Guru or protector?

[dsiluvu]

His Holiness the Dalai Lama is the overlord of ten million mandala cycles. For many incarnations has upheld the BuddhaDharma in the barbaric land of snows. Who was predicted by Guru Rinpoche himself as the head of the nation and holder of the dharma. Who is the most famous and most knowledgeable lama on the planet right now. For whom without Tibetan Buddhism would have perished and never reach the world beyond the land of snows. Whose authenticity is recognized the world over by heads of states, heads of major religions, feared by the Chinese Govt and has won the hearts of millions of people should be convincing enough he is to be followed. We should follow such a lama and with all our devotion and practice towards his teachings. No one can rival His Holiness in today's Buddhism. This should say so much.

On the other hand? What did Shugden do? He has seemingly created mischief, sectarianism, according to Zimey Rinpoche's yellow book he has killed off lamas who did not comply to his wishes and marginalized the Gelugs from the other sects? Why should we follow such a being? Actions do speak louder than words.

Why should we follow such a being who cannot compare to His Holiness the Dalai Lama?

I find this debate so hilarious. There are so many points that makes no logical sense.

Firstly... just because a person is so famous and has a huge title, it does not mean everyone should follow his point of view or believe in him. That kind of motivation for Dharma practitioners from the beginning is already faulty. We should follow/seek the Guru that best suit us to bring us to Enlightenment...not due to his status and popularity. I might as well follow the Pope, Mother Teressa or Madonna... they are popular and famous and big too.

2. In Buddhism we taught to cherish all sentient beings without any agenda or attachments... including those we do not like/our enemies and that they are our most precious jewels according to the 8 verses. Hence, I would say if I was a Tibetan - the Chinese would be my most precious jewel for me to practice compassion, patience and forgiveness. 

3. In Buddhism one of the basic things we are taught is "impermanence", hence shouldn't we stop being so hung up over our loss, be it our country, our spouse, our fortune? So why are Tibetans not practising this and keep burning themselves? Since everything is impermanent, surely a country is impermanent, surely from the beginning of time we could witness and see the change in history. This is also karma... it is the karmic causes of the Tibetan people as a whole for the lost of their country if we follow laws of cause and effect. Yet again another Buddhist basic teaching and principle.

4. As mentioned by so many already... If we are to follow the 50 stanzas of Guru Devotion then we should go all the way with our guru's instructions, this include His Holiness. How can we be selective towards our Guru's advice? Seems strange. But if your Guru is HHDL, then fine, you can follow his advice and there is no problem with that. But not everyone is His student and have our own Guru's to follow. No one has the right to tell us otherwise or make it a "ruling" - that just goes against "human rights" and is pretty backdated. Thought we were living in the 21st century.

5. If HHDL is Chenrezig which I personally think so also, then why did He not realise Dorje Shugden was wrong from the very beginning and why did He compose all those prayers to Dorje Shugden

Melody of the Unceasing Vajra by the 14th Dalai Lama and with such powerful 1st verse stating who Dorje Shugden is clearly:

Glory of the wisdom, compassion and power of infinite Buddhas
Miraculously powerful protector of Manjusri Tsongkhapa’s Teachings
Arisen as a lord of all wrathful worldly hosts
Come from the abodes of Tushita, Kechara, and so forth!


Was HHDL at that moment not Chenrezig?

6. All the reasons given for the BAN - OK let's take one of it; Dorje Shugden will shorten/harm HHDL life according to Nechung (who in fact is a worldly spirit but that is OK). So Why is HHDL now 77, is alive and still kickin' and well... if He was Chenrezig, nothing can harm a Buddha right, so why even create such a lame reason?

Ah... why don't we all just practice what we believe and follow our own Guru's instruction without imposing and harming others... wouldn't that be more harmonious and more Buddhist?

[Ensapa]

In Tibetan Buddhism, lineage is very important. All the knowledge must be passed down correctly, and Lamas must be able to trace back to the Shakyamuni, to make sure that the scriptures are not made up.

