FACE IT: Shugden's practice is dying already

[Zach]

Yawn...Id be more concerned with what happens when the Dalai lama dies Tenzin.

Don't be worried. There will be hundreds of Geshes, Tulkus, monks and Scholars from Ganden, Sera and Drephung who will carry on HHDL's instructions. The Tibetan nation will carry on HHDL's instructions. Six million and countless hundreds of thousands of non-Tibetan practitioners around the world will carry on HHDL's instructions. The Nyingmapa, Sakya and kagyu will carry on and it will be without Shugden. His Holiness is the teacher of hundreds of scholars and high incarnations and they will carry on his works.

Who will carry on after Geshe Kelsang passes? There is no more work, protests and law suits against HHDL anymore already.

Lets see how loyal they stay to him when he isn't around anymore. Geshe kelsang has already retired by the way.

[Tenzin Gyatso]

Yawn...Id be more concerned with what happens when the Dalai lama dies Tenzin.

Don't be worried. There will be hundreds of Geshes, Tulkus, monks and Scholars from Ganden, Sera and Drephung who will carry on HHDL's instructions. The Tibetan nation will carry on HHDL's instructions. Six million and countless hundreds of thousands of non-Tibetan practitioners around the world will carry on HHDL's instructions. The Nyingmapa, Sakya and kagyu will carry on and it will be without Shugden. His Holiness is the teacher of hundreds of scholars and high incarnations and they will carry on his works.

Who will carry on after Geshe Kelsang passes? There is no more work, protests and law suits against HHDL anymore already.

Lets see how loyal they stay to him when he isn't around anymore. Geshe kelsang has already retired by the way.

Everyone's been pretty loyal since the time of His Holiness the Great 5th. I think they will remain loyal.
I am in the know about Geshe Kelsang's retirement, after he has passed, who takes over? NKT might be in trouble. 

[dsdisciple]

TG (you are not the only one and probably won't be the last).

It is very clear from some responses on this site from time-to-time contributors will hear what they want to hear and miss the very clear signs of HHDL speeches? (subtleties of his speech - question marks prefaced at the end of his DS rehtoric). For example a speech about the development of Shar Gaden / Serpom.

HHDL clearly says that DS practioners will have a bad result (not exact words) but then in the next breath he said If these new monasteries have the karma to grow big??? (again not exact words). An indication to DS Lamas and practitioners to preserve this lineage we must all do our part - our ACTIONS - WORDS - SUPPORT ALL THEY WAY - CLEAN SAMAYA.

So what is HHDL saying when their are so many irregularities??? We should at the very least respect our gurus other peoples gurus and lineages.

I humbly request you follow HHDL advice? Makes me wonder why you participate on this forum...It is crystal clear.

You want to Discredit - Demean - Belittle DS Monks their Practices / Lineages...Are you not concerned for yourself? If attained masters can reincarnate back? how is it possible that we low level practitioners can attain anything higher without putting some teachings into practice.

Karma doesn't discriminate even if you are a Buddha in human form, A Buddha also has the karma of a human body and will die eventually. Buddha Shakyamuni died so what makes you think you will not also...If you did believe in the teachings of the Buddha and in the law of Karma you would NOT act in such a disrespectful way to people or persons with a different point of view to yourself.

xo

[dsiluvu]

TG's topic of debate clearly has no basis or logic.

First of all how can you measure the attainments of someone by just looking at how influential they are? If this is so I guess Madonna, Obama, the Popoe and all the celebrities and hollywood stars have attainments too! Some of them are even more popular with more followers then HHDL. That is so ridiculous and very silly to even suggest!

Your arguments has no basis as Ensapa and Rainbow has clearly highlighted on each points you made. It will be very difficult for anyone to believe your arguments because it just doesn't hold any water. Sorry.

There is really no point even debating because it clearly shows how small your perception is and ignorance is pretty bliss. You are quite happy believing what you believe.. so whatever logic we present to you will fall on death ears. well

Only karma can be the judge, whether or not you are whatever Bodhisattva stage. Lets not condemned any Lamas or anyone in robes... it is part of our Buddhist vows, le's not accumulate more negative karma which will result to even sadder consequences for your Tibetans. Tibet is gone... face the facts and move on.  Dharma is the only real thing that last, why be so attached to a country when your next life you could probably come back as a China man.

