H.H Dalai Lama is not enlightened?

[negra orquida]

Frankly speaking, if a friend makes a sweeping statement like that, knowing full well of my religious beliefs, I would smile, keep quiet, leave the table for a while and then come back to change the topic.  Fortunately I haven't met any friends like that yet (so i'm not speaking from personal experience)... om ah hum!

To me, the point here is not really about "proving" or "justifying" the "englightened-ness" of HHDL.  If someone makes a remark like that, they usually just want to start a "fight" and see how we react negatively (then they turn around to say.. hey isn't Buddhism about love and compassion and not getting angry??). 

So (assuming we don't have the skilful means and enough solid knowledge on the topic) the more we try to explain to such people, the more we will encourage them to say disparaging things about HHDL / Buddha etc.  So if it was me i'd try my best to change the topic or kill the conversation, even if it would make me look like i'm intolerant or over-sensitive.  I think it would be worth it if it makes the friend become more cautious of what they say with regards to Buddhism, if they cherished your friendship enough to change their attitude.

A friend who genuinely wants to know more about HHDL or what enlightened qualities are would ask in a much different way.

BUT i guess if you REALLY need/want to say something/prove a point... try asking your friend (though i wouldn't try this myself for the above reasons... but let me know if you do!):

- are you a boy/girl/in between?
- do you know what being a boy/girl/in between is like?
- do you know how a boy/girl/in between would generally behave?
- are you enlightened/ a lama?
-- No -> then how would you know how enlightened people/lamas should behave?
-- Yes -> why do you say so?

[ratanasutra]

Well.. if we are not the lawyer how should we know which lawyer is good or bad?? Same things go to this if we not fully enlightenment how could we know which lama/guru enlighten? We are just a normal layman people who not even hold any vows or may be refuge vows for people who has taken refuge. How many vows that the lama/monk have to hold, we not even qualify to know their vows, how we are able to judge them??

i guess the people who always judge or criticize other are the people who have nothing to do in life, and they think they know so much and at the end they might criticize even their own guru.

There are quality of guru/lama which you can refer in 50 verses of guru devotion, you can tell the person to check it from that though.

[Benny]

This topic reminds me of how a christian friend of mine used to pull her hair out , when she tried so hard to convince me and other non Christian friends that her Lord Jesus Christ was the Son of God !

That was also one of the main reasons why I was proud of being a Buddhist ! That we are taught not to be so attached with labels ! So what , If HHDL is not enlighten ? The world did not fall in love with him because they believe him to be a boddhisatva Chenrenzig (as most Tibetans do) , they love and respect him for what he stood for and the work he accomplished. His holiness does not use the title "HHDL the enlighten one!".But far from it , he refers to himself as a simple monk.

So why get upset when others disagree whether he is enlighten or not ? This type of issues rest well in area of religious fanaticism. Holy wars are waged by people who says their God is the only God . So , please let us not head in that direction.

[Big Uncle]

I don't think any of us have even the slightest inkling what it means to be enlightened. According to the Kadampa site, enlightenment is defined by...

"Usually the full enlightenment of Buddhahood – an omniscient wisdom whose nature is the permanent cessation of mistaken appearance and whose function is to bestow mental peace on all living beings. Generally, there are three levels of enlightenment: small enlightenment, or the enlightenment of a Hearer; middling enlightenment, or the enlightenment of a Solitary Realizer; and great enlightenment, or the enlightenment of a Buddha, also known as ‘Buddhahood’. An enlightenment is a liberation and a true cessation."

So, how do you measure these qualities in the Dalai Lama or anyone else? Since, we don't have the 'eye' to observe these in a Lama, we rely upon the observation of other Lamas who are known to be attained and are therefore, reliable observers. Since many Lamas observe that the Dalai Lama is attained, he must be attained through indirect observation. There are many other signs of his spiritual accomplishments as well as his perfect control of his death and rebirth amongst many other signs. The truth of the matter, we choose to see what we want to see. Our judgement often colored by our own expectations and limitations. However, this can be changed by relying on reliable sources and the study of the Dharma. Ultimately, it is not how we view the Dalai Lama but how we regard our own Lama and our own practice in itself.

[Jessie Fong]

I concur that you need not go into a song and dance if someone tells you that HHDL is not an enlightended being (or of other high lamas for that matter) - after all, he/she is entitled to her own opinion.  It would be better not to encourage further talk on this and direct the conversation to other general topics.

