Dorje Shugden outside of Tibet

[DharmaDefender]

The following has just occurred to me, soz I can be a bit slow

Outside of the Tibetan population, actually peoples concept of what Dorje Shugden is is very limited. For most people he doesnt exist in their psyche meaning the only reason why he is important to us because we KNOW about it...for most people outside of Buddhism, theyve never even heard the name 'Dorje Shugden'.

So if you really think about it, its "only" within the Tibetan population that suppression and discrimination takes place on a daily basis. But at the rate the Tibetans are burning themselves over a lost cause, pretty soon therell be no Tibetans left and once they see Bhod Rangzen IS a lost cause, theyll assimilate into the local culture of wherever theyve settled and the Tibetan traditions will be lost forever.

So realistically speaking, the preservation of Dorje Shugdens lineage and teachings and practice is taking place OUTSIDE of the Tibetan population. If we work together to spread the message, theres nowt the CTA can do about it. They cant control us from where we are; were not subject to their rulings and the farce that they pass off as democracy. So why are we so focused on a small group of troublemakers, instead of focusing on making our lineage strong? Why arent we supporting our monasteries and our teachers and people from our lineage?

[honeydakini]

That's right. The movement IS taking place well outside the small confines of the 100,000+ Tibetan exile population, held together very shakily by a very thin thread. Once the Dalai Lama passes away (and we do hope this is not soon), another piece is shaved off that already thinning thread , or it snaps altogether.

I have never been of the opinion that we should preserve the lineage and make it grow by publicly critiquing people "on the other side", or launching arguments and debates against the naysayers (the Dalai Lama and non-shugden camp in this case). Like you've pointed out, you're spending an awful lot of time fighting against what is a very small number of people, when that same energy could be spent bringing the blessings, knowledge, education, information and most importantly benefit to the rest of the planet, which far far far outnumber that small Dalai Lama, anti-shugden camp!

Secondly, I just don't think it reflects or bodes well that we are trying to preserve and promote a practice that is based upon compassion and wisdom but our actions don't reflect the practice at all. By speaking badly or fighting back against the other camp,  we would show the world that this is what DS people do - they fight, they picket, they demonstrate, they put down the Dalai Lama or other Lamas who are still the sole spiritual guides and root Gurus of thousands of other people. Is this the image we want to project to the world of DS practitioners? For the sake of "righting a wrong" within this small, small insignificant community that you've just pointed out.

Weight the pros and the cons. Sure doesn't look worth it to me to "bet" so much of our time, energy, resources and practice for such a small win. We are definitely much better off forgetting the small petty people and focusing on what really matters - helping people, through Shugden's practice and the practices of our lineage. Isn't this what we are in dharma for? To help people??

[vajratruth]

Dorje Shugden's practice has spread so fast and so far because all around the world there are people who are able to discern from themselves what is right and what is wrong. Buddhism at its core are for thinking people and those who are able to analyze for themselves whether something they hear or say has any basis of truth.

For a long time, the people who impose then ban relied on real information not getting through to the world at large but sites and forum like this changed all that. Once reliable information backed up  by facts and documented evidence are made public, it is not difficult for the people of the world to see behind the silly lies that the CTSA have been telling.


Outside of Tibet, no one cares about the CTA and I suspect that a lot of people realize that the only people the CTA are fooling, are themselves. As an outsider looking at the CTA I cannot support any of what the CTA is doing and it is clear to me that they are more interested in making political gains that preserving the precious teachings of Je Tsongkhapa.

Even with the ban, Dorje Shugden's practice has grown tremendously in spite of efforts to kill it. The reality, as many have realized is that you cannot suppress the truth. How can you, when the very essence of Dorje Shugden's practice is Dharma as taught by Shakyamuni.

