Karmapa visits Singapore!

[lightning]

Now we are having another Atisha cook testing our patience.

Endorsement of Karmapa "head" should be done within the Karmapa sect and Not from someone outside their sect to endorse. Neither you have the right to tell people whom them should to accept or reject.

Both karmapa are seen as emanation to me.

[Zach]

Hey, I am sorry, but this is not the Karmapa endorsed and recognized by His Holiness the Dalai Lama. This Thaye Dorje is not sanctioned by His Holiness or the high lamas of all the sects of Tibetan Buddhism.

I don't think we should actually promote him as a Karmapa. After all it would hurt the institution of the Karmapas to have a false one doing the job of the genuine one.

Follow the Karmapa endorsed by His Holiness the Dalai Lama.

This is the Karmapa who was traditionally recognised, His actions of promoting Buddhadharma speak itself.

If that is the case HHDL is promoting the Buddhadharma like no lama can and that should shout volumes in itself.

If you accept the Karmapa not authorized by HHDL, then all Dorje Shugden practitioners should not accept the Panchen Lama chosen and installed by China. Traditionally the Panchen incarnations are found and recognized by HHDL always. Even if the Chinese Panchen is studying, teaching and promoting the BuddhaDharma. He is still not the real Panchen Lama as he was not recognized in the traditional manner.   

Yes HHDL does a good job of promoting Himself. There can be multiple Incarnations of Holy Lama's its not unheard of. Thaye Trinley Dorje and Ogyen Trinley Dorje may well in fact be the same being however one is traditionally recognized and the other one was chosen by some very dodgy means and is also recognized by the Chinese and the Dalai lama, I have also heard Ogyen Trinley Dorje was recognized as another Incarnation before he was selected to be the Karmapa.

Same with the Panchen Lama one is traditionally recognized and yet has disappeared and there is another one selected by the Chinese government who fulfills the role of the Panchen Lama and has the approval of several high Lama's.

It is the same as all Incarnations their job is to spread the Dharma first and foremost, Some Incarnation lineages swap at times as well to Indicate that they are all from Buddha for example did you know Trijang Rinpoche once fulfilled the role as the Karmapa ?

The Worth of any recognized being is in their capacity to spread Dharma and help others Buddha bless those who have no official title yet spread the doctrine just as well.

[Ensapa]

If that is the case HHDL is promoting the Buddhadharma like no lama can and that should shout volumes in itself.

If you accept the Karmapa not authorized by HHDL, then all Dorje Shugden practitioners should not accept the Panchen Lama chosen and installed by China. Traditionally the Panchen incarnations are found and recognized by HHDL always. Even if the Chinese Panchen is studying, teaching and promoting the BuddhaDharma. He is still not the real Panchen Lama as he was not recognized in the traditional manner.   

here's a news flash for you: true reincarnations or tulkus do not require recognition to perform their works on benefitting others. Reincarnations do not need titles. They just do whatever they will or find their way to benefit others and most of them dont even seek a title. If HHDL does not approve of Thaye Dorje, so what if he can bless and teach many people the way the 16th Karmapa can?

 Even if the Chinese Panchen is studying, teaching and promoting the BuddhaDharma. He is still not the real Panchen Lama as he was not recognized in the traditional manner, but the point is he can lead and teach more people than any of us ever can and when he can do that, does a recognition and a name matter that much? After all it is just a title and nothing more.

I will not go for lamas with big names and big titles if they are always too busy for me and they barely have time to train me personally as I do need to be trained personally. Also, some of the most powerful Lamas, highly skilled in teaching and attainments do not possess a title as well but yet they can perform a lot of powerful activities that many of us cannot.

At this point, I realize that HHDL chose his choice of Karmapa because the 16th Karmapa is pro Dorje Shugden and HHDL knows this, which is why he needs another emanation of Karmapa that is more quiet about this to assume that position. However he could do little to stop the real Karmapa from getting recognized, or rather he allowed that to happen deliberately, perhaps to prove a point...hmmm

[Manjushri]

Who are we to judge who or who not to promote, who the real karmapa or panchen lama should be. At one time, there can be various emanations of the same mindstream to suit different people. Why hold up on our own dictations of how things should be. Anyways, I agree very much with Ensapa! Titles and recognitions are only for who like to base our judgements and get attracted to big names/titles/recognitions etc and be close to the Dharma that way. It is for our own minds. A lama, with or without titles and recognition, should be praised for what he does, how many he has helped, how he is continually working to spread the BuddhaDharma. Look at the current Abbot of Gaden Shartse..with his title, what is he doing for his monastery?

