Interesting feedback on western Dorje Shugden practitioners

[Ensapa]

I was reading through the blog of a Tibetan girl who stays in Dharamsala (and who blogs about things that sets her off) and I was quite surprised to find this post. It is filled with spelling mistakes tho, but she has a point.

#Tibetan shugden practitioners and western shugden followers belong in two entirely different categories.

Do Tibetan shugden practitioners face stigmatization in Tibetan communities? Hell Yes.
Are there misunderstandings between Tibetan sugden followers and non-followers? Fuck Yes.
Are there antagonistic behaviors on both sides? You better believe it.
Are (often times) white sugden followers the saviors of Tibetan sugden practitioners? NOPE. That’s what they CLAIM!

They claim to be following the Buddha Darma by antagonizing and victimizing an already oppressed group of people, the Tibetans. Further, they claim to put themselves on the same level as Tibetan sugden practitioners. Excuse me, but have you been practicing sugden for centuries in your family history tied in with village practice in Tibet? Um…the answer is NO! Also, you privileged yuppies do NOT live in Exile Tibetan community. So please stop putting yourselves on the same platform as Tibetan sugden practitioners in exile. You guys are NOT the same. You are still a bunch of white yuppies victimizing not only non sugden followers but also riding on the backs of Tibetan sugden followers.

Your idea of practicing the Buddha Darma is the constant joy you get in justifying the ongoing Colonization of Tibet and adding to the collective (practicing and non practicing sugden followers) sufferings of the Tibetan people. We don’t need your “white mans (sick) burden, white man know better” bullocks.

She is angry that certain Dorje Shugden practitioners who are not Tibetan think that they know everything about Dorje Shugden and act in certain ways that end up damaging both sides of the Tibetan community....

Sadly, in some ways, as rude as she may sound, it is true as some people in this forum have displayed. Perhaps it is feedback that we can use constructively to support our brothers and sisters in Dharamsala more efficiently?

[JD]

Around Dharamsala and also across the rest of the diaspora too... For non-Tibetan Asian practitioners as well as Western practitioners, we can all think about this. It is possible for everyone to be sensitive/aware of the social impact on the most affected communities/ordained groups and temper their thoughts and words. May the truth prevail, may all practice freely between groups and may harmony abound across all differences.

[dondrup]

They claim to be following the Buddha Darma by antagonizing and victimizing an already oppressed group of people, the Tibetans. Further, they claim to put themselves on the same level as Tibetan sugden practitioners. Excuse me, but have you been practicing sugden for centuries in your family history tied in with village practice in Tibet? Um…the answer is NO! Also, you privileged yuppies do NOT live in Exile Tibetan community. So please stop putting yourselves on the same platform as Tibetan sugden practitioners in exile. You guys are NOT the same. You are still a bunch of white yuppies victimizing not only non sugden followers but also riding on the backs of Tibetan sugden followers.

Your idea of practicing the Buddha Darma is the constant joy you get in justifying the ongoing Colonization of Tibet and adding to the collective (practicing and non practicing sugden followers) sufferings of the Tibetan people. We don’t need your “white mans (sick) burden, white man know better” bullocks.

Unless we are in the shoes of the Tibetan Shugden practitioners like the Tibetan girl, we will not realize the actual sufferings that they are going through since the ban on Dorje Shugden was imposed.  The Western Shugden practitioners concerned should be sensitive to the Tibetan Shugden practitioners.  They should not antagonize or offend others.  It is simply not Buddhist to behave that way.  Love your fellow Dorje Shugden practitioners; don’t sink the same boat you are in!

[Ensapa]

Unless we are in the shoes of the Tibetan Shugden practitioners like the Tibetan girl, we will not realize the actual sufferings that they are going through since the ban on Dorje Shugden was imposed.  The Western Shugden practitioners concerned should be sensitive to the Tibetan Shugden practitioners.  They should not antagonize or offend others.  It is simply not Buddhist to behave that way.  Love your fellow Dorje Shugden practitioners; don’t sink the same boat you are in!

In my opinion, there is a very wide gap and distance between the western and tibetan Dorje Shugden practitioners. Asians are in general more reserved and they will not be the one to oppose or form their own opinion and be respectful towards other cultures and tolerate them. Take Jamseng Rinpoche's students for example, they do not draw attention to themselves with the Dorje Shugden issue at all.

In bulldozing their beliefs into the CTA, they give a very bad name to the tibetan practitioners and also hurt their feelings as the Tibetan practitioners are not and will never be against HHDL. And of course, this causes the tibetan ones to suffer more as it proves everyone's negative perception about them right again. So the discrimination is intensified and they get more ostracized than before.