And I am certain that many other high Lamas like Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche, Zong Rinpoche, Geshe Kelsang etc etc are also highly attained. Let's just follow our Guru's instructions and have PEACE beb and starts with YOU!

[lotus1]

Bravo Ensapa, Positive Change and all for the facts.

Dear TG, personally, I encourage you to visit all the monasteries around the world that practices Lord Dorje Shugden. If you do not know which are the monasteries, please check from this forum or the website : http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?category_name=monastery-with-dorje-shugden. Have a look with your own eyes to check out on the reality of what’s happening.

I have the merits to visit one of them, i.e. Shar Gaden early this year. I can see with my own eyes that the Shar Gaden is expanding and they are building a new hospital now. Parents are still sending their children to study and be a monk there. Domo Geshe Rinpoche is there too. Shar Gaden is also sponsoring for the renovation of Trijang Rinpoche & Zong Rinpoche’s Stupa in Gaden. If the practice is dying, I do not think that it will have that kind of growth that I can see with my own eyes.

You can also see that the video of Serpom Monastery Inauguration Ceremony early this year here: http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=12844. Inauguration of Jangchup Lamrim Temple, Lumbini, Nepal : http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=6817. There are also recent articles and photos for Sampheling Monastery, Chatreng, etc.

Be open and have a look at what's happening around the world and you will have a better idea on the real picture.

[Zach]

Yawn...Id be more concerned with what happens when the Dalai lama dies Tenzin.

Don't be worried. There will be hundreds of Geshes, Tulkus, monks and Scholars from Ganden, Sera and Drephung who will carry on HHDL's instructions. The Tibetan nation will carry on HHDL's instructions. Six million and countless hundreds of thousands of non-Tibetan practitioners around the world will carry on HHDL's instructions. The Nyingmapa, Sakya and kagyu will carry on and it will be without Shugden. His Holiness is the teacher of hundreds of scholars and high incarnations and they will carry on his works.

Who will carry on after Geshe Kelsang passes? There is no more work, protests and law suits against HHDL anymore already.

Lets see how loyal they stay to him when he isn't around anymore. Geshe kelsang has already retired by the way.

Everyone's been pretty loyal since the time of His Holiness the Great 5th. I think they will remain loyal.
I am in the know about Geshe Kelsang's retirement, after he has passed, who takes over? NKT might be in trouble. 

I don't think you understand Tenzin, Geshe Kelsang doesn't do day to day running he's retired, Its being run by the General and Deputy Spiritual directors whom are subject to 4 year elected terms.

[Zach]

Yawn...Id be more concerned with what happens when the Dalai lama dies Tenzin.

Don't be worried. There will be hundreds of Geshes, Tulkus, monks and Scholars from Ganden, Sera and Drephung who will carry on HHDL's instructions. The Tibetan nation will carry on HHDL's instructions. Six million and countless hundreds of thousands of non-Tibetan practitioners around the world will carry on HHDL's instructions. The Nyingmapa, Sakya and kagyu will carry on and it will be without Shugden. His Holiness is the teacher of hundreds of scholars and high incarnations and they will carry on his works.

Who will carry on after Geshe Kelsang passes? There is no more work, protests and law suits against HHDL anymore already.

Lets see how loyal they stay to him when he isn't around anymore. Geshe kelsang has already retired by the way.

Everyone's been pretty loyal since the time of His Holiness the Great 5th. I think they will remain loyal.
I am in the know about Geshe Kelsang's retirement, after he has passed, who takes over? NKT might be in trouble. 

I don't think you understand Tenzin, Geshe Kelsang doesn't do day to day running he's retired, Its being run by the General and Deputy Spiritual directors whom are subject to 4 year elected terms.

So there's no problem...

[Tenzin Gyatso]

Yawn...Id be more concerned with what happens when the Dalai lama dies Tenzin.

