that I believe reliability and consistency of oracles depends strongly on whether they are channeling enlightened or unenlightened beings. Oracles for enlightened Buddha should communicate from a level of complete clairvoyance when in trance. Thus, the accuracy of their prophesies are always reliable. On the contrary, relying on oracles of unenlightened being, we are relying on a view that is still limited. Thus, their prophesies should have some short-comings naturally.

I was fortunate enough to be in the presence of a Dorje Shugden oracle in trance. The energy the oracle emits is to compassionate and “clean”. The responses to the questions presented were all accurately as proven by the passing of time.

Perhaps, regardless of our stand on this matter, we should take a moment to actually appreciate the beautiful image shared. To have the opportunity to see an authentic oracle who has served and benefited so many people, we are truly blessed. We should also consider that although some authentic oracles may give inaccurate predictions, they must have done some good (probably more than less) for others, which is another plus point that deserves acknowledgement.

How can an authentic oracle of an enlightened being give inaccurate predictions? Unless you are talking about authentic oracles of non enlightened beings like Nechung. That said, with regards to Nechung and "consultations" by HHDL... sometimes I wonder if these affairs are generally all played out for the other people in the room/hall. Surely HHDL an emanation of Chenrezig needs no oracle taking trance of Nechung an unenlightened being to tell HH what to do and what advice to heed.

Perhap there is more than really meets the eye with these theatrics! The thing to question is, do us lay people believe more in the mystical rather than what is living and breathing in front of us? For example our own teachers...

[kris]

More often than not, I was asked, many times, about how legitimate of high beings such as Dorje Shugden taking trance. A lot of my friends ask if they are for real, and "how to prove it is real".

This is the logic I heard from one of the Lamas:

* If you believe that there are ghosts, bad spirits (which most/all of the friends who asked these questions believe), then there must be higher beings and good spirits.
* If you believed that ghosts can take possession of people (which most/all of my friends), then why can't a higher being like Dorje Shugden take possession of a person?
* How do you prove that a ghost took possession? Why is it that we don't ask to prove about ghost took possession but we insist on prove about higher beings' taking trance?

Of course the Lama explained that, there are ways to check if the trance is valid. For example, you can ask a question in a language not understood by the oracle, and yet still getting the correct results.

[triesa]

More often than not, I was asked, many times, about how legitimate of high beings such as Dorje Shugden taking trance. A lot of my friends ask if they are for real, and "how to prove it is real".

This is the logic I heard from one of the Lamas:

* If you believe that there are ghosts, bad spirits (which most/all of the friends who asked these questions believe), then there must be higher beings and good spirits.
* If you believed that ghosts can take possession of people (which most/all of my friends), then why can't a higher being like Dorje Shugden take possession of a person?
* How do you prove that a ghost took possession? Why is it that we don't ask to prove about ghost took possession but we insist on prove about higher beings' taking trance?

Of course the Lama explained that, there are ways to check if the trance is valid. For example, you can ask a question in a language not understood by the oracle, and yet still getting the correct results.

I totally agree with what Kris said here....very logical if we think deeper. Why would we persistently ask for proof for higher beings taking trance in oracles and not for those whereby people are pocessed by ghosts? Why do we selectively question the authenticity of oracles and higher beings who can actually use oracles as a medium to convey advices to us?

I was looking through my photo file and am glad I finally found these pictures.

I have the good fortune to meet with the DS oracle on a trip to Nepal on 2004 at HE Dagom Rinpoche's ladrang, Dagom Rinpoche was still alive. You can all see in the following pics that Dagom Rinpoche was on the right hand side of the pictures. I personally witnessed that King Dorje Shugden came for a very short time to give blessing to all of us that were present, threw out protector rice and  than came the peaceful messenger Karche Marpo who answered our questions one by one slowly.

It was a very blessed occasion for me.

