Guru or protector?

[Tenzin Gyatso]

His Holiness the Dalai Lama is the overlord of ten million mandala cycles. For many incarnations has upheld the BuddhaDharma in the barbaric land of snows. Who was predicted by Guru Rinpoche himself as the head of the nation and holder of the dharma. Who is the most famous and most knowledgeable lama on the planet right now. For whom without Tibetan Buddhism would have perished and never reach the world beyond the land of snows. Whose authenticity is recognized the world over by heads of states, heads of major religions, feared by the Chinese Govt and has won the hearts of millions of people should be convincing enough he is to be followed. We should follow such a lama and with all our devotion and practice towards his teachings. No one can rival His Holiness in today's Buddhism. This should say so much.

On the other hand? What did Shugden do? He has seemingly created mischief, sectarianism, according to Zimey Rinpoche's yellow book he has killed off lamas who did not comply to his wishes and marginalized the Gelugs from the other sects? Why should we follow such a being? Actions do speak louder than words.

Why should we follow such a being who cannot compare to His Holiness the Dalai Lama?

[Zach]

His Holiness is not everyone's Guru or even Root teacher students should follow their root teachers instructions explicitly.

[Ensapa]

His Holiness the Dalai Lama is the overlord of ten million mandala cycles. For many incarnations has upheld the BuddhaDharma in the barbaric land of snows. Who was predicted by Guru Rinpoche himself as the head of the nation and holder of the dharma. Who is the most famous and most knowledgeable lama on the planet right now. For whom without Tibetan Buddhism would have perished and never reach the world beyond the land of snows. Whose authenticity is recognized the world over by heads of states, heads of major religions, feared by the Chinese Govt and has won the hearts of millions of people should be convincing enough he is to be followed. We should follow such a lama and with all our devotion and practice towards his teachings. No one can rival His Holiness in today's Buddhism. This should say so much.

On the other hand? What did Shugden do? He has seemingly created mischief, sectarianism, according to Zimey Rinpoche's yellow book he has killed off lamas who did not comply to his wishes and marginalized the Gelugs from the other sects? Why should we follow such a being? Actions do speak louder than words.

Why should we follow such a being who cannot compare to His Holiness the Dalai Lama?

He protected the life of the current Daiai Lama and there are many, many physical evidence and eyewitness accounts on this. He also urged his disciples to form Chushi Gangdruk to help protect the Daiai Lama in his journey from tibet to india. Having many eyewitnesses who saw personally that Trijang Rinpoche gave his personal thangka of Dorje Shugden to the Dalai Lama to me is very strong proof he is a positive being.

As for the lamas that were killed, it it obvious that Dorje Shugden did not kill them, but it was intentionally distorted to sound that way. It is due to the negative karma that is incurred by these people which generated the karmic conditions for them to meet such untimely deaths and not the fault of Dorje Shugden but he did try to warn them before things got worse for them and when they did not heed, they died.

Case in question was Lelung Rinpoche who even though realized Chakrasamvara in the Gelug tradition, explored some nyingma termas and this caused him to have wrong views, to see every single lady as a dakini and he engaged in sexual activities with them and even encouraged others to do so. He later died and for several incarnations could not manifest the activity of a lama successfully. Dorje Shugden did not kill him, his own negative karma brought him to where he is. You can read his story in Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors.

Samdhong Rinpoche and Ngari Rinpoche, the Dalai Lama's own brother are both proven incarnations of Dorje Shugden. Why does the Dalai Lama keep them close if he detests Dorje Shudgen as much as he claims to? Isnt it interesting and contradictory that he also granted them titles and not strip them and isolate them? I find that weird, don't you? If Dorje Shugden is bad, so is Trijang Rinpoche and Ling Rinpoche and since Dalai Lama is their student...well, draw the conclusion

 

[dondrup]

... For whom without Tibetan Buddhism would have perished and never reach the world beyond the land of snows.