Don't be worried. There will be hundreds of Geshes, Tulkus, monks and Scholars from Ganden, Sera and Drephung who will carry on HHDL's instructions. The Tibetan nation will carry on HHDL's instructions. Six million and countless hundreds of thousands of non-Tibetan practitioners around the world will carry on HHDL's instructions. The Nyingmapa, Sakya and kagyu will carry on and it will be without Shugden. His Holiness is the teacher of hundreds of scholars and high incarnations and they will carry on his works.

Who will carry on after Geshe Kelsang passes? There is no more work, protests and law suits against HHDL anymore already.

Lets see how loyal they stay to him when he isn't around anymore. Geshe kelsang has already retired by the way.

Everyone's been pretty loyal since the time of His Holiness the Great 5th. I think they will remain loyal.
I am in the know about Geshe Kelsang's retirement, after he has passed, who takes over? NKT might be in trouble. 

I don't think you understand Tenzin, Geshe Kelsang doesn't do day to day running he's retired, Its being run by the General and Deputy Spiritual directors whom are subject to 4 year elected terms.

So there's no problem...

There's more to the day to day running for a huge centre. It's the spiritual force/rock/inspiration behind it all. When that is gone. It's difficult. I understand what you are trying to say though. I am talking about the wellspring from whence all arose in NKT would be Geshe-la. 

Same in the case of HHDL except, His Holiness has thousands of great sangha behind him and after he is gone, they will continue the legacy as they have since the inception of Dalai Lamas as rulers of Tibet.
 
If Geshe Kelsang would 'join' up with HHDL, then NKT would have vast support from qualified sangha with full training according to Monastic training.  The only issue standing in the way is Shugden spirit. Shugden is not important at all. Being harmonious with the monasteries, HHDL, the sangha and the vast practitioners of Buddhism is much more important. Give up Shugden's unnecessary worship and NKT would have better chance of survival way into the future with backing of all the spiritual communities blessed by HHDL. I would like to see NKT survive. As I said before, Geshe-La monastic training is beyond repute, but what brought Geshe-la down is Shugden. 

[Tenzin Gyatso]

From the Shugden camp, the truth is there is nothing happening anymore. Everything is basically died or at a standstill. Shugden cannot win over what is correct.

All the monasteries have been purified of Shugden's influence and nothing can oppose HHDL's compassionate and brave stance. I am sure it was no easy task to remove the Shugden influence. But HHDL recieves no benefits for himself by doing this. No money, no reputation and therefore it must be for the welfare of the general practitioners. I still say Kalarupa is not dead, not ineffective, and should be the focussed practice of Gelugs as a protector. Read up on Kalarupa's qualities, nature and function especially in relations to one of the three main protectors of the Lam Rim and Lam Rim lineage. Understand Kalarupa better.

He is not only the protector of the Gelug lineage, Lam Rim but also the protector of the Yamantaka tantras. If you engage in Yamantaka practice, Kalarupa comes as a practice automatically as he is very important for removing obstacles on both the outer and inner levels. Inner being attachment to subtle grasping of the I which is the root cause of samsara. Kalarupa is no other than Yamantaka in a protective form. I was explained this by a Geshe at the Tibetan Library. It blew my mind away and thought to share it here.   

It's not too late to take heed and adopt Kalarupa.

[Bodhisattva.wade]

Dear Tenzin Gyatso,

Dorje Shugden is alive and well in the United States of America and is not going away anytime soon. 

You shouldn't judge other people's dharma practice; otherwise you risk breaking your own commitments to the guru.

Although I am a teacher in the New Kadampa Tradition, as a Duramgama Bodhisattva, I am a firm believer in Rime.

We are all on the same path to enlightenment; a single path with a plurality of aspects.

You should be encouraging people to practice more dharma, not less.

Your remarks are quite disparaging; a seeming result of your own attachment.

Question your own thoughts and examine your own mind.

I support you in your practice of Yamantaka and Kalarupa.

I only ask that you afford us Shugdenpa the same courtesy.

[JD]

May we all rejoice in the holy dharma and precious teachings of the masters in all our lives!

TG, thoughts, words and actions have a serious impact on karma. Please consider your words and how you post with extreme care always. Samsara is rich in deceptions, delusions and confusion everywhere. Nothing is as it seems - investigate glory/fame/power, look hard and make sure of the truth.

