Tulku, Panchen, Dalai Lama, China....

[kris]

As most of us are aware about the 11th Panchen Lama controversial (HH Dalai Lama and China have their own candidates), I am wondering what will happen when HH Dalai Lama pass away.

There has been talk about HHDL may not re-incarnate back as human after this incarnation. HHDL himself had also said that He will not re-incarnate inside China. There are many different "versions", but what I am concern is something similar to 11th Panchen Lama, and it really confuse people.

If HHDL do not re-incarnate back, but China declared that HHDL has returned to China, then how do us lay people know who to listen to? Like the 11th Panchen Lama controversial, who do we lay people listen to?

Or we just don't care about the political stands and only focus on the Dharma teachings? Also, is there a way to end this confusion? (This 11th Panchen Lama controversial has really confused me, even until today)

[Klein]

Personally, I feel that as dharma practitioners, we should just focus on our practice. Knowing and not knowing who the real incarnation is will not affect our spiritual growth. Leave that to the monasteries to find out. They will have their ways to find out.

Many people are caught up with issues like this and some may even become political with other Buddhist organisations. They seem to have gone askew from their spiritual practice. I believe that focus is very important. All these issues are distractions just like our other distractions such as work, family, hobbies, relationships, and so on.

Transforming our mind takes a lot of effort. Just like anything we want to accomplish in our life, we need to stay focused and go all the way.

[DharmaDefender]

I gotta agree with Klein for the most part.

Theres the side of me that says well, it shouldnt be ignored. It is important because its a cultural heritage.

Then theres the other part of me that says well, who cares about culture when your only your culture for this lifetime alone? Why get caught up in something you cant take at your death?

Another perspective on the Dalai Lama saying that he will be the last Dalai Lama...if controlling ones rebirth is a sign of attainments, the fact the Dalai Lama can DECLARE that he may not reincarnate back as a human, is a pretty roundabout way of him hinting that he can control his rebirth.

[DharmaDefender]

Soz I didnt finish that last message!

If he is hinting that he can control his rebirths, then hes got to have attainments in order to do have such control. And if he has the attainments to control his rebirth, then how can a mere spirit (as hes labelled Dorje Shugden) harm him and control his rebirth? It doesnt make sense.

[icy]

DharmaDefender is right.  Dalai Lama is hinting he is able to control his rebirth therefore, in this case he is not vulnerable to any spirit harm.  What he is saying Dorje Shugden is an evil spirit can harm him is totally absurb.  This is a lie that he churns up as a cover story to promote Dorje Shugden to the whole wide world at all cost so Dorje Shugden will flourish and remain on earth to greatly benefit all man kind.  How skillful he is. 

[Ensapa]

As most of us are aware about the 11th Panchen Lama controversial (HH Dalai Lama and China have their own candidates), I am wondering what will happen when HH Dalai Lama pass away.

There has been talk about HHDL may not re-incarnate back as human after this incarnation. HHDL himself had also said that He will not re-incarnate inside China. There are many different "versions", but what I am concern is something similar to 11th Panchen Lama, and it really confuse people.

If HHDL do not re-incarnate back, but China declared that HHDL has returned to China, then how do us lay people know who to listen to? Like the 11th Panchen Lama controversial, who do we lay people listen to?

Or we just don't care about the political stands and only focus on the Dharma teachings? Also, is there a way to end this confusion? (This 11th Panchen Lama controversial has really confused me, even until today)

Although HHDL is instrumental in the spread of the Dharma in the world, I doubt that it is his intention at all to become a celebrity figure where people listen to him not for Dharma, but because it is nothing more than a personality cult and people listen to whatever he says no matter how much it contradicts the Dharma and no matter how illogical it sounds.

I strongly believe that the ban was a social experiment to prove this theory. Over the years, there are people other than the Dalai Lama who are against Dorje Shugden because they are afraid of the consequences, or rather, they refuse to just follow one teaching and one lineage and prefer to seek different lineages elsewhere for whatever reasons...and based on this they dislike Dorje Shugden.

From what I have read so far, all the anti Dorje Shugden press from various "masters" came after the ban. There were no testimonials that spoke out against Dorje Shugden before the ban started, contrary to what the Dalai Lama had said in his website. There is only one testimonial by Chakya Rolpa Dorje (which, hilariously, was banned by the Tibetan government and both Pabongkha and his Mongolian incarnation now supports Dorje Shugden) which means that it was somehow distorted...

the 11th panchen lama controversy isnt too hard to understand: HHDL chose a boy candidate that is in China (of all places!) and announced it publicly (no surprise to what china will do to this boy...right?). The boy has apparently refused to go to Dharamsala (or so what China claims) but China found another panchen lama through the golden urn divination process, and the Chinese panchen lama seems to be doing quite well, even leading the Chinese buddhist council....