The People’s Republic of China was probably the biggest contributor to the spread of Tibetan Buddhism in the West and the rest of the World today!  Had the Chinese not invaded Tibet, Tibetan Buddhism may have remained within the Land of Snows and not beyond.  HH Dalai Lama is not the only contributor.  There are so other many high lamas who had caused Tibetan Buddhism to flourish in the West and the rest of the World.  To name a few prominent ones, we have Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, Gelek Rimpoche and Ganchen Rinpoche

HH Dalai Lama’s contribution to the spread of Tibetan Buddhism is undeniable.  However, HH Dalai Lama’s stance on Dorje Shugden and His ban on Dorje Shugden practice are causing much ‘damage’ to His Holiness’ reputation. Without disrespect to HH Dalai Lama, can we follow a lama who is not consistent in his actions e.g. on Dorje Shugden followers?

Why should we follow such a being who cannot compare to His Holiness the Dalai Lama?

Why did HH Dalai Lama follow Dorje Shugden previously before the ban?  If HH Dalai Lama is Chenrezig, he would have known if Dorje Shugden was a spirit and not follow him from the very beginning.
 
It is not for us to say who should follow who.  It is the affinity of sentient beings with their teachers that causes them to follow their teachers.  Everyone has a right to choose and follow their chosen teacher.  Tenzin Gyatso, we respect your right to follow HH Dalai Lama.  Similarly you should respect Dorje Shugden practitioners who had chosen Lord Dorje Shudgen as the Guru, Yidam and Protector!

[Tenzin Gyatso]

His Holiness is not everyone's Guru or even Root teacher students should follow their root teachers instructions explicitly.

LOL. That's like saying Chenresig can't be the guru or capable of being the guru of all sentient beings!

Let's go down this way then, HHDL is the temporal leader of all Tibetans and the Tibetan nation since he was 16 years old. Everyone should follow their leader. He is the undisputed leader as chosen by the regents, Nechung and the Govt of Tibet.

[Barzin]

No doubt, His Holiness is considered the highest lama in the world.  His Buddha dharma work has been consistent life after life.  He is use to deal with thousands and millions of spiritual seekers and practitioners.  and it has been proven life after life.  So the question is why Dorje Shugden?  Dorje Shugden we all know because he was compassionate enough to manifest as a protector. and Ensapa had mentioned that it was Dorje Shugden who gave advice for His Holiness for his escape and the precious thangka.  So life after life, I would say Dorje Shugden has been working with His Holiness hand in hand for the spread of Buddha dharma. 

Dorje Shugden has been controversial since day one, until this very day, we still hear Dorje Shugden's name.  Dorje Shugden is a controversy!  However, that is how I see it.  Out of so many deity, why in this incarnation His Holiness chose Dorje Shugden again?  Wouldn't he have kill him since he acknowledged him as a spirit since the 5th life time?  In actual fact His Holiness has been the best dharma friends with Dorje Shugden for the spread of dharma life after life.  With someone of that caliber as close to His Holiness, I don't see why shouldn't we follow such being.  Should we even list down the names of the high lamas who practice Dorje Shugden?

[Zach]

His Holiness is not everyone's Guru or even Root teacher students should follow their root teachers instructions explicitly.

LOL. That's like saying Chenresig can't be the guru or capable of being the guru of all sentient beings!

Let's go down this way then, HHDL is the temporal leader of all Tibetans and the Tibetan nation since he was 16 years old. Everyone should follow their leader. He is the undisputed leader as chosen by the regents, Nechung and the Govt of Tibet.

Chenrezig has many manifestations not just as HH you know, Just because he is who he is it doesn't make him some sort of infallible pope of Buddhism. I have no connection with him nor do many others there is no reason to abandon our own Guru's advise in favor of HHDL's which doesn't even stand up to historical scrutiny. Open minded people should not follow political dictators there are Tibetans who have been alienated by HHDL and do not follow his views and even HHDL has now said he doesn't wish to play his political role anymore but speaks in favor of democracy which is a good move so your reasons for having to follow him as being a Tibetan a thoroughly wrong.

[shugdenpromoter]

LOL. That's like saying Chenresig can't be the guru or capable of being the guru of all sentient beings!