Different gurus/lamas will have different lineages, and many different practices. And because different people are more suitable to certain practice, that's why Shakyamuni has 84000 different types of teachings. What HH Dalai Lama do not teach, it does not mean it is not good, and cannot practice.

Also, when you take up a guru/lama, you need to go 100% with the guru AFTER you have checked him out. So, when he gives you Dorje Shugden, having gone 100%, you will stand firm with the practices from your guru because it is your guru who will give you the enlightenment.

I mean no disrespect to HH Dalai Lama, but who is kinder to me? My guru is kinder to me than HH Dalai Lama because he gave me the Dharma PERSONALLY and guide me PERSONALLY on my spiritual path. Of course I would follow my guru!

It is also because of the controversial that Dorje Shugden practitioners are increasing. May be this "Good cop, Bad cop" strategy is working?

I like what you wrote, but I do feel that I need to add in something extra, that if we allow others to affect or even break our samaya to our teacher, if we allow outside factors to so easily lose faith in our teacher no matter what the reason or excuse is, then how does that help us achieve any attainments in our practice as it is clearly taught that attainments come from the teacher's instructions.

If you dont like Dorje Shugden then dont go to a lama that practices him, but be firm that you are doing this because it is your own decision and you are well informed enough, and you know who Dorje Shugden, his history, his qualities and and you understand fully what is going on, and not because someone else who is not your Guru told you so. Why place your happiness and spiritual progress for the sake of some rumors?

If you choose Dalai Lama as your teacher, then avoiding Dorje Shugden is having Guru devotion, but even if the Dalai Lama is cherenzig, there is no way, and that there will be a limit to how much benefit and help you can derive from HHDL as he is always travelling around and there is barely enough time for the Guru and student to examine each other for serious study and practice.

But in all of HHDL's talks, he never mentions anything that if you other people to not practice Dorje Shugden or if you harm them just so that they stop, you wont get bad karma, and neither does he encourages something like that to happen. From this point, since you do want to follow the Dalai Lama's advice, dont be selective and follow it all the way or add in your own interpretations to it.

[hope rainbow]

Dear  Tenzin Gyatso, I find it preposterous of you to ask some people to brake their Guru samaya on the only ground of YOUR claim that YOUR Guru is superior to other Gurus.
I can only imagine that this is something you posted and did not think seriously about, because it does not reflect well on the person Of TG that I have debated with before on this forum and that is very knowledgeable and well versed in the principles of Buddhism, and to start with on Guru Devotion.

Even the Dalai Lama himself never asked anyone to brake their Guru Samaya.
All he said is that a choice was to be made as to the practice of Buddha Dorje Shugden. A choice with uneasy consequences perhaps, but a choice.

The only person that can take away a practice from me and initiate me into a practice is my Guru, and no one else, not even the Dalai Lama. This does not mean that one Guru is higher than another, it does not mean that my Guru is higher than His Holiness, NO! It means that my I operate devotion towards the being that is my Guru, it is a personal relationship, it is not a corporate ladder kind of thing...
My Guru is the one I chose after investigation, He is the one that never can disappoint me. and my devotion goes to him, or else ALL IS LOST!

[Ensapa]

Dear  Tenzin Gyatso, I find it preposterous of you to ask some people to brake their Guru samaya on the only ground of YOUR claim that YOUR Guru is superior to other Gurus.
I can only imagine that this is something you posted and did not think seriously about, because it does not reflect well on the person Of TG that I have debated with before on this forum and that is very knowledgeable and well versed in the principles of Buddhism, and to start with on Guru Devotion.

Even the Dalai Lama himself never asked anyone to brake their Guru Samaya.
All he said is that a choice was to be made as to the practice of Buddha Dorje Shugden. A choice with uneasy consequences perhaps, but a choice.

The only person that can take away a practice from me and initiate me into a practice is my Guru, and no one else, not even the Dalai Lama. This does not mean that one Guru is higher than another, it does not mean that my Guru is higher than His Holiness, NO! It means that my I operate devotion towards the being that is my Guru, it is a personal relationship, it is not a corporate ladder kind of thing...
My Guru is the one I chose after investigation, He is the one that never can disappoint me. and my devotion goes to him, or else ALL IS LOST!