It would be better to take care of the practitioners rather than to use them in a way to get media attention because they happen to be Tibetan and Dorje Shugden practitioners. That action hurts the community a lot and causes a huge rift between the tibetan and western practitioners. This is what the tibetan blogger is angry about because in a way it is merely exploitation.

Last but not least, DS practice is fairly new outside of Tibet while it is very established in Tibet and to ask people to give up something that has been practiced for hundreds of years or face repercussions is somewhat cruel to a degree and when non tibetan practitioners complain and make it a huge issue, it is rubbing it in the faces of the Tibetans and that is not a very nice thing to do..

anyway, those are just my observations.

[thor]

I am not surprised that the Tibetan girl reacted that way. Coming from different sides of the globe, from two different cultures and histories, it is only natural that Tibetan and Western Shugden practitioners do not see eye to eye on the methods they use to overcome the problem of this ban.

The Tibetans have real life experience of what it is like to be on the hate list of others, with real danger of bodily harm from the anti-shugden side. Whereas in the West, it is all about freedom of speech and religion, and the right of protest.

I know for a fact that some of the Western Shugden Society are operating under instructions from Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, to hold protests, mini riots, all in the name of upholding Dorje Shugden's practice. I do not agree with this method, but if they are doing all this for guru devotion, how can I fault them? I am sure Geshe-la has his reasons for doing so, and I know for a fact that it is his instructions because his students have sent an invitation to participate in such protests.

I can only dream of the day when the ban is abolished and Shugden and non shugden practitioners alike can exist in harmony and peace again, without fear...

[WisdomBeing]

Ouch. That hurt because I guess I am one of the nouveau Shugden practitioners who that Tibetan girl mentioned. I’m comfortable here in my lovely little flat with my little altar to Dorje Shugden. There is no history of Shugden practice in my family and I can practise freely here where nobody gives a flying toss what I’m praying to. I can go out to Hyde Park tomorrow morning and scream “I love Dorje Shugden” and nobody will blink. But I do know that the Tibetans in their refugee camps or even their communities in foreign countries like US do not have my freedom to practise. Saying that, I hope that Tibetans do not tar all “white yuppy” Shugden practitioners with the same brush. If the Tibetans are not happy with the protests in the west – the purpose was to benefit Tibetans by raising awareness of the ban. It did NOT benefit any Westerners because we ARE free to practise. As Thor said, the Western protests were orchestrated/instructed by a Tibetan teacher – Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, and I am sure the intention was sincerely to pressure the Tibetan Government in Exile and HH the Dalai Lama to lift the ban on Dorje Shugden practice. Whether Tibetans believe this or not, western Shugden practitioners are not your enemy.

We are all Shugden practitioners – whether Tibetan or Western or Tibetans in the West. Does it really matter if my parents practised or not? We should be in harmony together always – isn’t that what Buddhism is about?

[Benny]

Happy Wesak 2012 , to all ! May the light of the Buddha Dharma spread in ten directions , illuminating the ignorance of all beings !

Common everybody let's just agree to disagree for once. I totally agree with Wisdom Being , that we western DS practitioners have total freedom to practice unlike our unfortunate tibetans brothers and sisters. So who do you think we are doing what we are doing for ?

Can't you guys see that this IS precisely the cause of the entire suffering . That the poor victims feel sorry about themselves and can't do anything about it and the bullies think that they are the just ! Look ! Buddha's teachings never taught us to cause suffering onto others and and those victims to STAY victims .

Wake up ! DS practitioner or NOT we are all Buddhist ! Stop to think why we are suffering OR causing suffering ? Neither the Buddha OR even HHDL wants us to behave this way , IF both sides JUST let go ...,the whole saga will cease to exist ! Tibetans DS practitioners please know this..... , no one can take away your faith in DORJE SHUGDEN ! And for non DS practioner s , your gurus never wanted you to PERSECUTE your own Dharma brothers or sisters OR any beings for that matter.

I sincerely wish AND pray that on this auspicious day , when ENLIGHTENMENT is made achievable by all beings , that we SEE through this darkness together as ONE ! HAPPY WESAK ?

[Ensapa]

I am not surprised that the Tibetan girl reacted that way. Coming from different sides of the globe, from two different cultures and histories, it is only natural that Tibetan and Western Shugden practitioners do not see eye to eye on the methods they use to overcome the problem of this ban.

The Tibetans have real life experience of what it is like to be on the hate list of others, with real danger of bodily harm from the anti-shugden side. Whereas in the West, it is all about freedom of speech and religion, and the right of protest.

