What happen to HARMONY?

[Tammy]

Recently I have witness many unpleasant moments in one of my friends' church. I was invited to join they Sunday mass and was horrified to see the way some 'senior' members literary yelling at those who were relatively new to the congregation. It was so loud and rude and was in public. The younger member was not given a chance to explain him!!!

And, you may ask, "what was the reason for the outburst?" apparently the younger member was late for a training session held easier and he was trying to explain the reason for being late. After talking to the younger member, my friend found out that his reason being late was rather valid.

The younger member had since have doubts. Why cant there be a better method to deal with the incident? Why do many of the senior be so unpleasant?

I would think twice if my friend extend another invitation this Sunday...

[bambi]

I understand about the confusion. Everywhere we go, we see disharmony in organizations but that doesn't mean that all of them are the same. There will definitely be rotten apples here and there. If those apples are so perfect, they don't need to go to a church in the 1st place. For whatever reasons, we must always practice patience and understanding as part of our mind transformation. It is taught in all religions BUT do all of us really practice it?? Perhaps the 'senior' member was trying to teach the younger member something, that we do not know of OR the young member have had this problem before.

You can also refer to this post for similar issue.
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1875.0

[Manjushri]

Dear Tammy,

I don't think that you should base your judgement on whether to go or not over just one incident between members of the church. I think what is more important is that if you value the teachings of the religion, and focus on that itself as opposed to the members within the organisation, that would be a much better alternative. Why have a row between 2 people stop you from seeking spiritual solace?

With regards to the senior member being so rude to the junior one, I guess we can't judge just from that one incident. There may be some history, maybe the senior member had something bad happen which made him/her lose her cool, I dunno.. sometimes it takes a deeper understanding than just taking things on a surface level

[Jessie Fong]

Yes, I agree with Manjushri.

Why let an incident between 2 persons stop you from going to Church?  There is no perfect person.  In fact, you must continue to attend services, just so that you can see the changes that will befall those 2 friends of Church - how they will realise (with help of other friends) that the outburst was just at a moment of anger, for the younger member's lateness has caused other people to wait for him.  Or maybe he had been late frequently for most events and the elder was just trying to make him realise what he did was wrong?

If you allow that incident to stop you from going, then you would be depriving yourself of a chance to attend mass.

[DSFriend]

In every incident, it is likely we have two different stories.. so to say we have "two sides of the coin"
Everyone will have their own valid reasons and often times, seniors will get away with whatever behaviors just because they are deemed to "know better" while the juniors tend to get some sympathy because they "may not know better"

Whatever it is, public perception of any organization is important especially in a religious organization. Sometimes, a 10 seconds outburst will take 10 months to repair…if lucky!  Is it worth it?

[negra orquida]

On one hand, we can't expect everyone who goes to church or temples every weekend to be perfect saints.

On another hand, we shouldn't judge a church or temple or religion based on the people we see who attend the church / temple or practice the religion. One extreme jihadist doesn't render the whole of Islam and all muslims as totally violent or illogical.

On yet another hand, if the seniors of a church / temple are consistently treating juniors in a rude or angry manner, then there may some problem with the church or temple.  but it is not a good excuse to stop practising the religion.  It is up to the observer to check out other churches/temples to see if such behaviour is present there.

If we let a negative incident stop our practice, then we are the ones who lose.  Rather than seeing something negative and judge, complain, but do nothing about it, take action and responsibility over your own spiritual growth.

Its funny how so many people can tolerate demanding, unreasonable, greedy bosses, continue to work for them even though they know full well of the bosses' shortcomings, but they would still stay on with the company and continue to serve the company.  But when it comes to religion, once we see the archbishop or pastor as not what we expect them to be, we just leave.

[biggyboy]

No one is perfect.  If everyone were to act perfectly well according to our perception as to how one should act in the church or center then we would not have churches or centers around...none are free from these problem. If everyone is perfect, we do need to go for any sunday services too.  Why the hang up?  Do not use it as a deterrent for oneself of not attending the sunday services just because of that one person. If we see 'wrong', we should use it as the basis for us to practise, transform and be the beacon to others.

We must search into ourselves at all times and check the level of our own practice and motivation.  Ample knowledge and skillful methods are necessary to be applied and to guide others as people’s spiritualities are very delicate and must be handled with great care and compassion.

[pgdharma]

Not every one who go to church or temple are perfect. In fact, whether in church or temple we can find difficult people. They are there for a reason, to seek spiritual help. If they are so perfect and saintly, they would not have gone in the first place.  By not attending the Sunday service, is equivalent to running away and trying to avoid the problem. If we feel that it is wrong, we should look deeper and try to understand the cause of the outburst. This outburst is like a lesson for us not to behave like them. How would we react if we are in the seniors' position? Will be better or worse than them?

[Midakpa]

I agree that no one is perfect and that we should not let one incident deter us from going to church. Also, I agree with DSFriend that it is not worth losing one's temper for 10 seconds which takes 10 months to repair. In Buddhism, one moment of anger is enough to erase all our merits accumulated in this life and in our past lives.