[Barzin]

Well said!  Yes for the people whether in Buddhism or not, they might not even hear the name Dorje Shugden and they couldn't care less about the ban.  Especially in the western it is all about logic and facts of Buddha's teachings, the knowledge on the mystical side of things are still shallow.  After all, we are all lay practitioners not some high lamas so who are we to judge and discuss?  Same goes with the CTA.  They have projected Tibetan culture and religion in a very bad way, I think it is time for them to do something about it.

The fact is that Tibetan Buddhism is spreading like rapid fire in other parts of the world.  Soon more will hear about the ban and the truth will be out.  If I were CTA, I would do something before more embarrassment occur.  Those holy monks and high lamas and DS practitioners who suffered in this very ban will not give up their practice.  CTA just have to accept that.  Because the fundamental practice of BUddhism is pure guru devotion.  So no matter what and how they say or do will not even make us stray even a little.  So time to wake up and smell the coffee!

[Tenzin Malgyur]

Even for Tibetans living out of Tibet and Tibetan camps, there is really nothing CTA can do about what they choose to believe and practice. I agree we should work hard now to spread the message and to support our teacher instead of focusing our time and effort on some small petty groups who are making some baseless claims. Sites and forums like this (dorjeshugden.com) provides information to everyone who have any doubts and soon enough more people will realize the truth because nobody can suppress the truth.

[dsiluvu]

So realistically speaking, the preservation of Dorje Shugdens lineage and teachings and practice is taking place OUTSIDE of the Tibetan population. If we work together to spread the message, theres nowt the CTA can do about it. They cant control us from where we are; were not subject to their rulings and the farce that they pass off as democracy. So why are we so focused on a small group of troublemakers, instead of focusing on making our lineage strong? Why arent we supporting our monasteries and our teachers and people from our lineage?

That is so true! And guess who spear headed this whole process and speed it up... His Holiness the Dalai Lama!!!

When you think more and more about it and looking at the future... I think HHDL made DS such a huge issue because perhaps He realised that Tibetans (at their state) are not the only ones who can preserve and continue the lineage. It would be better that more people does this so more would benefit from it. Just like the bad situation of the losing Tibet to China, because of that bad situation, so many more beings are benefited. It is a very skilful method and the more the world knows about Dharma/Dorje Shugden in this case, the more imprints is planted. At the end of the day, there is a bigger picture, there is more people not practising then those that practice and know. So the numbers that do not know/practice is larger. So based on the motivation to benefit all sentient being, Chenrezig does exactly so.

[Benny]

I couldn't agree more with all that is said here on this thread. We should all just continue with our protector practice and help spread the word of how this practice has help us in so many ways. Simple isnt it ? This whole controversy thing is beginning to be like some dry history lesson that everyone just wanna forget about and just move on or it is like that nasty lingering curry ordour that sticks to your fingers for days after you ate Indian food with your hand.

Everytime we hear of a report about the controversy it is all about , discrimination , hypocracy , lies , denial , accusations , suffering and everything negative. We should all just do the positive so that in time the positive just overcomes the negative. No matter how we analyse and discuss it is always the same old boring conclusion that this bunch of passé Tibetans are just being unjust to their own people. Unless we want to see them being brought to justice in the International Court of Justice for contravention of human rights , I say we should all just ignore them and continue to contribute in whatever way we can from wherever we are in the world to spread Dorje Shugden. The truth will always prevail.

[Tenzin K]

Lord Shugden practices is spreading fast out there!

Western country look at logic and the reasoning  of the ban by DL is so contradicting and no way to be accepted. The people outside Tibet may not know or able to feel the ban. What best here is they will learn the history, the benefits and spread it to all over the world.

Most of the practitioners which is not control by CTA will never even aware of CTA and they are happily practicing it. What is the reason to govern by CTA? The protector practice is growing and will grow further.

People will look at the benefits more than the reasoning of the ban. As more and more practitioners and more centre and monastery propitiate Lord Shugden eventually the ban will be lifted as how can the the majority of the world be wrong and only CTA right?

