The Ban - Positive outweighs negative?

[tsangpakarpo]

If you are a true Dorje Shugden practitioner or rather if you're a person who can see the larger picture you would know that the Dalai Lama enforced the ban on Dorje Shugden's practice for a reason we might not be able to understand at this moment. Some has said it is to spread the practice of Dorje Shugden, especially in China, the catalyst of growth in this era.

Or is there reason as stated, Dorje Shugden harms the life of the Dalai Lama?

The ban has been going on for quite some time now. Many people have suffered because of it. Some even sacrificed their lives to protect the practice. Many have gained negative karma by criticizing the practice as well as ill treating the practitioners. That's of course if you believe Dorje Shugden is a Buddha. I am personally a believer, obviously. Can you imagine the amount of negative karma these people obtained by destroying statues, thangkhas, pictures and other Dorje Shugden related holy items? I do not want to imagine where they'll end up in their future lives.

So you see, many people are affected because of this ban. My question is, is the ban really necessary to spread the growth of Dorje Shugden? Couldn't the Dalai Lama come out with another game plan which will cause less casualties, less anger and less pain?

(Note: I am not questioning the Dalai Lama and the ban but would love to know everyone's thoughts on this)

[dslucky]

Yes the ban is necessary!!

Points to be considered..

- As you mentioned, China is the catalyst of growth..In this case, the Chinese dislike Dalai Lama. Therefore, they will adopt the practice knowing that DS causes harm to DL as said by DL himself. When the Chinese adopts the practice it will then grow like wild fire spreading to the entire world simply because they are the center of attention right now.

- When the ban is lifted, DS will be a star! A star in the sense that before the ban, only the Gelugs practice and know about DS but as the ban is on-going now, we clearly know that DS is a worldwide Buddha. Many people around the world got to know about DS because of the ban. Through the press, advocators, websites, etc.

- Education: So much information about DS has surfaced since the establishment of the ban. Take this website and forum for example. Would there be this space for us to learn and communicate if the ban was never there?

- The people who are suffering now because of the ban will suffer with regardless to the ban, in my opinion. When karma strikes, we can't avoid even if we're hiding in a 'secure' place. It's just one way or another.

- There were some doubts on DS since He became a Protector. Perhaps the Dalai Lama saw this hence wanting to put a stop to it. For this to happen, the DL skillfully created this ban and will later on lift the ban to proof that DS is in actuality a Buddha. No matter the hardship and criticism, at the end of the day, a Buddha is a Buddha since no one can prove that He is an evil spirit. Especially with so many facts to support that DS is a Buddha. Perhaps this is the best way the DL knows will prove the effectiveness of DS practice.

[dondrup]

I am a believer of the larger picture hypothesis that the ban on Dorje Shugden serves a higher purpose.  For the majority of us in the present World, we lack the wisdom to comprehend why the ban is the only option available to spread Dorje Shugden.  Only HH Dalai Lama who is Chenrezig, who is omniscient, will come out with such a plan that will ultimately make Dorje Shugden the mainstream practice because Dorje Shugden is the protector practice of this era and because sentient beings of this era needs Dorje Shugden.

There had been many casualties, sufferings and other negative consequences that had arisen due to this ban.  If we understand the law of Cause and Effect, we can accept that these are naturally part of samsara and the karma of each sentient being affected by the ban on Dorje Shugden.

Dorjeshugden.com has provided a lot of information on the bigger picture hypothesis.  They are presented clearly and logically for us to come to a conclusion on the ban. The day will come when the truth prevails.  May the ban be lifted soon.

[vajratruth]

Let us look at some of the positive effects of the Dorje Shugden ban imposed by HH the 14th Dalai Lama:


1. Because of the ban, the Government of the most populous country in the world promotes the Shugden practice. I am certain that many more people have come to know and practice Dorje Shugden compared to those who have suffered because of it;

2. The ban has effectively separated the wheat from the chaff i.e. those who refuse to give up their practice due to an oath made to their Guru and those who have no problems revoking promises. Those who chose DS practice over other factors have strengthened in their resolve to practice;

3. It has caused High Lamas and Teachers who wish to continue their Shugden practice to move to other parts of the world where the ban cannot be effected thus spreading the dharma further into the world;

4. It has provided Dorje Shugden with the best advertising and created high impact awareness;

Can you think of other ways the ban has benefitted the practice?