People set themselves on fire, people beat and get beatings, worse things happen, everywhere all the time there is horrific suffering, so that their suffering is not meaningless, we have a duty to learn as much wisdom as possible. Practice only pure speech whenever you refer to the Buddhas, all precious Gurus and all holy beings. To do otherwise is at your peril.

Please meditate on this, while you might feel anger rising at first, but I hope any resistance is followed swiftly with clarity. I offer you this advice with love.

May the doctrine of Je Tsongkapa spread through the worlds in all directions and bring the fullest benefit to every being in accordance with their capacities!

[Tenzin Gyatso]

Dear Tenzin Gyatso,

Dorje Shugden is alive and well in the United States of America and is not going away anytime soon. 

You shouldn't judge other people's dharma practice; otherwise you risk breaking your own commitments to the guru.

Although I am a teacher in the New Kadampa Tradition, as a Duramgama Bodhisattva, I am a firm believer in Rime.

We are all on the same path to enlightenment; a single path with a plurality of aspects.

You should be encouraging people to practice more dharma, not less.

Your remarks are quite disparaging; a seeming result of your own attachment.

Question your own thoughts and examine your own mind.

I support you in your practice of Yamantaka and Kalarupa.

I only ask that you afford us Shugdenpa the same courtesy.

Dear BW,

Thanks for your introduction.
I support all dharma practice, but Shugden spirit is not Dharma practice. Discouraging involvement with Shugden spirit does not damage my commitments to my teacher. I agree with my teacher when he warns us against this spirit.

I have disparaged no one. I have disparaged no Dharma. I have spoken against the Shugden spirit. I do so because I want the Dharma to not be tainted.

[dondrup]

Dear Tenzin Gyatso,

Dorje Shugden is alive and well in the United States of America and is not going away anytime soon. 

You shouldn't judge other people's dharma practice; otherwise you risk breaking your own commitments to the guru.

Although I am a teacher in the New Kadampa Tradition, as a Duramgama Bodhisattva, I am a firm believer in Rime.

We are all on the same path to enlightenment; a single path with a plurality of aspects.

You should be encouraging people to practice more dharma, not less.

Your remarks are quite disparaging; a seeming result of your own attachment.

Question your own thoughts and examine your own mind.

I support you in your practice of Yamantaka and Kalarupa.

I only ask that you afford us Shugdenpa the same courtesy.

Dear BW,

Thanks for your introduction.
I support all dharma practice, but Shugden spirit is not Dharma practice. Discouraging involvement with Shugden spirit does not damage my commitments to my teacher. I agree with my teacher when he warns us against this spirit.

I have disparaged no one. I have disparaged no Dharma. I have spoken against the Shugden spirit. I do so because I want the Dharma to not be tainted.

Dear Tenzin Gyatso

Dorje Shugden is Buddha Manjushri.  How can Dharma be tainted by Dorje Shugden practice?  Can Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche be wrong?  Can Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche be wrong?  Can all the Gelugpa lineage lamas be wrong about Dorje Shugden?  Even His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama had propitiated Dorje Shugden before!  It is HH Dalai Lama alone against his tutor Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and all the Gelugpa lineage masters.  Whom do you think is right?

Wouldn’t HH Dalai Lama be afraid of very heavy negative karma by breaking samayas, creating schisms, disparaging Buddha Dorje Shugden, creating great amount of suffering for Shugden practitioners, causing disrepute to Dharma etc.?  Of course HH Dalai Lama realized the consequences of these negative actions!  HH Dalai Lama’s actions seem to contradict with the job functions of a Buddha i.e. to benefit all sentient beings!  How could HH Dalai Lama have done all these wrongs? Surely he had done all these for a higher and greater purpose!  Appearances are deceptive!

All sentient beings affected by the ban on Dorje Shugden must already have had the karma to experience the obstacles and sufferings caused by the ban.  HH Dalai Lama is an emanation of Chenrezig, a Buddha.  HH Dalai Lama has the clairvoyance to know that.  HH Dalai Lama definitely has a higher motivation, a bigger picture of spreading Dorje Shugden practices far and wide through the ban.