[Positive Change]

The following has just occurred to me, soz I can be a bit slow

Outside of the Tibetan population, actually peoples concept of what Dorje Shugden is is very limited. For most people he doesnt exist in their psyche meaning the only reason why he is important to us because we KNOW about it...for most people outside of Buddhism, theyve never even heard the name 'Dorje Shugden'.

So if you really think about it, its "only" within the Tibetan population that suppression and discrimination takes place on a daily basis. But at the rate the Tibetans are burning themselves over a lost cause, pretty soon therell be no Tibetans left and once they see Bhod Rangzen IS a lost cause, theyll assimilate into the local culture of wherever theyve settled and the Tibetan traditions will be lost forever.

So realistically speaking, the preservation of Dorje Shugdens lineage and teachings and practice is taking place OUTSIDE of the Tibetan population. If we work together to spread the message, theres nowt the CTA can do about it. They cant control us from where we are; were not subject to their rulings and the farce that they pass off as democracy. So why are we so focused on a small group of troublemakers, instead of focusing on making our lineage strong? Why arent we supporting our monasteries and our teachers and people from our lineage?

Precisely.... I liken CTA to trying to swat (I know it's not a very Buddhist analogy) crows with a fly swatter! CTA is all talk and full of hot air (no disrespect but the results of your action shows) trying to flex their muscle knowing full well their isn't any to begin with.

The CTA can say whatever they want but they are NOT an authority on who can and who can't practice Dorje Shugden outside of Tibet... hhmmm hang on a second, they are outside Tibet!!!!

So bottom line is, time to move on CTA and focus on more serious issues plaguing Tibetans like education, healthcare, equanimity and social divide. Surely what someone is propitiating has no place in politics let alone being used as a tool to further segregate an already split society!!!

[VS]

Very well said, Lord Shugden practitioners are spreading out side of Tibet all around the world like the wild fire, uncontrollable, thanks to the ban imposed by HH Dalai Lama. I doubt all this is possible if HH Dalai Lama neither escape from Tibet nor impose the ban.

The voice in support of the lifting of the ban is getting stronger and louder in the western and asian countries. More and more activities to promote Dorje Shugden practice are growing. Though this may not show immediate result, people's ears will tend to itch.

More and more learned people will want to find out more info and will learn about the truth behind this ban. Thanks to dorjeshugden.com team, there are tonnes of info waiting for these group who are hungry for info.

It is the matter of time before this ban is lifted and all Dorje Shugden practitioners will be able practice in peace.

[michaela]

The following has just occurred to me, soz I can be a bit slow

So if you really think about it, its "only" within the Tibetan population that suppression and discrimination takes place on a daily basis. But at the rate the Tibetans are burning themselves over a lost cause, pretty soon therell be no Tibetans left and once they see Bhod Rangzen IS a lost cause, theyll assimilate into the local culture of wherever theyve settled and the Tibetan traditions will be lost forever.

So realistically speaking, the preservation of Dorje Shugdens lineage and teachings and practice is taking place OUTSIDE of the Tibetan population. If we work together to spread the message, theres nowt the CTA can do about it. They cant control us from where we are; were not subject to their rulings and the farce that they pass off as democracy. So why are we so focused on a small group of troublemakers, instead of focusing on making our lineage strong? Why arent we supporting our monasteries and our teachers and people from our lineage?

Dear DharmaDefender

While I agree with you that the suppression by CTA mostly only affect people of the Tibetan Community, I believe the problem with the ban is much greater than just ignoring CTA.  The ban is instituted by Dalai Lama - the spiritual leader of Tibetan Buddhism and a teacher of many disciples including many high lamas.  Some lamas, monks, Tibetan Buddhists have multiple gurus that may be for and/ or against the ban.  In the Guru-disciple relationship once you have taken refuge vows with a guru, the bond between the guru and disciple are very sacred.  When one guru is for the ban and the other guru is against the ban, it can cause great confusions and heartache amongst the disciples.  Thus, the issue at hand is much greater than just an exile government harrasing its people. 

Due to the above circumstance, I pray that the ban will be lifted soon.

