Does Dorje Shugden really shorten HH the Dalai Lama's life?

[whitelion]

HHDL is giving a series of Lamrim Chenmo teaching in Gaden and Drepung monastery right now, and HH seems very fit in video. I wonder what is it like in Gaden/Shar Gaden?

If DS an evil spirit that are powerful enough to shorten HHDL life, why should DS still allowed HHDL to teach Dharma just next to his temple ? Lamrim Chenmo is one of the main teaching that well spread by HHDL's tutor HH Trijang Dorje Chang and the Mahasiddha HH Pabongka Dorje Chang. Both HH Trijang Dorje Chang and HH Pabongka Dorje Chang are also well known DS lineage lama, and I believe HHDL also receive Lamrim Chenmo from HH Trijang Dorje Chang.

Since HH Trijang Dorje Chang lineage is “unclean", shouldn't be whatever teaching that giving by HHDL this few days also consider "unclean", so what's the point of receiving it ?

Of course not... Whatever teaching that passed down from HH Pabongka Rinpoche to HH Trijang Rinpoche then to HH Dalai Lama will only be "clean" and pure, which included the Dorje Shugden lineage. How can a lama passed to a student something not right or evil ? If a Lama passed something bad to the students, which created a damage in the student's spiritual practice, this lama himself will created a lot of bad karma. So why HH Pabongka Rinpoche and HH Trijang Rinpoche still taking rebirth in a human form ? 

We should really think about it.

[dsiluvu]

It seems that every thing His Holiness is doing or is happening these days is the opposite of what His Holiness claims Dorje Shugden would be doing towards Tibet and him.

So are all these hints pointing towards the direction that his reasons for Banning Dorje Shugden is getting more and more weak and ridiculous. Surely HHDL is smart and aware enough that everything He says would be picked up by Shugden practitioners and China. So now we can see... after the Ban...

1. His Holiness is still healthy and promises of living longer up till He is 90
2. Tibet is still in China's firm grip and no sign of them loosening this grip
3. Instead of Dorje Shugden creating separatism... it is actually the Tibetan Govt and people themselves who have split themselves up through this Ban.
4. People are dying more and more each day due to politics... not their spiritual belief in Dorje Shugden. In fact the Shugdenpas are the ones making progress and has not cause a single problem to anyone
5.  The degeneration in Buddhism is happening because Peaceful Buddhist people are burning themselves, accusing and discriminating others and causing chaos not Dorje Shugden practitioners

....and so much more

So either people are blind, deaf, or just down right ignoring the facts... there has so far been zero truth to all the allegations made and created about Dorje Shugden and seems like His Holiness is pointing towards that directly subtle when He says He will live long.

[Ensapa]

It seems that every thing His Holiness is doing or is happening these days is the opposite of what His Holiness claims Dorje Shugden would be doing towards Tibet and him.

So are all these hints pointing towards the direction that his reasons for Banning Dorje Shugden is getting more and more weak and ridiculous. Surely HHDL is smart and aware enough that everything He says would be picked up by Shugden practitioners and China. So now we can see... after the Ban...

1. His Holiness is still healthy and promises of living longer up till He is 90
2. Tibet is still in China's firm grip and no sign of them loosening this grip
3. Instead of Dorje Shugden creating separatism... it is actually the Tibetan Govt and people themselves who have split themselves up through this Ban.
4. People are dying more and more each day due to politics... not their spiritual belief in Dorje Shugden. In fact the Shugdenpas are the ones making progress and has not cause a single problem to anyone
5.  The degeneration in Buddhism is happening because Peaceful Buddhist people are burning themselves, accusing and discriminating others and causing chaos not Dorje Shugden practitioners

....and so much more

So either people are blind, deaf, or just down right ignoring the facts... there has so far been zero truth to all the allegations made and created about Dorje Shugden and seems like His Holiness is pointing towards that directly subtle when He says He will live long.

Not to mention that none of the Tibetans are working towards their independence the correct way (i.e not angering China and have a more peaceful approach to china that is obviously more constructive) and instead they hope for a magical solution to their problem, which they expect the Dalai Lama to pull out from his hat. Whatever the CTA is doing now, including the self immolations are counterproductive to their independence, but they still do it anyway without realizing what it does. Or they do, but it is just easier to give in to their emotions rather than doing what's right.