I know for a fact that some of the Western Shugden Society are operating under instructions from Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, to hold protests, mini riots, all in the name of upholding Dorje Shugden's practice. I do not agree with this method, but if they are doing all this for guru devotion, how can I fault them? I am sure Geshe-la has his reasons for doing so, and I know for a fact that it is his instructions because his students have sent an invitation to participate in such protests.

I can only dream of the day when the ban is abolished and Shugden and non shugden practitioners alike can exist in harmony and peace again, without fear...

In a way, it might have been very uncomfortable for the tibetan exiled practitioners to see that their issue is being magnified and intensified, but what I feel irks them is that most of these tibetan practitioners are still a strong supporter of HHDL and the protest against HHDL does irk them in more ways than one because it does not represent their wishes. They felt sidelined as their wishes was not respected.

GKG has a plan with the protest, and it is to raise awareness of the ban on a bigger and larger scale than before. the CTA has a very bad habit of keeping everything and everyone in the dark and there is very little transparency in their government since the beginning. In lieu of that, the protests force CTA and the tibetan community in exile to acknowledge this fact and face it.

The protest worked in many ways but unfortunately at the cost of both the tibetan and western Dorje Shugden practitioners who are now viewed as violent and anti Dalai Lama (which some people see it as a bad thing) but it did raise the awareness which will provoke people to research, read and learn up on Dorje Shugden and the real nature of the ban in the long run.

Right now, what is important for both chapters of practitioners is unity and to show the results of our practice by being harmonious and more spiritually advanced than those who follow the ban to its extremes because with Dorje Shugden by our side and our material and spiritual needs being met, we should be able to progress in our individual Dharma practice faster than those who are too busy being the Dharma police.

[Big Uncle]

That's right! Foreigners are always so self-righteous about their beliefs and they don't even realize the cultural and social difference between their own liberal societies that allows for loud protests. Tibetan society is very different. To some, it is archaic and backwards but to the Tibetans, it is all about authority, it is respect for the Sangha and High Lamas.

The ban has had a huge impact on Tibetan society, thus polarising society between practitioners and non-practitioners. The segregation has huge impact for many families and sometimes tearing them apart and splitting close childhood friends. This is not to mention the terrible expulsions going on in the monasteries and the splitting of centuries old monastic institutions. And the monks cannot say anything and very few dare to protest against their senior monks. Nobody dares to do anything as there's dire social and spiritual consequences.

[Galen]

The Tibetan girl is absolutely right about foreigners who does not understand what Tibetans are going through with this Dorje Shugden ban because it was not practiced by us foreigners for generations. It must be really heartbreaking to wake up one morning to learn that what you have practiced is not allowed anymore and that you are discriminated against in your own community.

We foreigners may be new in this practice but we are sincere and now how beneficial this practice is for us and many. Dorje Shugden is the protector of this degenerating age and what we are doing is not to hurt the Tibetan community even more, but to try to fight for justice and alleviate the sorrows and grief in the Tibetan community.

It also does not help when the CTA are politicising the situation and deviate attention of the people. As much as we are to blame for sticking our nose into this situation, we did it not because we wanted to be the savior of the day but a support for the Tibetans.

[kris]

We are live in different parts of the world, and we all have different cultures. Also, Dorje Shugden practitioners in Tibet or India who suffer so much because of the ban are having totally different experience with practitioners else where.

Can you imagine you are denied basic necessities like food, schools, hospital, etc because you practice Dorje Shugden? The hardship will not be something we can imagine.

As such, PEACE is the key here. We should unite and work towards the ban to be lifted. We should not fight within ourselves.

Also, whatever they suffer, such as the discrimination in the monasteries, etc, we should inform the rest of the world because we are more well verse with internet and social media.

[Ensapa]

What I would really love to see and for all of us to work on is more synergy between the western and tibetan practitioners, that they assimilate each other's views and be more understanding with whats going on around. If we both practice the same lineage and protector it would make a lot more sense to have a common goal and a common ground rather than differing views.

Why not that we support each other and we find out more about what the tibetan practitioners are thinking and feeling, and then take those into account before we mount smear campaigns against HHDL? (Very effective, but as ive said, it also hurts the tibetan practitioners deeply as they also revere HHDL) but i guess what needs to happen, happens and no one can be blamed.

If its only one group of Dorje Shugden practitioners practicing and the other is not or showing different views, it just proves to the non DS practitioners that DS is bad and sectarian: they would say that it is proof that DS is sectarian because his supports are split into 2 different groups...so it proves their point in more ways than one. If we can fill up that gap, we can prove them wrong and give them one less reason to attack us.

At the end of the day, it is results that will change people. It would be the results from our protector practice that people will base their decision on if Dorje Shugden is good or bad. Words and delusions can only last for a short while before results blow them off. Then the ban will have to be lifted as empty words cannot hide something for long. That, I feel, helps to lift the ban faster.