I would never ever give up my Guru just because someone on the net tells me to give him up due to whatever reasons because the online person has not cared for me the way my Guru has nor do i even know this online person. There is absolutely no basis for me to follow this online person's advice. I'd rather listen to my teacher whom I can check out by myself and I know for sure his advice will benefit me in more ways than one.

I didint practice the Dharma so that I can become more superior than others, nor did I practice Dharma so that I am following exotic Tibetan Lamas and that they will always be right and I'll gain true happiness from it or because Tibetan culture is exotic and Buddhist teachings are exotic in this day and age. Its fine if someone chooses to practice for that reason, but not me.

Therefore I am careful with what input I take in from people. If its from my own Lama, i'd definitely follow and listen to the best of my abilities because how can i abandon someone that has been so kind to me all this time just because some dood from the net or someone somewhere say that my teacher is wrong? how dare they! How dare!! If my teacher is wrong and I should follow them, they better be able to care for me more than my current teacher which i doubt so will happen.

Simply put, there is no reason for us to listen to TG because he is not our Guru neither does he have any qualifications to be one and he does not have the qualities that are described by the 50 verses as a fit spiritual guide. How far can spiritual advice from someone like that take us? When HHDL says it he says it within context and it has meaning but not when other people repeat it minus the context.

[DharmaSpace]

The Dalai Lama created a scenario for a split among the Tibetans, a lot of disharmony and this conflict amongst the tibetans. And instead of the ban turning more and more people off Dorje Shugden it has increased the awareness of the Dorje Shugden and as time goes by more people and monasteries are practicing Dorje Shugden and the number of people engaging in this practice has increased. So the Dorje Shugden ban besides the initial effect of turning people away for Dorje Shugden the net effect now is Dorje Shugden is becoming more and more popular.  So the Dalai Lama is doing an awesome work to promote Dorje Shugden!

[tsangpakarpo]

Dear TG, have you actually read the 50 stanzas on Guru Devotion? If you do then very well you SHOULD know how we should be faithful to our Gurus and the practices that was given to us. So who are you to bad mouth Shugden practitioners when all great lamas like Trijang Rinpoche are practitioners of Dorje Shugden as well?

Although Trijang Rinpoche continues to practice Dorje Shugden, HH Dalai Lama still shows utmost respect to his Guru! To the point, the Dalai Lama said Trijang Rinpoche can practice Dorje Shugden. Why is that? Isn't Dorje Shugden harmful?

Read about it here please.
http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=5993

If Dorje Shugden is a spirit, why can't he be subdued? There are so many people benefiting from Dorje Shugden's practice..read it about it here: http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?category_name=testimonials-letters

There's no need to say much more. Instead of spending so much time trying to put down the practice, why not read more on the website, http://dorjeshugden.com/ to understand better who Dorje Shugden really is. Education/knowledge is vital for a greater understanding and faith. I suppose that's where you're lacking.

[Big Uncle]

His Holiness the Dalai Lama is the overlord of ten million mandala cycles. For many incarnations has upheld the BuddhaDharma in the barbaric land of snows. Who was predicted by Guru Rinpoche himself as the head of the nation and holder of the dharma. Who is the most famous and most knowledgeable lama on the planet right now. For whom without Tibetan Buddhism would have perished and never reach the world beyond the land of snows. Whose authenticity is recognized the world over by heads of states, heads of major religions, feared by the Chinese Govt and has won the hearts of millions of people should be convincing enough he is to be followed. We should follow such a lama and with all our devotion and practice towards his teachings. No one can rival His Holiness in today's Buddhism. This should say so much.

On the other hand? What did Shugden do? He has seemingly created mischief, sectarianism, according to Zimey Rinpoche's yellow book he has killed off lamas who did not comply to his wishes and marginalized the Gelugs from the other sects? Why should we follow such a being? Actions do speak louder than words.

Why should we follow such a being who cannot compare to His Holiness the Dalai Lama?