[Namdrol]

Indeed, that's just one of Dalai Lama's skillful means to create a hype for Dorje Shugden, I mean if he wants to ban Shugden, he will cite reasons like Shugden is a demon, it will harm Tibet's cause, it will shorten his life...etc, so far we can see that Tibet is a lost cause, so that will be conveniently blamed on Shugden, but about the Dalai Lama part, he is still very healthy and no sign of passing anytime soon. For a 76-year old man, still traveling around the world giving teachings non-stop is quite a magnificent feat.

So of all the reasons that Dalai Lama cited "bad" about Shugden, some "came true", some does not...So the Dalai Lama is wrong in his prediction? Wrong in his perception of how harmful Shugden is?

The irony is, as the Dalai Lama lives longer (we hope so), his reason of banning Shugden (shortening his life) weakens...
 

[Ensapa]

Indeed, that's just one of Dalai Lama's skillful means to create a hype for Dorje Shugden, I mean if he wants to ban Shugden, he will cite reasons like Shugden is a demon, it will harm Tibet's cause, it will shorten his life...etc, so far we can see that Tibet is a lost cause, so that will be conveniently blamed on Shugden, but about the Dalai Lama part, he is still very healthy and no sign of passing anytime soon. For a 76-year old man, still traveling around the world giving teachings non-stop is quite a magnificent feat.

So of all the reasons that Dalai Lama cited "bad" about Shugden, some "came true", some does not...So the Dalai Lama is wrong in his prediction? Wrong in his perception of how harmful Shugden is?

The irony is, as the Dalai Lama lives longer (we hope so), his reason of banning Shugden (shortening his life) weakens...

Actually, if the Dalai Lama really wanted to ban Dorje Shugden, he would have ordered that his name and the name of his previous incarnations be removed from the Tengyur and in the monasteries. I doubt that he would have talked so much about Dorje Shugden and allow the monks to still use materials that were created by Panchen Sonam Drakpa, and he would have removed historical prayers and records from the library, like what Sakya had did, which explains why some scholars 'fail' to find any evidence of Dorje Shugden practice in the Sakya tradition, but some scholars who were earlier than them managed to find. That aside, it seems that the Dorje Shugden movement is getting bigger than ever, and nobody can stop it now.

[dsiluvu]

Indeed, that's just one of Dalai Lama's skillful means to create a hype for Dorje Shugden, I mean if he wants to ban Shugden, he will cite reasons like Shugden is a demon, it will harm Tibet's cause, it will shorten his life...etc, so far we can see that Tibet is a lost cause, so that will be conveniently blamed on Shugden, but about the Dalai Lama part, he is still very healthy and no sign of passing anytime soon. For a 76-year old man, still traveling around the world giving teachings non-stop is quite a magnificent feat.

So of all the reasons that Dalai Lama cited "bad" about Shugden, some "came true", some does not...So the Dalai Lama is wrong in his prediction? Wrong in his perception of how harmful Shugden is?

The irony is, as the Dalai Lama lives longer (we hope so), his reason of banning Shugden (shortening his life) weakens...
 

It is actually happening already.... since the time the BAN's campaign started, 1996.... up untill today 2012... we do not see HHDL slowing down or any sign of his life in danger. It is in fact quite the opposite actually and the irony of it all, is that Dorje Shugden is being perpetuated even more strongly now. I mean we can hear and see more and more monasteries formed by Dorje Shugden practitioners appearing all around the world. And if really praying to Dorje Shugden can shorten HHDL life, and then it would have happened already a very long time ago.

Also with a new set of govt body, new set of ruling power, no more Dorje Shugden practice, how come we still do not hear of a dialogue on spiritual autonomy, (no need to talk about Tibet's independence as the goal was changed when they realised is was not possible) and even this is not working out. Plus going around burning yourselves, you're just creating bigger obstacles for the Tibetans and no where near achieving any favorable with China [sigh].

Perhaps HHDL has decided to dissolve the whole entire Tibetan Govt... a premeditated stance so that it all dissolves naturally?

[Ensapa]

Indeed, that's just one of Dalai Lama's skillful means to create a hype for Dorje Shugden, I mean if he wants to ban Shugden, he will cite reasons like Shugden is a demon, it will harm Tibet's cause, it will shorten his life...etc, so far we can see that Tibet is a lost cause, so that will be conveniently blamed on Shugden, but about the Dalai Lama part, he is still very healthy and no sign of passing anytime soon. For a 76-year old man, still traveling around the world giving teachings non-stop is quite a magnificent feat.