Many contributors of this forum in this post and many other prior posts had proven you wrong time and again with strong, valid, logical facts and reasons against your stance against Dorje Shugden.  It is time for you to accept defeat and offer victory to others.  Is it not time for you to rest your case? 

HH Dalai Lama cannot be wrong because he is an emanation of Buddha Chenrezig.   HH Dalai Lama appears to be wrong.  Can you afford to be wrong and continue to speak against Dorje Shugden?  What happen if later when the ban is lifted, when the truth is revealed, you realise that you have been completely wrong about Dorje Shugden? 

We respect your devotion to HH Dalai Lama.  We respect your beliefs.  Please respect others’ beliefs.  Please respect Dorje Shugden practitioners.  Aren’t we all in the same Gelugpa family?

[Thom]

I find the justifications presented aimless and without merit to continue to rationalize the activities of this dalia, lama are as insane and pointless as his words are to justify his continued existence as any kind of leader whatsoever. Whilst the Tibetans may continue to cling to his image as meaningful. I find this idea of a Big Picture completely ludicrous and demeaning to any rational thinking person. Buddhism is based upon logic and common sense. Not a juxtaposition for inmates in a lunatic asylum. However, I do think it possible, he is perfect mirror for the corruption of our times and his relationship to one of the most corrupt governments in the world and the admiration he has garnered as a tool for the CIA is actually perfect in it's presentation. I find the Big Picture will be the final and complete comprehension that this dalia lama will be recognized as one of history's better ruses, as the truth is his historical predecessor had the Wisdom Buddha Drakpa Gylatshen murdered in order to seize complete control the Tibetans and maintained the population as a pool for slave labor and treated no better than chattel.This Big Picture idea is ludicrous. My Big Picture is one that has absolute pity for this pawn of the Eight Ruling Families for the last 400 years.
I do feel sorry for this man and wish him all the best in his next lifetime. He as we all do , deserves our pity and hope he recovers from the Three Poisons and emanates loving kindness for all concerned instead of the vile and venom he spews with his lies about Dorje Shugden and his true Devotees.
The Buddha never supported Deception as a method to assist the Sentient Beings on the path to enlightenment~~May Tenzin Gyatso Norbu live a long life to reach clarity for his actions and words
 I have withdrawn my energy from this schism, as I believe the more input we give this ruse is as ludicrous as two moons circling the earth.
 The only solution is Loving Kindness~~ All the rest is delusion and insanity~~May Love Prevail and the Suffering Cease All Around the World of Sentient Beings!~!

.

[Ensapa]

Dear BW,

Thanks for your introduction.
I support all dharma practice, but Shugden spirit is not Dharma practice. Discouraging involvement with Shugden spirit does not damage my commitments to my teacher. I agree with my teacher when he warns us against this spirit.

I have disparaged no one. I have disparaged no Dharma. I have spoken against the Shugden spirit. I do so because I want the Dharma to not be tainted.

By promoting hate and negativity about Dorje Shugden, you already are tainting your own mind with hate. The time that it took you to write the many posts you made here can be used to study Nagajurna's works instead, which are more beneficial and will give your more time for your Dharma practice as your posts do not contain enough facts to back up your claims and everyone knows.

Not to be rude, but in my many years of studying the Dharma, I have not found one passage or sentence that talks about being a crusader to worry about the Dharma practice of others and worry about what they are practicing and whether or not they are right or wrong and that we get merits for discouraging and damaging them in every way possible until they give up whatever it is that they are doing.

Why do you think the CTA leaves many "cults" alone? Why do you think Buddhists rarely do anything about them and nobody storms into a cult center and burn the whole place down? If people have the karma to be with a certain teacher or practice, they just do and to discourage them to do so would be to discourage and disconnect them from their spiritual connection. How in any way that it is Dharma?!

Im saying all this, that is even if Dorje Shugden is a spirit as you have said, even if he is i dont think you have any business in discouraging others to do so, neither does anyone else, because Dharma practice varies from individual and nobody really has any right to tell one person or the other that their Dharma practice is wrong and that they should stop or else there will be no salvation.

Being disrespectful to others will only garner you more negativities and obstacles to Dharma practice.