[hope rainbow]

The ban is troubling indeed. Why does the Dalai Lama, the world emissary of peace, harmony and tolerance instigates such a ban on his own people, against his own teachers? Why?

This is what I think:
While dealing with samsara, we most often must choose between two evils, simply because it is samsara.
Just as when the Buddha, in the Jataka tales, resolved to the killing of a sea captain so as to save lives and save the sea captain from heavy negative karmic actions.
With higher vows, such as the peerless Bodhicitta vows, benefiting others may take several shapes that may be mis-understood by some.

The bodhicitta vows reflect a mode of thought and action specific to a Budddha.
When a Buddha act, it is ALWAYS for the benefit of others and with clairvoyance.

Does the Dalai Lama's mind have the qualities of a Buddha's mind?
Hard for me to say, who am I to qualify the Dalai Lama?
But with inferential logic, I can conclude that it is likely.
If the Dalai Lama is a Buddha, then he has clairvoyance, he has wisdom, he has compassion, pure, complete wise compassion, therefore he has the skills to do what is most beneficial.

His direct students that follow his instructions of not practicing Dorje Shugden do create merit on that ground, on the ground of following one's root Guru's instructions. How otherwise?
Those that go overboard however may have different results...

Long term, we will benefit, and I say this even without having to understand the why, how etc....
I say it with the faith that His Holiness is Chenrezig, if only because my own root Guru says so.

[Positive Change]

In samsara exist the positive with the negative... most times co existing together within the same choice. The ban being one of them. The many choices in our lives are laden with such "predicaments". It is how we balance the two with the correct motivation which wins out in the end.

With regards to ban, at the onset of the ban, we can clearly see how far and wide the practice is spreading... Yes there are "negative" aspects to the ban too but when the positive aspects of the goals are realized the negativity associated with it WILL melt away. Suffering is prevalent around us less we forget we are in samsara... but does it mean we forget or neglect the suffering, no! But remind ourselves it is a necessary "evil" in order for there to be a strong enough statement to be made.

What is the point of a "cause" no one hears of or is aware of? The HYPE and with proper strategies are required and for me personally this is precisely what the Ban is... The Ban in itself is neither good nor bad.. the eventual results that fruition will be good and hence we need not dwell on the temporal!

[negra orquida]

I learnt a new term recently and the first thing that came to my mind was the Dalai Lama and the ban.  The term is "Disruption Marketing" -  inventing new methods to disrupt the normal way an industry conducts business. It’s about creating compelling customer engagement, and stronger customer relationships (from http://www.shimonsandler.com/disruption-marketing/).  In short, using a business model which causes maximum disruption to an existing market, to make your product widely known and used in the shortest time possible.

Like what Hope Rainbow said, because we are in samsara, there is very rarely a 100% positive or definite black and white or sure win-win situation, more so when it concerns millions and millions of people!

It takes a highly attained being to dare start and maintain the kind of marketing campaign the Dalai Lama is on.  I do not believe that the emanation of Chenrezig would do something which would be detrimental to anyone in the long term view.  How many people can withstand the criticism that has been thrown at the Dalai Lama?  Why would he put his head out like this?  I can't think of any other way which would have resulted Buddhism and Dorje Shugden becoming so wide spread as it is today, only someone like the Dalai Lama could think of this idea which caused maximum disruption in the (Buddhist) world.

[vajrastorm]

I agree with the above posts that the positive effects outweigh the negative. We see the positive effects in the spread of awareness of Dorje Shugden and the promotion of Shugden practice in places like populous China and other countries where high Lamas who are Shugden practitioners have gone(to avoid taking the oath not to practice Shugden) to spread the Dharma and Shugden practice.