This is rather interesting thread and an interesting discussion. You know what went through my head? Why can't the Dalai Lama just perform a fire puja ritual and I heard it is called Jinsek, to send this pesky Dorje Shugden spirit to a higher realm or something? If he is so powerful and can upset the whole system and kill Lamas, shouldn't the Dalai Lama do something drastic like that? Well, the truth is he has and failed every time the ritual is done. Dorje Shugden just takes trance in his oracle all the time. So, is the Dalai Lama that powerful? How can he be powerless in subjugating this pesky spirit?

On the other hand, perhaps it is not a very Buddhist thing to kill. The Dalai Lama could subjugate Dorje Shugden and put him under an oath to protect the Gelug tradition in much the same way Guru Rinpoche subjugated Nechung and made him swear an oath to protect the Buddhadharma. Wouldn't that be more effective in harnessing his energies to benefit others? There's so much that the Dalai Lama could do if Dorje Shugden is real really an evil spirit, which of course he is not. The ban benefits no one and I think people all over and just waiting for the ban to be lifted.

[beggar]

His Holiness is not everyone's Guru or even Root teacher students should follow their root teachers instructions explicitly.

LOL. That's like saying Chenresig can't be the guru or capable of being the guru of all sentient beings!

Let's go down this way then, HHDL is the temporal leader of all Tibetans and the Tibetan nation since he was 16 years old. Everyone should follow their leader. He is the undisputed leader as chosen by the regents, Nechung and the Govt of Tibet.

This is very simple.

If you are going to pull the "Guru" card, then why doesn't the Dalai Lama follow the instructions of his OWN Gurus Trijang Rinpoche and Ling Rinpoche, who were very strong followers of Shugden and were very devoted to making the practice spread? Why is it that we must follow the Dalai Lama's instructions all the way, and without question, but okay for the Dalai Lama not to follow the instructions of HIS teacher. Why is it that Guru devotion works one way, only in relations to the Dalai Lama, but doesn't work when we are to follow the instructions of our own teachers. There are thousands of people out there who have received teachings and instructions directly from other teachers and not from the Dalai Lama; why do they have to ditch their teacher's teachings now just to listen to this one instruction from the Dalai Lama?

Now, the second point about Dalai Lama being a leader of all Tibetans: there are two points to this. First, that secular leadership is very different from religious leadership. Being a leader of the people doesn't mean you have to follow his religious beliefs. In that case, all Sakyas, Nyingmas and Kagyus should also all switch over to being Gelug.

Secondly, there are millions of practitioners out there who aren't even Tibetan - like many of us on this forum. So that whole argument falls apart.

[Ensapa]

Actually, going through all the posts made me think of something really funny because TG respects the Dalai Lama but not the Dalai Lama's teachers. How is it that he can have Guru devotion towards the Guru but not the Lineage Gurus? The Guru's knowledge and attainments all come from the Lineage Gurus, so to disregard the lineage Gurus would be the same as disregarding your own teacher.

No matter how great the Lama is, or how high his rank is or whether or not he's the Buddha of 100 million galaxies, he cannot help us much if we're unable to follow his instructions fully and/or be selective about the whole thing, or if we cannot get any direct teachings from the teacher, or if there is no chance for us to be near to the teacher to get tailored advice.

It's not the teacher's fault but it is our own karma that we cannot get near to the teacher and by parting others with the faith of their choice for whatever reason, we just create the karma to be even further away from teachers that we desire to have and teachers that can actually help us with the path. I dont remember even HHDL saying anywhere that we should dissuade others from Dorje Shugden. He just said dont practice if you want to be my student.

Another interesting point to think about is, what is my main motivation of having a fancy teacher? Yes he has a high rank, wonderful, but in what way or how can he help me with my spiritual progress and mental training? Then from there we can see our real motives on why do we get a teacher. That is interesting because it shows us the level of our mind on what we really want in life.