Let's go down this way then, HHDL is the temporal leader of all Tibetans and the Tibetan nation since he was 16 years old. Everyone should follow their leader. He is the undisputed leader as chosen by the regents, Nechung and the Govt of Tibet.

Well, then we should ignore and burn the 50 Verses of Guru Devotion , Mr Tenzin Gyatso. Maybe CTA should send a MEMO out on this and retract all these books back and reprint them with a new title "50 verses of HH Devotion"

I wonder what the other sect will say to this? 

[Ensapa]

Well, then we should ignore and burn the 50 Verses of Guru Devotion , Mr Tenzin Gyatso. Maybe CTA should send a MEMO out on this and retract all these books back and reprint them with a new title "50 verses of HH Devotion"

I wonder what the other sect will say to this? 

Haha, on the same vein, I think in Tenzin Gyatso's 50 verses, there would be one additional verse, the 51th verse that says "The Dalai Lama or any other lama with a fancy title can overwrite my own teacher's instructions, and gives me the justification to abandon my own teacher if that higher ranking lama said so, even if i have never met that lama before and i only like him." Sound like that way to me

It's absolutely crazy that people even assume that someone else can override their own teacher just because they met a lama with a higher title and bigger name than their own teachers...even if they have never met this teacher at all. So, you're saying that HHDL whom i have never met is more important than my own teacher who has given me so much care, time, attention, love and material gifts, and most importantly, the authentic Dharma teachings? I dont think so.

Even if the Dalai Lama is really Cherenzig, but if we worship him the wrong way or for the wrong reasons i.e. requiring a high ranking lama to be our teacher because we think we simply deserve the best, then Dharma becomes a personality cult that leads to nothing and nowhere, especially in terms of spiritual practice. At the end of the day, following the Dalai Lama's advice does not mean that you are entitled to perform actions that contradict the Dharma.

Dorje Shugden is no doubt very close to the Dalai Lama as they have been collaborating in many activities together for many lifetimes. The other traditions know of this and thus somehow they do bear a grudge against Dorje Shugden which caused them to dislike him until this day. For the Dalai Lama to say he bans Dorje Shugden and then talks about something contradicting in the next sentence is very very peculiar, dont you think?

[kris]

In Tibetan Buddhism, lineage is very important. All the knowledge must be passed down correctly, and Lamas must be able to trace back to the Shakyamuni, to make sure that the scriptures are not made up.

Different gurus/lamas will have different lineages, and many different practices. And because different people are more suitable to certain practice, that's why Shakyamuni has 84000 different types of teachings. What HH Dalai Lama do not teach, it does not mean it is not good, and cannot practice.

Also, when you take up a guru/lama, you need to go 100% with the guru AFTER you have checked him out. So, when he gives you Dorje Shugden, having gone 100%, you will stand firm with the practices from your guru because it is your guru who will give you the enlightenment.

I mean no disrespect to HH Dalai Lama, but who is kinder to me? My guru is kinder to me than HH Dalai Lama because he gave me the Dharma PERSONALLY and guide me PERSONALLY on my spiritual path. Of course I would follow my guru!

It is also because of the controversial that Dorje Shugden practitioners are increasing. May be this "Good cop, Bad cop" strategy is working?

[DharmaDefender]

His Holiness is not everyone's Guru or even Root teacher students should follow their root teachers instructions explicitly.

LOL. That's like saying Chenresig can't be the guru or capable of being the guru of all sentient beings!

Let's go down this way then, HHDL is the temporal leader of all Tibetans and the Tibetan nation since he was 16 years old. Everyone should follow their leader. He is the undisputed leader as chosen by the regents, Nechung and the Govt of Tibet.

"Chosen by the regents, Nechung and the Govt of Tibet", therein lies the problem. Where exactly do the Tibetan people feature in this? He wasnt chosen by the people. And since he was the temporal leader of Tibet, he shouldnt have been making rulings on religious issues since he wasnt (and never has been) the religious leader of the Gelugs (the sect in question since were talking about Dorje Shugdens practice).