Best of all, the ban has resulted in the creation of this website which steadfastly promotes Shugden globally in a peaceful, constructive and non-partisan way, providing a wealth of necessary and authentic information about Shugden and the Dharma.We need to support it by engaging actively in this forum and  website, after we educate ourselves from the knowledge and information provided in this website.It is heartening to see the many Dorje Shugden monasteries and centers that have grown up in many places,as well as read about all the gigantic efforts to spread Shugden though distribution of brochures, comics, Shugden pendants, statues and other images. All these make us want to go all out and support this great Cause to facilitate the swift removal of the Ban. Knowing that the suffering of many Lamas and monks  ( resulting from the Ban) will stop and the practice of Dorje Shugden will spread unstoppably and like wild-fire the moment the ban is lifted, makes it imperative to create the causes for the SWIFT lifting of the Ban.

[vajralight]

Quote:"If you are a true Dorje Shugden practitioner or rather if you're a person who can see the larger picture you would know that the Dalai Lama enforced the ban on Dorje Shugden's practice for a reason we might not be able to understand at this moment. Some has said it is to spread the practice of Dorje Shugden, especially in China, the catalyst of growth in this era. "


Thanks for letting me (and thousand of other Dorje Shugden practitioners) know that we are not true Dorje Shugden practitioners or people who cannot see the larger picture.




Vajra

[Ensapa]

Quote:"If you are a true Dorje Shugden practitioner or rather if you're a person who can see the larger picture you would know that the Dalai Lama enforced the ban on Dorje Shugden's practice for a reason we might not be able to understand at this moment. Some has said it is to spread the practice of Dorje Shugden, especially in China, the catalyst of growth in this era. "


Thanks for letting me (and thousand of other Dorje Shugden practitioners) know that we are not true Dorje Shugden practitioners or people who cannot see the larger picture.




Vajra

No offense, but, Dorje Shudgen practitioners are now divided into 2 groups: the anti HHDL practitioner and the pro HHDL practitioner. There are differences between these 2 groups as I have highlighted in a thread that I have started, based on my observations and also the reaction of a Tibetan refugee to this matter: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1937.0 and how it actually does not help with lifting the ban.

The difference between the groups is this: one group does not believe in the oracle or that HHDL is doing this for a higher purpose, while the other group does consult the oracle and does believe that HHDL is doing this for a higher purpose. The reason for this is very, very simple: 1) the higher purpose prophecy has been predicted by Trijang Rinpoche himself and 2) DS has very clearly proclaimed that his followers should support HHDL despite the ban through the oracle.

At this point its not really about whether or not that there is belief on whether or not the oracle is true or real, but its rather of tolerating fellow practitioners and to not say things that tick off the other side of the party. It is important for us practitioners to show a united front and work on the rough edges rather than to continue to push beliefs down each other's throats.

As bad as the ban may seem, if Trijang Rinpoche had predicted it, he would be sure that it would be a temporary one rather than a permanent one. Why would Trijang Rinpoche be wrong? he isnt nechung, who keeps telling the tibetans that they will get tibet back soon (every single year) but it never happens. This is Trijang Rinpoche we're talking about. He cant be wrong, if he is, we should forget about being Gelug (like what the insecure students of the other lineages would like us to believe...)

[Lineageholder]

1) the higher purpose prophecy has bee n predicted by Trijang Rinpoche himself and 2) DS has very clearly proclaimed that his followers should support HHDL despite the ban through the oracle.

Dear Ensapa,

How curious!  I'm really not aware of this at all.  Could you kindly give information about exactly what Trijang Rinpoche said, when and where, and which oracle said we should support the Dalai Lama and exactly what he said?

Thanks 

[tsangpakarpo]

Quote:"If you are a true Dorje Shugden practitioner or rather if you're a person who can see the larger picture you would know that the Dalai Lama enforced the ban on Dorje Shugden's practice for a reason we might not be able to understand at this moment. Some has said it is to spread the practice of Dorje Shugden, especially in China, the catalyst of growth in this era. "


Thanks for letting me (and thousand of other Dorje Shugden practitioners) know that we are not true Dorje Shugden practitioners or people who cannot see the larger picture.


Vajra

That sentence wasn't meant to offend anyone or directed to anyone. Whether or not you are a true practitioner, you know best. Anyways, if you are a true practitioner, then why feel offended?