[Positive Change]

My my... preposterous comes to mind... No disrespect to HHDL at all, but regardless of who HHDL is, if one has one's own Guru, it is unthinkable that one should "dump" one's own Guru and pursue another, in this case HHDL. I would be ever so fortunate to have HHDL as my Guru but seeing as that is not the case, nothing HHDL can say or do will make me break my samaya with my own Guru.

If my Guru asks me to propitiate Dorje Shugden, I will... And no one, not even HHDL can break that bond. For any attainments comes from strong unshakable Guru Devotion... with that severed, what point is there as it would be as though we have no Guru and whatever practices we have been given would come to no fruition!

I will listen to my Guru to the very end. No if and buts about it. I am surprised that you would even imply such an action from fellow practitioners? Would you stop devoting yourself to HHDL when he passes? When the next best thing comes along? Even if you did not mean it, you insinuated it and that in itself is just beyond words!

And another thing, all enlightened beings have achieved a state of equality... there is no one enlightened being better than the other. A being like HHDL does not need practitioners like us to follow him merely because he is who he is... He is here from sheer compassion to enable us to accumulate merits and plants seeds of enlightenment in us.

[Ensapa]

My my... preposterous comes to mind... No disrespect to HHDL at all, but regardless of who HHDL is, if one has one's own Guru, it is unthinkable that one should "dump" one's own Guru and pursue another, in this case HHDL. I would be ever so fortunate to have HHDL as my Guru but seeing as that is not the case, nothing HHDL can say or do will make me break my samaya with my own Guru.

If my Guru asks me to propitiate Dorje Shugden, I will... And no one, not even HHDL can break that bond. For any attainments comes from strong unshakable Guru Devotion... with that severed, what point is there as it would be as though we have no Guru and whatever practices we have been given would come to no fruition!

I will listen to my Guru to the very end. No if and buts about it. I am surprised that you would even imply such an action from fellow practitioners? Would you stop devoting yourself to HHDL when he passes? When the next best thing comes along? Even if you did not mean it, you insinuated it and that in itself is just beyond words!

And another thing, all enlightened beings have achieved a state of equality... there is no one enlightened being better than the other. A being like HHDL does not need practitioners like us to follow him merely because he is who he is... He is here from sheer compassion to enable us to accumulate merits and plants seeds of enlightenment in us.

I was thinking, if one day HHDL's power and influence wanes and the next big thing is the Karmapa, and the Karmapa declared that relying on Dorje Shugden is the best way to further one's Dharma practice and to accelerate one's spiritual progress, what would people like TG do? say bye bye to HHDL and hello Karmapa? To me, that does seem to be the most likely outcome of them all. To them, it is not the Lama that is important but the title and the position that the Lama carries is what makes them confident and is what validates their choice in their teacher. HHDL is a very high lama not because of rank or title but because of all the things he sacrificed so that the Tibetans would have Dharma and would be cared for. Nothing wrong with respecting someone like this but to not question him and treat him like some sort of a pope where his advice must be good and cannot be questioned or reasoned out will not result in our release from suffering.

When HHDL is gone, what would happen to his fanatics/crusaders? Will they just follow the next best thing or continue with whatever they have received from HHDL? If they willingly abandon their teachers to be politically correct, i dread what will happen next.

[Vajraprotector]

Personally I think it is obvious of "who to choose" depending on one's circumstances. If one's, Guru is His Holiness (doesn't matter if one's Guru is a world famous lama or just a "simple" monk) then one should always choose one's Lama and not practice Dorje Shugden.

"The Guru is Buddha, the Guru is Dharma, the Guru is also Sangha" (from Lama Chopa). The guru is considered even more compassionate and more potent than the Buddha because we can have a direct relationship with the guru. The guru therefore appears with the yidam and dakini in the Three Roots refuge formulation of the three factors essential for tantric attainments.

However, it is unfair to compare His Holiness who has been around 'for a long time', and a protector who has just arisen 350 years ago. Also,  how can we judge how much has Shugden helped/ contributed as we can't see all his activities. I agree with earlier statements, that the reason His Holiness is even here today with us is because Dorje Shugden got His Holiness out of Tibet safely.