First, ask yourself why you go to church. Certainly not because of other church members! You do not go to church on the condition that they are nice to you! What is your purpose of going to church? Are you benefitting from the teachings? Do the teachings make you a better person? If so, don't let that incident be an obstacle.

[sonamdhargey]

In every incident, it is likely we have two different stories.. so to say we have "two sides of the coin"
Everyone will have their own valid reasons and often times, seniors will get away with whatever behaviors just because they are deemed to "know better" while the juniors tend to get some sympathy because they "may not know better"

Whatever it is, public perception of any organization is important especially in a religious organization. Sometimes, a 10 seconds outburst will take 10 months to repair…if lucky!  Is it worth it?

I totally agree with you on this. Being a senior in religious organization does not grant them the rights to an outburst be it to other senior members or juniors. It is upmost important that the religious place is most sacred and mindfullness must be practiced at all times as the centre may have new seekers wanting to know the centre. With outburst and rudeness from especially seniors with new people around will only give them a negative impression. Yes nobody is perfect and all religious centre will have their problems and issues. By knowing that all are not pefect, Which reaction would you choose if this happened to you? An outburst or a better way? The results depends on your decision.

[RedLantern]

As senior members in a religious organization,they should examine whether their action, whether connected to body or speech is likely to be harmful to one self or others.The resultant of an action depends on the intention more than the action itself.
So I totally agree that seniors should be more mindful towards new people.A religious centre is a sacred place and should be filled with harmonious atmosphere instead of a unnecessary outburst which could plant negative thoughts on new people.What would you do,if you are faced with a similar situation?

[sonamdhargey]

I agree that no one is perfect and that we should not let one incident deter us from going to church. Also, I agree with DSFriend that it is not worth losing one's temper for 10 seconds which takes 10 months to repair. In Buddhism, one moment of anger is enough to erase all our merits accumulated in this life and in our past lives.

First, ask yourself why you go to church. Certainly not because of other church members! You do not go to church on the condition that they are nice to you! What is your purpose of going to church? Are you benefitting from the teachings? Do the teachings make you a better person? If so, don't let that incident be an obstacle.

Agreed, however that is with some knowledge and wisdom. How about for the public with different mind set, who are in need of spiritual help, who are seeking, who have no spriritual knowlege or whatsoever? They may find that centre hostile and unwelcoming by observing it member's attitude and behavior. Those have been to the centre and have learned may not see it negatively and take it as practice, but we cannot assume everyone have a similar mind set, therefore everyone in the centre especially the senior ones must behave properly as they are representatives of the centre.

[Positive Change]

Classic case of airing one's laundry in public... I believe very much in living by example... hence if a 'church' were to act in such a way publicly it is a shame because of the perception it shows especially a negative one in the scenario above.

This example really irritates me especially when it comes from a so called spiritual place. If one does not respect the people around them at least respect the divine in which the structure was built to represent or revere.

Sad that, we are so habitual in our nature, that we cannot refrain from or control our emotions or anger in public... I dread to think where this selfish nature would lead us in our next life. Scary that something so seemingly 'simple' has such serious consequences...

[Benny]

Whilst most agreed that no one is perfect and that is precisely why they are also seekers of spirituality. Some of these seniors tend to feel that by airing dirty laundry in public empowers them and make themselves feel good because they can do so sitting on their moral high horse.

It is an undeniable fact that in most of mankinds organisational culture to have this senior knows best culture and that juniors are suppose to just take in the bullying. Nothing new ! But wait a minute , should this be encourage or even accepted in a spiritual organisation? Are we suppose to be there to cultivate good human qualities instead ? Aren't those who were practicing earlier suppose to be good role models ? It speaks volumes of that organisation, if those who were trained earlier and longer are not good examples themselves.

There are better ways to spread the good teachings and that is by being good ourselves. Religious faith or whatever faith for that matter cannot be won by fear ! That area is for terrorist like Al Qaida to practice. So if religious enforcement is about hurling abuses , threats , punishment and etc then we know something is not right.
Yes , there are other good Muslims practicing their faith in harmony.

[Tammy]

If we feel that it is wrong, we should look deeper and try to understand the cause of the outburst. This outburst is like a lesson for us not to behave like them. How would we react if we are in the seniors' position? Will be better or worse than them?

Dear pgdharma,

I can't agree with you on this, no matter what is our problem, we should make it a point to solve it, face our own demon, instead of letting it out on others. There are many ways to skin a cat (sorry for the analogy), I sincerely wish those who holds high position in any organization (churches included!!) would take a deep breath when you are in the brink of loosing your temper, and be NICE!! It does not cost you anything to be NICE..

And LISTEN to what others have to say.. nobody is perfect and our responsibility as dharma brothers and sisters to support each other in our spiritual path.. the last thing we need is to create an environment of FEAR in the centre! People go to church and spiritual centres to seek peace!

Look around us, there are many centres grow in leaps and bounce and there are centres which are stagnant in membership growth - people go for places where they feel welcome and keep their distance from those which are 'cold' and 'hard'... time to reflect and change.