"The Abbot of Gaden Shartse...with his own Agenda"http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1927

[Ensapa]

Who are we to judge who or who not to promote, who the real karmapa or panchen lama should be. At one time, there can be various emanations of the same mindstream to suit different people. Why hold up on our own dictations of how things should be. Anyways, I agree very much with Ensapa! Titles and recognitions are only for who like to base our judgements and get attracted to big names/titles/recognitions etc and be close to the Dharma that way. It is for our own minds. A lama, with or without titles and recognition, should be praised for what he does, how many he has helped, how he is continually working to spread the BuddhaDharma. Look at the current Abbot of Gaden Shartse..with his title, what is he doing for his monastery?

"The Abbot of Gaden Shartse...with his own Agenda"http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1927

A Lama should be recognized for his achievements and his knowledge, compassion, wisdom and skill in teaching others and not because of their fancy title and rank. Nowhere in the 50 verses of Guru devotion does it list down the rank and title of a Lama would equate to him or her being a perfect Lama but to look at the qualities of the Lama before accepting him or her as a teacher.

even in the namtars or the hagiographies of the saints in Buddhism, nobody ever checked out the teacher's rank and name if they were recognized by the abbot of Nalanda or whatever. They just checked out the teacher and made decisions to follow the teacher based on their own judgement. Milarepa did not follow Marpa because he was famous, he did so because Marpa showed him love and kindness.

so to choose a lama or a lineage based on how popular a lama is alone, without checking him prior according to traditional texts, which is basically logical: you dont need the text to tell you that a real teacher is kind, compassionate and wise to his or her students and who demonstrates his genuine knowledge of the teachings without pretense or guile. All these can be observed.

To rely on the judgement of others to determine if a teacher is good or bad is just silly in all the ways because what may work for others may not work for you which is why it is very important that we all actually check out the teacher that we would like to take refuge in and take him or her as our teacher and not because out of convenience or because he or her has a very nice and high title.

[thaimonk]

I don't have anything against whichever karmapa people choose. Up to them.

If you google the schedule, he is just giving empowerments and initiations. Not much dharma talk. How do you give so many initiations to people without preparations and teachings? Without foundations.

I think there should be stronger standards prior to initiations.

[Tenzin Gyatso]

I guess the more initiations you give publicly without any foundational teachings is gathering of students to be on your camp. Since this Karmapa is not the one chosen by the HHDL, Tibetan Govt and majority of the people, he'll have to work very hard to get as much people as he can to be his students by random and massive initiations. To have many supporters will 'validate' his throne taken from the authentic Karmapa.

I know this sounds harsh but isn't this what it's about?

His Holiness gives initiations but he has given foundational, scriptural, textual teachings in all the great monasteries of all sects, in many countries and to hundreds of thousands for the last 50 years. I think he has prepared those who wish to be prepared for higher initiations for decades.

My opinion is there cannot be two Karmapas. There can be hundreds of emanations of Karmapa but only one can hold his name title "Karmapa".

You can't have two or three persons holding the names of all the lamas can you? I mean two Panchen Lamas, two Dalai Lamas, two Samdong Rinpoches, two Dilgo Kyentze Rinpoches, two Trijang Rinpoches and so on. It will become very confusing.
 
Only one person should hold the title of Karmapa. Not two.
 

[Ensapa]

I don't have anything against whichever karmapa people choose. Up to them.

If you google the schedule, he is just giving empowerments and initiations. Not much dharma talk. How do you give so many initiations to people without preparations and teachings? Without foundations.

I think there should be stronger standards prior to initiations.

Sometimes, Lamas give initiations as blessings and not really for practice as they want to plant blessings and seeds to as many people as possible so that they will ripen in the future and that they will encounter the Dharma in the future and really do actual practice in the future. This practice is more prevalent in the Nyigma and Kagyu tradtitions and is less pronounced in Gelug and Sakya.

We have to understand that Nyigma and Kagyu were founded at a time where the people were not very educated and Dharma teachings are rare and far in between. In this situation, the best thing to be done is to plant a very huge Dharma seeds in the people: by giving them an initiation without any expectation for them to practice. This way, perhaps in a future life the right conditions will appear and they will practice the Dharma.

In many cases, Lamas also travel, give blessings and initiations also to help raise funds for their own monasteries or sometimes, they do that to "test the water" and to check out the inhabitants of that place so that they can find appropriate teachings and angle them correctly according to their mentality. There is definitely no way that when these lamas give initiations they expect the people to practice.

Lastly but not least, it could also be that the Dharma centers and sponsors who request for initiations without understanding what is it for, but just because they think that having initiations is Dharma and they dont know what else to request  from the Lamas. And of course, these Lamas have to comply with the wishes of the patrons and sponsors. So I dont think we should blame the Lama entirely but at the sponsors who are not responsible with their requests.