Its not a matter of whether His Holiness is capable of being someones Guru. He IS capable but the point is that he WASNT and ISNT everyones Guru, and so shouldve left everyone to follow their own teachers instructions instead of throwing up this controversy. If we are going to touch on the topic of following our Gurus advice, then His Holiness should have also followed his own teachers advice and practices...how can he follow their advice on the lamrim and all the tantras, but ignore their advice on the protector practice?

[brian]

HHDL may not be my Guru, but in view of the current situation and the real picture. i am sort of benefitted from not listening to HHDL's so called instruction of not practicing Dorje Shugden. in fact i found out about this website and every doubt (if any) about the practice was washed away whatsoever.

And i do agree with what  Dharma Defender have said in the post, HHDL is never a religious leader or political leader for Tibet hence with all respect to HHDL why will He be making such ban which have caused so much pain in the minds of Tibetans Dorje Shugden practitioners?

[WisdomBeing]

With deepest respect to HH the Dalai Lama, I would just like to say – for discussion’s sake – that if HH the Dalai Lama is putting himself forward as this supreme lama and spiritual leader of the Tibetan people, surely HH the Dalai Lama would know how crucial Guru Devotion is in our tradition. By rejecting a practice given to him by his teachers, and publicly saying his Gurus are wrong, he is contradicting the very essence of Guru Devotion, isn’t he?

However, as HH Trijang Rinpoche advises that we should not lose faith in the Dalai Lama, I think we should still abide by that advice despite what may be blatantly in our face.

[lightning]

Well, then we should ignore and burn the 50 Verses of Guru Devotion , Mr Tenzin Gyatso. Maybe CTA should send a MEMO out on this and retract all these books back and reprint them with a new title "50 verses of HH Devotion"

I wonder what the other sect will say to this? 

Haha, on the same vein, I think in Tenzin Gyatso's 50 verses, there would be one additional verse, the 51th verse that says "The Dalai Lama or any other lama with a fancy title can overwrite my own teacher's instructions, and gives me the justification to abandon my own teacher if that higher ranking lama said so, even if i have never met that lama before and i only like him." Sound like that way to me

It's absolutely crazy that people even assume that someone else can override their own teacher just because they met a lama with a higher title and bigger name than their own teachers...even if they have never met this teacher at all. So, you're saying that HHDL whom i have never met is more important than my own teacher who has given me so much care, time, attention, love and material gifts, and most importantly, the authentic Dharma teachings? I dont think so.

Dear Ensapa, Muahahahah....
That is a good and funny reply!

[samayakeeper]

His Holiness the Dalai Lama is the overlord of ten million mandala cycles. For many incarnations has upheld the BuddhaDharma in the barbaric land of snows. Who was predicted by Guru Rinpoche himself as the head of the nation and holder of the dharma. Who is the most famous and most knowledgeable lama on the planet right now. For whom without Tibetan Buddhism would have perished and never reach the world beyond the land of snows. Whose authenticity is recognized the world over by heads of states, heads of major religions, feared by the Chinese Govt and has won the hearts of millions of people should be convincing enough he is to be followed. We should follow such a lama and with all our devotion and practice towards his teachings. No one can rival His Holiness in today's Buddhism. This should say so much.

On the other hand? What did Shugden do? He has seemingly created mischief, sectarianism, according to Zimey Rinpoche's yellow book he has killed off lamas who did not comply to his wishes and marginalized the Gelugs from the other sects? Why should we follow such a being? Actions do speak louder than words.

Why should we follow such a being who cannot compare to His Holiness the Dalai Lama?

I don't doubt the achievements of HHDL but what I cannot fathom is why did HHDL with all his qualities not reject Dorje Shugden much earlier? Surely, HHDL, with all his qualities would have known if Dorje Shugden was a spirit or an enlightened being. Why would HHDL enforce the ban and sacrifice the hard work he did, and goes against his guru, the previous Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, for just one spirit? Is it real guru devotion for me to drop my root guru and run after someone that is more popular? Then after HHDL decided to take rebirth, do I run back to my root guru and tell him, "I'm sorry, can you please take me back"? Maybe I should make a trip to the Vatican and follow another person who is also very famous.