NO need to get upset, irritated, or what not.  I would say, to each his own.  Do not retaliate with anything negative about your friend's religion, church or any of her religious beliefs.

[bambi]

I understand that it is not easy to reply people who have deluded minds. No matter how one try to explain, they will always come up with an excuse to debate even further. There is no end. Its the same as people asking us why we believe in Buddhism so much. They can't grasp the truth in the teachings. But those who are Buddhists, we can say that, if HHDL is not Enlightened, there will be no praise for Him from esteemed High Lamas who compose praises that says HHDL IS Avalokiteshvara.

Manjushri, I believe you answer is one of the best ways to answers the non believers. There are people who will argue to the very last breath of his/her life to say that they are right and you are wrong. Whether HHDL is Enlightened or not, we as Buddhists know that and we believe in that. Try changing the topic to stop them from creating more negative thoughts and negative karma from bad speech.

As said by Lama Yeshe in a teaching.

Or you can tell them Buddha said so : 

The kind Guru Shakyamuni Buddha, out of his great compassion, descended to this world of Dzambu in the Arya land of India for the sole purpose of bringing benefit and happiness to migratory beings by leading us to liberation and full enlightenment.

It is said in The White Lotus Sutra:

At one time when the Buddha was residing in Milk-Plant Park, he turned to face the north and smiled. Five rays of light issued from the curled hair between his eyebrows. When the bodhisattva Meaningful to Behold asked why, the Buddha replied, “O son of the Mahayana type, there is a land in the north known as the Land of Snow where the Buddhas of the three times have not yet put their holy feet. However, in the future, the holy Dharma will spread and flourish there like the rising sun and all the living beings there will be liberated by Lord Avalokiteshvara, who once made the following prayer:

May I liberate all sentient beings in the Land of Snow, who are difficult to subdue. May I subdue them. May I lead the sentient beings in that outlying barbarous country [Tibet] on the path to liberation and full enlightenment. May even that barbarous country become a field that is subdued by me. May all the holy Dharma taught by all the Tathagatas be spread and flourish for a long time in that country. May the sentient beings there enjoy the holy Dharma by hearing the name of the Triple Gem, going for refuge and achieving the bodies of happy migratory beings.”

The bodhisattva Meaningful to Behold, to whom Guru Shakyamuni Buddha predicted the spread of Dharma in Tibet, saying, “In the future when my teaching has degenerated in India, the sentient beings in the Land of Snow in the north will be the objects to be subdued by you, the bodhisattva,” and the Compassion Buddha who made all those prayers and performed extensive benefit illuminating with the light of Dharma, is none other than the present Dalai Lama.

In conclusion, until we remove the cause of suffering, which is within us, the wrong concepts, the delusions and their imprints left on our mental continuum, those negative imprints will give rise to delusions, which motivate karma, then create the suffering of samsara. We need to develop wisdom, analyzing the spiritual path and then practice it.

[Positive Change]

It is actually quite amazing how some people can come to such conclusions based on their little understanding of a state, in this case an enlightened being. Should we not conclude only when we have basis or at least enough understanding of a particular topic? If not, it is mere baseless assumptions!

No disrespect intended, but on a very basic level, if one were to view HHDL as a mere Buddhist monk who teaches the Dharma, what are the results HHDL has shown? Look at the accomplishments HHDL has achieved not only on the world stage but in terms of the sheer number of students and devotees that flock to see HHDL at every teaching.

If this alone is not a sign of an extraordinary being, what is? I am sure there are numerous accounts of HHDL's miraculous abilities which HHDL's close attendants could share but possible cannot purely because of HHDL's humility and compassion. However this account should blow anyone's socks off.

I recall hearing this story whereby, when HHDL was just two years old, some travelling monks found him. The tyke greeted them in the monks’ own language even though he had no reason to know it and recognized the old men as long-lost friends. HHDL at the age of two “knew all about” his previous life.

Now, it seems to me that from any objective viewpoint this is, quite simply, a miracle. Perhaps not divine if you have a certain denominational definition of the divine, but certainly a supernatural phenomena no more implausible from an atheist perspective than parting the Red Sea or turning water into wine.

[dsiluvu]

You will just have to tell your friend that you are practising one of the stanzas of "Guru Devotion" and perhaps show him this verse... and politely ask him/her not to disrespect your beliefs as you respect his and would not pass such judgement...

Verse No.3
Three times each day with supreme faith you must show the respect you have for your guru who teaches you (the Tantric path), by pressing your palms together, offering a mandala as well as flowers and prostrating (touching) your head to his feet.