[kris]

Some 1000 years ago, the great Atisha travel from India to Sumatra (next to Singapore) to request teachings from another great master Suvarnadvipi. May be now Singapore is the next place for Buddhism to spread far and wide?? As Thor pointed out, HH Dalai Lama himself said that there are a growing of Dorje Shugden practitioners in Singapore.

Can Singapore really be THE place?

Personally I think it is pretty tough. From what I know, Singapore is a city country which religion/spiritual are very much degenerated. People in Singapore (in general) are very scarcity. Generally, people only pray to Buddha for wealth and personal enjoyment. I thinki it is not just Singapore, but people in Asia in general.

I think Karmapa visits Singapore is more of a "convenient", because Singapore is a very well organized country, especially if you want to hold huge conference. They have all the logistics well setup for this purpose.

In any case, I do hope that the visit of HH 17th Gyalwa Karmapa Trinley Thaye Dorje will bring some fresh water to the spiritual desert...

[harrynephew]

it is true that within the 50 verses of devotion to the Guru, no such thing of the establishment of predecessors determine whether he is your Guru or not. The only determining factors are the qualities which he holds within himself in terms of ethics and virtues which reflect the Dharma. The Tulku system runs differently in different sects and schools and there is no one definite manual which we can make it the rule of thumb in order to make a clear cut decision on who's who. The 50 verses serves as a better guide for those in search of a spiritual guide.

Singapore is definitely a spiritually dried up place in terms of spiritual Guides and a modest means of practice. We can view things both ways, one end from the teacher's point which is to have compassion for these folks on the one island nation who does not have any access to food for the mind - spirituality. Teachers come here motivated by compassion to teach and give blessings to the people here in order to bridge the gap of sentient beings with the Dharma.

From the side of the receiver, it is due to fervent prayers made whether presently or in the past coupled with the holding of the necessary vows and commitments relevant to this Guru-disciple relationship that blossoms in this very present into a fruitful one. If not, just merely seeing the Guru makes the person's mindset shift for the better.

It is when both the teacher and the receiver come together, the receiver realizes the ultimate intention of the Guru, then from that moment on, everything changes for the better

[Ensapa]

I guess the more initiations you give publicly without any foundational teachings is gathering of students to be on your camp. Since this Karmapa is not the one chosen by the HHDL, Tibetan Govt and majority of the people, he'll have to work very hard to get as much people as he can to be his students by random and massive initiations. To have many supporters will 'validate' his throne taken from the authentic Karmapa.

I know this sounds harsh but isn't this what it's about?

His Holiness gives initiations but he has given foundational, scriptural, textual teachings in all the great monasteries of all sects, in many countries and to hundreds of thousands for the last 50 years. I think he has prepared those who wish to be prepared for higher initiations for decades.

My opinion is there cannot be two Karmapas. There can be hundreds of emanations of Karmapa but only one can hold his name title "Karmapa".

You can't have two or three persons holding the names of all the lamas can you? I mean two Panchen Lamas, two Dalai Lamas, two Samdong Rinpoches, two Dilgo Kyentze Rinpoches, two Trijang Rinpoches and so on. It will become very confusing.
 
Only one person should hold the title of Karmapa. Not two.
 

Lets see...the 16th Karmapa supported Dorje Shugden explicitly so it will only make a lot of sense that the 17th one does. I believe that HHDL chose his own candidate that is quiet and does not speak up much so that it will not be too radical for the tibetans and their american students, and be less confusing for them to choose. After all unity is better than having students with many different viewpoints.

Also, there are several lamas who have several different incarnations, among them being the Jamyang Khyetse tulkus, where Dzongzar Khyentse and Dilgo Khyentse is said to be the same being if I am not mistaken so it is possible to have 2 recognitions of the same being. The same thing happened to the 6th Dalai Lama, where one of them is the quiet one and the other is the Mahasiddha one.

In the Dalai Lama's biorgraphy, the Dalai Lama himself said that both recognized of the Dalai Lama were valid and accurate even though the tibetans would like to believe that the one who was installed by the Dzungzar mongols are fake, but the Dalai Lama has stated very clearly that he is also the emanation of Avalokiteshvara and thus is a valid incarnation too.

If we can accept that enlightened beings can emanate, and that we accept that such high lamas are enlightened, then we should also be able to accept that high lamas can have more than one incarnations depending on the situation and also conditions. Else, we say that we believe that the lamas are enlightened by our words but we in actuality see them only as ordinary beings.

[Zach]

If I was a Kagyu I'd want to make sure that the Karmapa I follow is traditionally recognized