Just to share a thought that occured, Lama Zopa Rinpoche has expressed the wish to “not to have a guru-disciple relationship with anyone who is practicing Shugden," and of course no Shugden practitioners is allowed to teach in any of their centres. So it means that not even Lama Zopa’s precious teachers, Trijang Rinpoche or Lama Yeshe (or their reincarnations) would be allowed to attend Lama Zopa’s teachings and teach in their centres then if they want to follow the rule 'strictly'?

I wonder if there were students who received Shugden initiation from Lama Yeshe & Lama Zopa, and then were banned from attending their centres? Lama Zopa has clearly stated that Lama Yeshe and himself have been practitioners of Shugden for a long time.

[Ensapa]

Personally I think it is obvious of "who to choose" depending on one's circumstances. If one's, Guru is His Holiness (doesn't matter if one's Guru is a world famous lama or just a "simple" monk) then one should always choose one's Lama and not practice Dorje Shugden.

"The Guru is Buddha, the Guru is Dharma, the Guru is also Sangha" (from Lama Chopa). The guru is considered even more compassionate and more potent than the Buddha because we can have a direct relationship with the guru. The guru therefore appears with the yidam and dakini in the Three Roots refuge formulation of the three factors essential for tantric attainments.

However, it is unfair to compare His Holiness who has been around 'for a long time', and a protector who has just arisen 350 years ago. Also,  how can we judge how much has Shugden helped/ contributed as we can't see all his activities. I agree with earlier statements, that the reason His Holiness is even here today with us is because Dorje Shugden got His Holiness out of Tibet safely.

Just to share a thought that occured, Lama Zopa Rinpoche has expressed the wish to “not to have a guru-disciple relationship with anyone who is practicing Shugden," and of course no Shugden practitioners is allowed to teach in any of their centres. So it means that not even Lama Zopa’s precious teachers, Trijang Rinpoche or Lama Yeshe (or their reincarnations) would be allowed to attend Lama Zopa’s teachings and teach in their centres then if they want to follow the rule 'strictly'?

I wonder if there were students who received Shugden initiation from Lama Yeshe & Lama Zopa, and then were banned from attending their centres? Lama Zopa has clearly stated that Lama Yeshe and himself have been practitioners of Shugden for a long time.

I have actually heard that many people who are physically close to HHDL and who have received direct teachings from him and who are his students are usually told to engage in long retreats and there is very little focus on the Dorje Shugden issue for them. HHDL definitely did not ask them to run around and dictate the Dharma practice of others. They would not have time anyway to run around town and dissuade others from doing Dorje Shugden. I have heard Nyigma and Kagyu Lamas doing that, but not the Dalai Lama. It is very important to keep samaya with the Dalai Lama if we have received teachings from him and not do Dorje Shugden but nowhere did he ask people to actually go and destroy the homes of those who practice Dorje Shugden and bad mouth those who do. I think this is an important point that we need to consider: that he did not explicitly tell his disciples to harm Dorje Shugden practitioners.

I have heard that Lama Yeshe's old students who were practicing Dorje Shugden were all evacuated from FPMT. I find it very sad indeed to be ousted by their own spiritual home, the spiritual center of their lama just for holding on to their commitments. Maybe Osel is manifesting a new spiritual home for them so that they will be cared for, and thus breaking away from FPMT to do so? Nobody deserves to survive without a sangha, moreso just for following their commitments and their Lama's instructions.

[Dondrup Shugden]

Is there really a choice of Guru or Protector? In most cases with the Shugdenpas it is the same choice of Guru and Protector rather than Guru or Protector.

There is a lot of debate on this caused by the Ban on Dorje Shugden as HHDL seem to demand that  practitioners do not follow the teachings of their Guru and give up DS, a practice from their Gurus.  Many vajrayana buddhists are not Tibetans, so is the Dalai Lama their Guru. 

Even in the case of Tibetans, is it natural course that their root guru is HHDL.  I really doubt this logic.

[lennin]

Don't forget  who helped HHDL to escape from Tibet to India...