As a disciple you must regard your Guru as an Enlightened Being. Even if from his own point of view he is not Enlightened and you, his disciple, have gained Buddhahood before him, you must still show him respect and pay homage. For instance, Maitreya, the fifth and next Buddha of the thousand of this world age, who now presides over Tusita Buddha-field, became Enlightened before his Guru, Sakyamuni Buddha. To demonstrate respect for his Guru, Maitreya has a stupa or reliquary monument on his forehead. Likewise Avalokitesvara, the incarnation of the compassion of all the Buddhas, is crowned in his eleven-headed aspect with the head of his Guru, Amitabha Buddha, the one who presides over Sukhavati Buddha-field.

This learning from a Guru should not be like killing a deer to extract its musk and then discarding its corpse. Even after attaining Enlightenment you must still continue to honor your Guru who made all your achievements possible.

At the end of the day... really there is no point getting upset/frustrated/angry at your friend or anyone because that it self is an EXPECTATION on your part that people MUST believe you which becomes a part of ATTACHMENT. Hence, it is better to just LET GO, SMILE, AGREE TO DISAGREE and SHOW CHENREZIG through your PRACTICE

[biggyboy]

Whether HHDL is enlightened or not...let's set this aside for now.  First and foremost, let's all look around us.  Does our outlook or appearance able to indicate and tell others whether we are qualified professionals (irrespective of what field) that we are qualified as?  Does anyone walk around with their certificates hanging on their neck to tell the whole wide world?  Be frank, we can't even deduce the people that we see on the streets are qualified as!!!  So, how are we to qualify HHDL is not enlightened?  We have no qualifications or the rights to judge HHDL who he is.  See the successful results that HHDL has brought onto people, dharma has flourished so much now...thousands of people from all over the world would flock to his teachings where ever he goes to.

If your friend's views of an enlightened being is someone who can float and meditate on clouds, then you can't win. Maybe you can doctor a picture and show it to him. Hehe.

Please allow me to add instead of "doctoring" a picture, you can actually shared with your friend that no enlightened being or Lama has a light bulb attached to him/her to show that he is enlightened.  Likewise, there's no "meter" to carry around to check that HHDL / any Lama is enlightened (I wish we have...  ). Does your friend has? Hmmmm.... 

[Vajraprotector]

I am of the same opinion as Manjushri (the person who started this post) and I think there is no way to know for sure unless we are enlightened ourselves!

One can refer to their biography for reference, or what I have always used as examples are what great Lamas said, but again for people who don't believe, they can choose to dismiss that as well.

The standard biography of the Second Dalai Lama (started by Yangpa Chojey in 1530) begins with the legend of Avalokiteshvara, the Buddha of Compassion, of whom the Dalai Lamas are said to be emanations.  He mentioned how in ancient times Avalokiteshvara vowed to take care of Tibet; how he (Avalokiteshvara) incarnated as various kings in order to bring the enlightenment teachings to the country; and also “in the middle he came as Lama Drop to complete the work of Jowo Atisha; and finally as Gyalwa Gendun Drup (the First Dalai Lama0 he made firm the doctrines of Lama Tsongkhapa”.

Atisha once said in reply to his disciple, Ngok Lotsawa:
“Well, Ngok, as you know, Lama Drom is an incarnation of Avalokiteshvara, the Buddha of Compassion, so make a symbolic offering of the universe to him…”

Atisha then relates to Ngok Lotsawa the 36 “previous lives of Lama Drom”, each beginning with “…as you know, Lama Drom is an incarnation of Avalokiteshvara”. These 36 are embodied in chapter twenty-three of the Kadampa classic Father Dharmas Son Dharmas (Tib., Pha-chos-bu-chos).

During his lifetime the First Dalai Lama was regarded as being the reincarnation of Lama Drom. Thus the connection of His Holiness being an emanation of Avalokiteshvara was linked to the literature mentioned above as spoken by Atisha.

You can also relate what was spoken by Dagpo Rinpoche about Trijang Rinpoche and His Holiness (as Avalokiteshvara) working together to bring Buddhadharma to many in this thread on this forum:

Read what Dagpo Rinpoche says about Trijang Dorje Chang,
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1985.0

Personally, the easiest way to judge whether a person is enlightened or not is to look at the results of activities. If their being somewhere and doing something has brought tremendous benefits and Buddhadharma to many, then their 'job' is the same as the enlightened ones.