So of all the reasons that Dalai Lama cited "bad" about Shugden, some "came true", some does not...So the Dalai Lama is wrong in his prediction? Wrong in his perception of how harmful Shugden is?

The irony is, as the Dalai Lama lives longer (we hope so), his reason of banning Shugden (shortening his life) weakens...
 

It is actually happening already.... since the time the BAN's campaign started, 1996.... up untill today 2012... we do not see HHDL slowing down or any sign of his life in danger. It is in fact quite the opposite actually and the irony of it all, is that Dorje Shugden is being perpetuated even more strongly now. I mean we can hear and see more and more monasteries formed by Dorje Shugden practitioners appearing all around the world. And if really praying to Dorje Shugden can shorten HHDL life, and then it would have happened already a very long time ago.

Also with a new set of govt body, new set of ruling power, no more Dorje Shugden practice, how come we still do not hear of a dialogue on spiritual autonomy, (no need to talk about Tibet's independence as the goal was changed when they realised is was not possible) and even this is not working out. Plus going around burning yourselves, you're just creating bigger obstacles for the Tibetans and no where near achieving any favorable with China [sigh].

Perhaps HHDL has decided to dissolve the whole entire Tibetan Govt... a premeditated stance so that it all dissolves naturally?

The Tibetans could have spent more time and brainpower to think of a solution to entering talks with the Chinese for autonomy/independence/whatever it is they want but instead of doing that they are stretching out their already thin resources to ban Dorje Shugden. Yes, they are successful, but only in Dharamsala and nowhere else in discriminating and oppressing Dorje Shugden practitioners. It's a tiny and insignificant achievement for 50 years of sponging off Indian soil. Wouldnt it be so much better to focus instead on working things out with the Chinese, or on development?

[Barzin]

it is nice to see this post resurface again, looking back and you compare with the time now.  It is more apparent that not only His Holiness is as healthy as ever, still spreading dharma tirelessly and also this website has gotten to millions, the Dorje Shugden's practice has break into China and various parts of the world, more of Shugden's merchanise and images available and an increase in the number of practitioners!  Dorje Shugden's practice bad?  Nah, I don't think so.

[Ensapa]

it is nice to see this post resurface again, looking back and you compare with the time now.  It is more apparent that not only His Holiness is as healthy as ever, still spreading dharma tirelessly and also this website has gotten to millions, the Dorje Shugden's practice has break into China and various parts of the world, more of Shugden's merchanise and images available and an increase in the number of practitioners!  Dorje Shugden's practice bad?  Nah, I don't think so.

The nice thing about this topic is that it makes people think on all the reasons given about Dorje Shugden - whether or not it's real or that it is something that is not substantial, something that does not have proof or truth in them and whether or not they want to go on and believe in something just to join the club or really believe in the actual cause that Dorje Shugden actually increases spirit worship. It is finally a time for the Dalai Lama's followers to wake up and see what is going on rather than continue to have blind faith and in the process incur a lot of negative karma for themselves and harming many others in the process.

[Aurore]

I think the Dalai Lama has made it very clear from his reasons and claims that he is being contradictory. Yes, Ensapa is right. It's time for people to start figuring this out. If I am a Dalai Lama hardcore supporter, first I will be worried his life will be shorten. Then I will rejoice and be very happy upon hearing him say he's going to live till 90. Then I should start thinking how is this supposed to be when so many people are still practicing Dorje Shugden which can shorten his life? These are some thought process that I feel could possibly arise if one take some time for contemplation and logical thinking. Let aside the anger and blind faith.

[Ensapa]

I think the Dalai Lama has made it very clear from his reasons and claims that he is being contradictory. Yes, Ensapa is right. It's time for people to start figuring this out. If I am a Dalai Lama hardcore supporter, first I will be worried his life will be shorten. Then I will rejoice and be very happy upon hearing him say he's going to live till 90. Then I should start thinking how is this supposed to be when so many people are still practicing Dorje Shugden which can shorten his life? These are some thought process that I feel could possibly arise if one take some time for contemplation and logical thinking. Let aside the anger and blind faith.