[triesa]

Dear all, on a closer look at the pics I have just posted, I notice the presence of  "orbes" ...........during the trance.....

in CIMG 0870 - On right hand side of oracle
                      - Head of lady with poney tail/red hair band

in CIMG 0872 - On Dagom Rinpoche's shoulder
                      - Near victory banner on right hand side of pic

[Aurore]

More often than not, I was asked, many times, about how legitimate of high beings such as Dorje Shugden taking trance. A lot of my friends ask if they are for real, and "how to prove it is real".

This is the logic I heard from one of the Lamas:

* If you believe that there are ghosts, bad spirits (which most/all of the friends who asked these questions believe), then there must be higher beings and good spirits.
* If you believed that ghosts can take possession of people (which most/all of my friends), then why can't a higher being like Dorje Shugden take possession of a person?
* How do you prove that a ghost took possession? Why is it that we don't ask to prove about ghost took possession but we insist on prove about higher beings' taking trance?

Of course the Lama explained that, there are ways to check if the trance is valid. For example, you can ask a question in a language not understood by the oracle, and yet still getting the correct results.

There's a few other methods to authenticate the oracle.
1. For one, the oracle must not know what is happening throughout the trance. The oracle must have complete lost of consciousness during the whole time in trance.
2. The oracle will consume a substantial amount of liquor and leave no breath of alcohol and signs of losing control.
3. The oracle's hat if worn on normal circumstances will most likely snap the oracle's neck.
4. The oracle in trance possesses incredible strength.


I have a few uncertainties and questions in my mind.
If we have a teacher who is far-sighted and possesses clairvoyance because of his attainments, do we need to consult an oracle? Are oracles for people who rather believe in oracles rather than their own teacher who is seen as ordinary without any powers because of the humility they display?

Where does the mind go during the whole time the protector has taken over the body as a vessel. Does anybody know?

[Ensapa]

There's a few other methods to authenticate the oracle.
1. For one, the oracle must not know what is happening throughout the trance. The oracle must have complete lost of consciousness during the whole time in trance.
2. The oracle will consume a substantial amount of liquor and leave no breath of alcohol and signs of losing control.
3. The oracle's hat if worn on normal circumstances will most likely snap the oracle's neck.
4. The oracle in trance possesses incredible strength.


I have a few uncertainties and questions in my mind.
If we have a teacher who is far-sighted and possesses clairvoyance because of his attainments, do we need to consult an oracle? Are oracles for people who rather believe in oracles rather than their own teacher who is seen as ordinary without any powers because of the humility they display?

Where does the mind go during the whole time the protector has taken over the body as a vessel. Does anybody know?

If we have a teacher of such calibre, and even if we dont have a teacher of such calibre, we should just trust the teacher all the way. However since humans are social creatures and they tend to follow the crowd rather than stick to the 1-2 people they know, some teachers find it very difficult to make the student see the truth and reasoning behind his or her ideas, therefore oracles will have to be employed.

Logically, we do not need to consult an oracle but there are 2 factors that come in mind: 1) Do we need to burden our teachers with questions that requires clairvoyance to verify? if we do but the teacher chooses to be humble or that he will see that it is not easy for us to accept his advice, he will "consult an oracle" to help convince us. 2) With so much distractions and so many teachers, if we feel that we need to listen to only our teacher and he introduces a challenging idea for us, can we accept it or do we need "backup?" If we do need backup, the teacher will again consult the oracle for our sakes.

Oracles are there to vouch for the teacher, or if the student has a question that is not proper to ask to a teacher, like for example if they have obstacles, or if they need help, how can you ask your Guru to clear your obstacles? How rude and inconsiderate!! Therefore oracles/Dharma protectors manifests so that we can direct our problems there and get the appropriate solutions for our Dharma obstacles.

For your last question, when a person takes trance, the consciousness is temporarily disengaged from the body including the brain so they are no longer able to perceive anything through their senses. They are not "outside" of the body, but still remains inside, just disengaged. The protector wil take control of the body and its winds and channels and due to a difference in energy the protector will oracle's organs will expand to fit the energy.

I am not too sure if this is how it works but through my logic and reasoning and understanding of the mind, this is the most logical explanation that i can think of.