[brian]

For me personally, I feel I will be following what His Holiness has said, if he sayd he is not coming back as a human then we should not be too attached to find out whether the china version of Dalai Lama (if China really came up with one). In the end of the day it is our spiritual growth and we rely on our Gurus and our practice. For sure the will always be controversy anywhere but we believe what HHDL will say on his next reincarnation.

[DharmaDefender]

For me personally, I feel I will be following what His Holiness has said, if he sayd he is not coming back as a human then we should not be too attached to find out whether the china version of Dalai Lama (if China really came up with one). In the end of the day it is our spiritual growth and we rely on our Gurus and our practice. For sure the will always be controversy anywhere but we believe what HHDL will say on his next reincarnation.

Actually brian you bring up a good point we often overlook. Ive noticed that as a tradition, were getting caught up with the outer trappings of religion. Its not easy to resist, with all this colourful esoteric stuff surrounding us. We want to show were religious and spiritual, when inside we might jsut be rotten to the core - my friends used to say they never understood their mates when they leave church, and swear in the parking lots. Thats not to say the rituals are not important, but ultimately the point of us practising is to achieve the inner attainments to free ourselves from this endless cycle of death and rebirth. And thats ultimately what Dorje Shugden is about. He isnt there to give us wealth, health, harmony, a new car and all that nonsense (go to the bank if you need that stuff!). Hes all about the lamrim and transformation, to the point its reflected in his body!

[harrynephew]

I have deep faith in HH the Panchen Lamas and do not think that the power of emanation can succumb to the dirty hands of politicians who have their own agenda pasted all over their faces. My firm believe is on the basis that all Buddhas and Bodhisattvas operate from ultimate compassion which does not limit their means to benefit sentient beings.

Even within the Tibetan community, we see fractions which are created within the community in exile itself. The Karmapa contraversy has been hovering the skies of the Karma Kagyu lineage practitioners but it does not seem to be as big of an issue in the eyes of international media when you put them together side by side.

High Lamas, Tulkus and spiritual guides these days are not famous just by their titles, I see a new trend in the Tibetan Buddhist comminity now which I find it more heartwarming and also something tangible which we can base our judgements on. We see Lamas these day with either big or small titles stive for the betterment of their following and the results of their practice/teaching/care/nurturing is seen by how the amount of their works and following of QUALITY students GROW!

That I find more tangible rather than chasing after idol Lamas due to their name, it is more practical this way. Let us leave the fate of HHDL who can control His rebirth to the prayers of his students and followers. We should focus on our own Lamas, our own centres and make it flourish. By starting from ourselves, we make a difference by preserving this age old wisdom which our Lamas painstaking saved from the ruins and sadness of war for us.

[Galen]

The important thing is the spread of Buddhism throughout the world especially China as it is the world's most populous country. And Buddhism has been a part of the Chinese culture for centuries as records shows that the emperors practice Buddhism during their reign.

The Dalai Lama has said that he will not come back after he leaves and also hinted that the best person to take over from him is the Karmapa. But then again, the Panchen Lama is also coming of age and has been highlighted in the Chinese political scene where he is seen to have met the Chinese Premier. Also, there is news of the other Panchen Lama who has disappeared since a child has been found in China. So who will lead Buddhism after HHDL? It doesn't matter because all it matters is the practitioners continue to practice as instructed by their guru. That is most important!

[Dolce Vita]

I think dharma teaching is more important than whether the lama is a reincarnated monk. I believe as a Bodhisattva, HHDL will still be reborn, but he doesn't want to be recognised. He has said not only once that's is just a simple monk, he doesn't want to be involved in politics, he just want to be spiritual practitioner. If he is reborn and not recognised, he will be able to spread dharma and not have no be involved in secular works. In a way, his decision is going to benefit more people than being the political head.

[Ensapa]

The important thing is the spread of Buddhism throughout the world especially China as it is the world's most populous country. And Buddhism has been a part of the Chinese culture for centuries as records shows that the emperors practice Buddhism during their reign.

The Dalai Lama has said that he will not come back after he leaves and also hinted that the best person to take over from him is the Karmapa. But then again, the Panchen Lama is also coming of age and has been highlighted in the Chinese political scene where he is seen to have met the Chinese Premier. Also, there is news of the other Panchen Lama who has disappeared since a child has been found in China. So who will lead Buddhism after HHDL? It doesn't matter because all it matters is the practitioners continue to practice as instructed by their guru. That is most important!

Perhaps in the place of the Dalai Lama, the Panchen Lama will lead Tibet without CTA. He can effectively function as the head of Tibet proper without much intervention from bumbling and corrupt Tibetan officials who care not for the people or the welfare of the country but only for their own status, power and recognition but yet they refuse to earn that right and rather demand it from people.