I wrote that based on logic. There are so many facts out there to prove that there is no way Dorje Shugden harms His Holiness's live.

Here are some links to articles to prove my point:

http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=12769

http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=295

Have a read and have a nice day!

[pgdharma]

Without the ban, we will not have this website for us to learn and communicate on the forum. This website provides so much information and is the best advertisement space for Dorje Shugden. Thank you to the devoted team behind this website.

Without the ban, Dorje Shugden will not be so well known. Since the ban, this practice is growing all over the world as high lamas moved and lived in other parts of the world to continue this practice.

As mentioned by tsangpakarpo, China is the catalyst of growth. China will do anything to spite HHDL. So when China adopts this practice it will spread far and wide from this populous country.

The impact of the ban has generated a lot of awareness and curiosity for people to check out this great Protector. It has attracted a lot of people into this practice. The positive outweighs the negative and I hope the sufferings of Dorje Shugden practitioners will end soon with the lifting of the ban.

[Ensapa]

1) the higher purpose prophecy has bee n predicted by Trijang Rinpoche himself and 2) DS has very clearly proclaimed that his followers should support HHDL despite the ban through the oracle.

Dear Ensapa,

How curious!  I'm really not aware of this at all.  Could you kindly give information about exactly what Trijang Rinpoche said, when and where, and which oracle said we should support the Dalai Lama and exactly what he said?

Thanks 

You would if you read.

From Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors:

But some who are narrow minded, not
understanding this point, consider this Dharmapala to be like an ordinary worldly
being and, with supposed faith in the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama,
disparage him; or else they indeed admire this great Dharmapala but criticize the
Dalai Lama or Panchen Lama. Using either one as a reason not to admire the other
and speaking badly about either in any way is the conduct of an ordinary being
who, under the influence of attachment and hatred, just tries to help friends and
hurt enemies; it obscures the increase of these great holy Aryas' deeds and
creates the karmic cause to experience unbearable suffering in the future. Why is
this true? Because it is utterly impossible that such great beings, who are special
emanations of Arya Avalokiteswara and Buddha Amitabha, could lack the power
to overcome the harmful force of any sort of magical spell, harmful demon, or
spirit. This is because they are both powerful Lords who have overcome external
and internal maras without exception.   

Yup. From Trijang Rinpoche himself.

As for the oracle, can someone help me here as I remember very clearly it has been mentioned before.

[shugdenprotect]

Whether there could have been a better "game plan" other than imposing a ban on Dorje Shugden is a question that is difficult to answer today because we were not present at the moment the decision was made. Based on the principal of impermanence, change occurs constantly, making it difficult to judge what was the best option or decision at a different point of time. Thus, I believe that it is more progressive to have faith that the ban was the best choice at that moment. Additionally, pondering over “coulda, shoulda and woulda” is a never ending mind game that lack constructiveness.

More than three decades ago when Dorje Shugden was “born”, much suffering occurred where crops were destroyed, livestock was lost and continuous natural disasters beset the land. According to the law of cause and effect, what happens to us is a consequence of our actions i.e karma (and in certain cases like this one, our collective karma). So, we cannot put the responsibility of the suffering we experience on others. Therefore, based on this principal of karma, there are points of view that these occurrences manifested to purify the collective negative karma resulting from the murder of Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen. When the negative karma was exhausted, the people were able to receive a Dorje Shugden - Buddha and Protector - that is most perfect for this degenerate age.

Relating the above to the Dorje Shugden ban, the suffering is manifested to exhaust our collective negative karma so that the practice of Dorje Shugden may enter mainstream Buddhism to open His karmic link millions of people. Based on results, where more people have gotten to know of Dorje Shugden since the ban, there are solid grounds for this argument. Thus, although it is sad that many suffered as a consequence of the ban, this suffering was necessary for eventual benefit.

As Dondrup stated, we still lack the wisdom. Thus, what we should do is learn up and read up more from the website and put our learning into practice by participating in this forum. This will develop our wisdom in time and also create the merits for the ban to be lifted.

Nevertheless, thank you tsangpakarpo for posing this question and prompting us to think more.