[dsdisciple]

Hmmm great post to get people thinking...I have to say that by the sounds of everyone's post your not from the west???

Having said that...is that not a subtle form of discrimination??? in an indirect sort of way that practitioners from the west are self right-self wrong...culturally insensitive??? low level practitioners???

Actually its funny that the west gets a big rep for the world's problems and inconveniently forgotten for positive benefits given in return. I am not saying that all actions from the west have been good there's been some blunders for sure but everyone has skeletons in the closet..irregardless of where you are from.

Look a bit deeper and you will find a few exceptional characters(from the West) in the early 19th and 20th century that did some exceptional things preserving Tibetan Culture and precious Teachings from Monasteries pre-post Tibet 1959.

Western practitioners that learnt Tibetan Culture, learnt Classical Tibetan, modern Tibetan, Sanskrit, were the first translators for HHDL and other Lama's coming to the west as well as translating the entire Pali cannon (Buddha's Words) into English.

Do a little research and you will find some interesting stories...to change your perspective or at the very least be a little more respectful of the translation work that you may have read and derived some benefit from already.

You didn't need to learn a new language or culture? to learn the basics didn't have to travel to Tibet many times to secure the wooden templates, print, digitize, create libraries and special places to preserve this knowledge before it was lost. Funny just now I had thought that their stories are no different to Marpa the translator of old but for us in modern times. Apart from the Monks who walked out of Tibet with these precious teachings or were the living libraries of these teachings (Trijang Rinpoche and taught others). One such translator Maurice Walshe was the catalyst to preserve and in some cases monks gifted him these wooden blocks to translate and preserve before they were lost. Another example on this website Glenn Mullin in Mongolia.

No disrepect to Miss Tibet (or western yuppies) practicing just for yourself is not what Buddha or DS wants from us in my humble opinion and definitely doesn't compare to living lineage masters that are living embodiments of the teachings and their Lineages.

My question? Why do you have to have generations of family practicing DS to be a real practitioner? Doesn't make sense to me, having known Buddhist practitioners 3rd generation but with zero dharma knowledge and these exceptional people with zero family history doing much, much, more to preserve Dharma for everyone.

It is so easy for western people to read translation of the various sutras etc at our fingertips online downloaded at our leisure...So yes I count myself very lucky, HHDL was asked a question why he taught predominantly in Tibetan to Tibetans from a western student at a teaching he was giving in Tibetan at that time and I think his comment was that their was not nearly the same availability of teachings for Tibetans to access and understand like we do in the West.

PS I am not a yuppie do gooder wanting to save everyone! I am a below the radar practitioner I love the dharma and teachings I have received because they work for me and what little benefit I have gotten in my practice I want more results...

xo

[Ensapa]

Nice post, Dsdisciple,

I believe that her point was not that western practitioners cannot practice Dorje Shugden, or if it means that the westerners are inferior, but at the way they reacted towards HHDL after the ban was implemented was very insensitive towards Tibetan sentiments and caused more harm than good to their community. The sad part is, the same thing can also be observed here in this forum.

If we can erase the seam that comes between us Dorje Shugden practitioners, between the ones at HHDL's camp and the ones that are not at that camp, I believe we can all generate the force and pressure for HHDL to lift the ban as there are more and more people needing Dorje Shugden as the degenerate age closes in. They need a support and guide powerful enough to pull them out of their own delusions.

Even in this forum alone, there is a very clear example of how the pro HHDL posters get questioned and interrogated by those who are against HHDL in this matter in sometimes very rude ways, ways that show that they only want to prove the pro HHDL-ers wrong, or refuse to see the subtle meaning of the text and only taking in the text verbose and out of context just to prove a point.

If the CTA or HHDL reads those posts, they will be laughing really hard because it only proves their theories right that Dorje Shugden is a divisive protector. Both sides of the coin are actually still the same as we all practice the same Dharma protector and such division is not necessary. Lets just tolerate the fact that some of us feel that HHDL does have a greater purpose and some of us think HHDL is wrong but not rub it into each other's faces or argue in the threads...serves no purpose...

[Klein]

I'm not exactly sure what the white "yuppy" practitioners did to make situations worse for Tibetans. Let's put it this way, all Dorje Shugden practitioners are doing their best to lift the ban of the practice. The effects backfiring are not planned for.

Geshe la's students are only following his instructions. So I hope the Tibetan girl realises this. In a nutshell, my teacher always say that there's no one to blame, for the situations we're in or when we're treated in ways we do not like. This is all happening due to our own karma. As Buddhist practitioners we accept our karma and let go. No point blaming others.

Instead, we should focus on our practice and transform our mind.