The reason why those people do not feel this way is pretty apparent: They do not really follow the Dalai Lama for the Dharma or for spiritual reasons, but rather because its a groupie thing: they feel that by following the Dalai Lama, they would be part of this really cool group in the world as Buddhists. But unfortunately for them, Buddhism isnt about being in a group in that way. Buddhism is about transforming the mind and also getting rid of bad habits so too bad for them, in a way.

[Big Uncle]

I guess the threat of Dorje Shugden practice shortening the Dalai Lama's life may be believable to some Tibetans living in fear and superstition but it does not work for foreign practitioners of Dorje Shugden who are seeking a religious tradition that makes logical sense. How can someone with refuge like the Dalai Lama be harmed by Dorje Shugden? It doesn't make sense. This has been said many times over but it has got to said again.

Anyway, from this website we can see that Dorje Shugden practice is growing in the world and even Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and the other great Dorje Shugden Lamas are coming out to travel and teach once more. There doesn't seem to be any effect upon the health of the Dalai Lama. He looks so healthy and may live for another hundred years or so.

For me, the Dalai Lama is definitely doing something with this ban and it is definitely not to extend his life. To me, that's very obvious and I am not really trying to create some kind of controversy but the results of the ban is pretty plain to see - the strong practitioners have remained steadfast, some are secretly practicing while others are mobilizing for the time when the ban gets lifted to spread Dorje Shugden out into the world.

[Ensapa]

I guess the threat of Dorje Shugden practice shortening the Dalai Lama's life may be believable to some Tibetans living in fear and superstition but it does not work for foreign practitioners of Dorje Shugden who are seeking a religious tradition that makes logical sense. How can someone with refuge like the Dalai Lama be harmed by Dorje Shugden? It doesn't make sense. This has been said many times over but it has got to said again.

Anyway, from this website we can see that Dorje Shugden practice is growing in the world and even Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and the other great Dorje Shugden Lamas are coming out to travel and teach once more. There doesn't seem to be any effect upon the health of the Dalai Lama. He looks so healthy and may live for another hundred years or so.

For me, the Dalai Lama is definitely doing something with this ban and it is definitely not to extend his life. To me, that's very obvious and I am not really trying to create some kind of controversy but the results of the ban is pretty plain to see - the strong practitioners have remained steadfast, some are secretly practicing while others are mobilizing for the time when the ban gets lifted to spread Dorje Shugden out into the world.

Surprisingly, there are Buddhists outside of Dharamsala that really believes that Dorje Shugden will harm the Dalai Lama. I personally find this phenomena astounding in many ways because these people are educated Buddhists who could have done better research and who could have used their logic to discern what is right or wrong or actually study everything with an unbiased mind and come up with their own conclusions. Until now, there are many of these Buddhists trying to show the world how bad Dorje Shugden is by parroting the Dalai Lama's words or making up crazy stories of their own. There's always something interesting....

[Gabby Potter]

The answer is so obvious, of course not! How would an enlightened Buddha harm someone? Have you ever seen Tsongkhapa or Kuanyin hurting someone? Buddhas do not hurt people, what do they get from it anyway? And if someone were to ask, how do you know if Dorje Shugden is an enlightened Buddha?. Please go home, do some research on this website, and study His story well, if Dorje Shugden were a ''demon'' or ''spirit'' which He's not even in that category, why didn't HH do some rituals so ''expel'' Him? HH definitely has the ability do so if He really is a spirit. Think about it please.

[jamyang_sonam]

The Tibetans or the Pro-Dalai Lama supporters must use logic and senses to see clearly that Dorje Shugden Practice DOES NOT SHORTENS HIS HOLINESS LIFE, instead it seems to increase HHDL lifes, and looking healthy too. How could a manifestation of Chenrezig can easily be affected a "spirit", since Chenrezig is the Mother of compassion whose Boddhicitta towards the suffering of the sentient being who is still in the 6 realms of Samsara. The power of Boddhichitta could not be destroy even is Dorje Shugden is really a spirit, but instead, DS is not a spirit, but the manifestation of an enlighten mind and who is no other than the Wisdom Buddha Manjushri, who is also Lama Tsongkhapa, who is also Shakya Panditta, Mahasiddha Virupa, and Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen.

This is why Dorje Shugden is not a spirit, because He is an Enlighten Protector, who is only to help and protect the Dharma, in this case HHDL is protected and have a long life because HHDL is Chenrezig.