After this perhaps China may have their own Dalai Lama and maybe this Dalai Lama will not go back to the hands of the CTA ever again, and he might even display many signs and indications that he is the 14th Dalai Lama but he will never ever go back to CTA or Dharamsala again and he will work harmoniously with the Chinese government to bring Dharma to not only to Tibetans but to the Chinese as well.

perhaps that might happen if HHDL's main agenda is just to take care of the Tibetans so that they do not suffer and are well provided for. Or perhaps, it is the broken samaya by the CTA that has pushed HHDL away from them All these signs point to that HHDL is growing quite weary of the CTA, especially after the mysterious deaths of several incarnations.

It would be interesting indeed if China's Dalai Lama in the future displays the same activities as the 14th Dalai Lama and the CTA's Dalai Lama just stays low and quiet for a very long period of time or shows very little activity and refuses to get involved with administration as the CTA has generated more than enough negativities for this to happen. All it needs is a time for it to ripen.

[Positive Change]

Personally, I feel that as dharma practitioners, we should just focus on our practice. Knowing and not knowing who the real incarnation is will not affect our spiritual growth. Leave that to the monasteries to find out. They will have their ways to find out.

Many people are caught up with issues like this and some may even become political with other Buddhist organisations. They seem to have gone askew from their spiritual practice. I believe that focus is very important. All these issues are distractions just like our other distractions such as work, family, hobbies, relationships, and so on.

Transforming our mind takes a lot of effort. Just like anything we want to accomplish in our life, we need to stay focused and go all the way.

I agree with what Klien says here too.. however we need to also be able to rely on a proper and accurate lineage and that comes from an unbroken line of incarnations whom return life after life to show us the way out of samsara.

If China were to be play the game of "recognising" the future Dalai Lama and using his as their pawn, it would be rather obvious and given the whole issue with the Panchen Lama, perhaps they would use a different strategy altogether...

Perhaps "getting rid" of HHDL's credibility and propitiate the very protector that HHDL has banned? That would be something more immediate and "effective" in their minds wouldnt it? Hang on a moment, isnt that happening already...

I wonder who is the smarter one here???

[Barzin]

Hence, to learn the dharma now to acquire as much knowledge as possible is important...  Imagine, there could even be 5 His Holiness in the near future.  We are even now discussing Tantra openly and in older days, it was suppose to be secret.  Let alone reincarnation, the mystical power of a Tibetan lama is all part of the package for people to learn the dharma.  Don't forget as Buddha predicted, the dark age is that the word dharma is even hard to "hear" in times to come... People by that time will not know about lineage, authenticity of a lama but hopefully just practice basic human ethics compassion, giving and tolerance... I hope the world won't degenerate until that extend. 

Therefore come to think of it, the controversial of Shugden, Tibet and China.. all are necessary for the dhrama to spread.  It is the practitioners need to learn as much as we can to preserve the lineage, it is possible.  We just have to do it.  Wouldn't it be wonderful when the ban is lifted and Shugden practitioners unite with all the other dharma practitioners and unite for the spread of Buddhism?  It is happen.  The time is now.

[Ensapa]

I agree with what Klien says here too.. however we need to also be able to rely on a proper and accurate lineage and that comes from an unbroken line of incarnations whom return life after life to show us the way out of samsara.

If China were to be play the game of "recognising" the future Dalai Lama and using his as their pawn, it would be rather obvious and given the whole issue with the Panchen Lama, perhaps they would use a different strategy altogether...

Perhaps "getting rid" of HHDL's credibility and propitiate the very protector that HHDL has banned? That would be something more immediate and "effective" in their minds wouldnt it? Hang on a moment, isnt that happening already...

I wonder who is the smarter one here???

After the study and training, I doubt that the Chinese versions of the Panchen Lama and the Dalai Lama will still be a pawn. Their minds will change and transform and they will actually embody Amithaba and Cherenzig in China and benefit many while not getting on the bad site of the Chinese government. I dont think it is entirely a bad thing after all because how can any government control Buddhas?

The current Chinese Panchen Lama is very promising already with the right lineage and the right studies. He is even able to lead the Chinese mahayana monks in the world Buddhist conference that China held. And for sure, he will practice and promote Dorje Shugden to the many people of China just as his predecessor did and perhaps even to chinese speaking countries like Taiwan as well.

The practitioners not just need to learn but they also need to put into practice as much as they learned so that the practice and real Dharma will not be destroyed. The Buddha had said that taking his words on a literal level and as intellectual stimulation is like handling a water snake by the tail as they will harm people who do not use it to benefit themselves and others.

As such, whether or not the lineages will survive will depend entirely on how the disciples manage to practice and preserve the lineage and not let it be as intellectual knowledge because experience and not technical know how is more important in the long run. Scholars can study all they can but if they do not put anything into practice, nobody will follow to them or listen to them at the end of the day.