[Galen]

So realistically speaking, the preservation of Dorje Shugdens lineage and teachings and practice is taking place OUTSIDE of the Tibetan population. If we work together to spread the message, theres nowt the CTA can do about it. They cant control us from where we are; were not subject to their rulings and the farce that they pass off as democracy. So why are we so focused on a small group of troublemakers, instead of focusing on making our lineage strong? Why arent we supporting our monasteries and our teachers and people from our lineage?

That is so true! And guess who spear headed this whole process and speed it up... His Holiness the Dalai Lama!!!

When you think more and more about it and looking at the future... I think HHDL made DS such a huge issue because perhaps He realised that Tibetans (at their state) are not the only ones who can preserve and continue the lineage. It would be better that more people does this so more would benefit from it. Just like the bad situation of the losing Tibet to China, because of that bad situation, so many more beings are benefited. It is a very skilful method and the more the world knows about Dharma/Dorje Shugden in this case, the more imprints is planted. At the end of the day, there is a bigger picture, there is more people not practising then those that practice and know. So the numbers that do not know/practice is larger. So based on the motivation to benefit all sentient being, Chenrezig does exactly so.

I do agree with dsiluvu as there is a bigger picture. The Dalai Lama may have seen that the Dorje Shugden practice is dwindling in Tibet because of there are lesser and lesser Tibetans and are replaced by Chinese in their assimilation programmes. In order to preserve this lineage, a controversy is created so that more people are aware of this practice and more people can help spread this practice. It definitely helps when the Dalai Lama declared that this practice actually harms him and was taken up by the Chinese government who now promotes heavily in China simply because the Dalai Lama is the most hated enemy in the Chinese government to create uproar and destablize the country.

With so many monks and lamas leaving Tibet and settling in the other countries such as Europe, America and Asia, what better opportunity to spread in those areas to spread the practice. After all it is implanting seeds into the mindstream.

When the ban is lifted, then the whole world can combine to spread Dorje Shugden together!!

[WisdomBeing]

It is true. I live outside Tibet in a country where I am fortunate enough by law that I can practice any religion I damn well please. BUT I still get slammed on occasion by holier-than-thou Buddhists IN ENGLAND, mind you, that I am doing an evil practice because His Holiness the Dalai Lama has banned it. Of course, more often than not, I do not suffer anything more than a nasty look, compared to the oppression suffered by the Tibetans in the refugee camps, but it does affect me.

I just use it as my practice to ignore these comments and looks and shrug it off but I can imagine that others may be more affected and may even abandon their practice if there is sufficient peer pressure. Even though the law permits us to practise freely here, pressure from social mores may be just as oppressive. So I do agree with Michaela to that extent. Let’s hope the Dalai Lama changes his tune soon.

[Ensapa]

Dorje Shugden is around the world, whether or not the CTA and their lackeys wants to admit or not. NKT is huge and they are around the world and they do pray to Dorje Shugden. China is huge and there are several provinces in there that pray to Dorje Shugden (everyone in the province, that is) and there is Nepal, Italy, Switzerland etc that also have Dorje Shugden. So the ban is actually just contained in Dharamsala and maybe a few only religious nuts follow the ban. It's not as bad as it seems.

[DharmaDefender]

Weight the pros and the cons. Sure doesn't look worth it to me to "bet" so much of our time, energy, resources and practice for such a small win. We are definitely much better off forgetting the small petty people and focusing on what really matters - helping people, through Shugden's practice and the practices of our lineage. Isn't this what we are in dharma for? To help people??

This topic came up in my mind again today because i was thinking about the arguments Ive been positing on the DS Facebook. And well here actually. Mainly that I am glad not to be Tibetan and to be so caught up over small petty things, and that we shouldnt get to hung up over being British, Tibetan, whatever in this life because we might not even come back as a human in our next life.

I agree that Dharma is what really matters, especially at teh time of death. But then what would you say to the people who argue protesting against human rights abuses is their practice? That thats how thye express their spirituality?