Another *rather* Interesting conversation on Facebook

[harrynephew]

As the whole world of Tibetan Buddhism and especially the Nyingmapas celebrate the enthronement of their new spiritual leader, HH Taklung Tsetrul Rinpoche had an audience with HHDL on this occasion on the 4 June 2012.

I found this interesting string of chat and debate between a Nyingma Tulku and another FB user. I find it quite interesting as both parties are trying to make a point to each other but each does not have enough info or maybe they are just wanting to get their point across in a rush.

Anyways, I've posted here to share to let everyone know how much the outside world perceive the entire ban.

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FB User: so the head of Nyingma is taking orders from this Gelug tulku?

Nyingma Tulku: No, rinpoche dont have to take orders, its a tradition dat the new elected head will have a audience with His Holiness Dalai, since he is the spritual Head of Tibetan Buddhism....

FB User: OK fine. I just don't want to see this Gelugi takes advantage over the Nyingmapas and play his power game.

Nyingma Tulku: hey dun think this way....in old times it has been somethin like dis, but dis days every sect is same.

FB User: we all know uncle dalai is a politician. We have to be very very careful.

FB User: we don't want something like the karmapa schism and dorj shug things happen to nyingmapas.... u know who is behind these mess

FB User: May the Lotus Born Guru bless the Nyingma lineage for it to be free from conflict and benefit all beings

Nyingma Tulku: if u have met him, i bet u will never say like dis, btw he has already resigned from the exile goverment post, now he is just the head of spritual tibetan buddhism.....

FB User: You mean he is the head of Nyingma plus gelug plus kagyu plus sakya plus jonang? seriously?

Nyingma Tulku: HH Dalai Lama is the one who stoped Dorji Shugden....n the one who is supporting DS is the Chinese Goverment, they are doing it secretly...

Nyingma Tulku: actually he is the head of Gelug, but all the other head of sects consider him the head of Tibetan Buddhism....

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[Zach]

There so much confusion these days.

[Klein]

Dear Harrynephew,

Thanks for the post. I think people in general are pretty light eared. They are too busy with so many things in their lives and take precedence of matters like this. So they only know bits and pieces of what's going on. That's why it is very important to saturate the public with the truth about Dorje Shudgen. A few methods i've used are as follow:

1. Print as many copies of Dorje Shugden's comic book from here http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?page_id=9832/ and give them away to friends and Buddhist associations.


2. Print pamphlets from here http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=3577 and give them away to friends and Buddhist associations.

With knowledge, more people will help support the lifting of the ban of Dorje Shugden's practice. This is a harmonious method to stopping the ill treatment of Tibetan Shudgen practioners by CTA.

[Positive Change]

Dear Harrynephew,

Thanks for the post. I think people in general are pretty light eared. They are too busy with so many things in their lives and take precedence of matters like this. So they only know bits and pieces of what's going on. That's why it is very important to saturate the public with the truth about Dorje Shudgen. A few methods i've used are as follow:

1. Print as many copies of Dorje Shugden's comic book from here http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?page_id=9832/ and give them away to friends and Buddhist associations.


2. Print pamphlets from here http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=3577 and give them away to friends and Buddhist associations.

With knowledge, more people will help support the lifting of the ban of Dorje Shugden's practice. This is a harmonious method to stopping the ill treatment of Tibetan Shudgen practioners by CTA.

I agree with you Klien. Some people will believe anything... kinda like Chicken Licken and the Sky Falling Down. Anyway... its a great idea to print what you mentioned here as I too find it helps.

Best way to combat ignorance is education. The time had come to wield the wisdom sword as conventional butt heading is truly getting us no where.

If one truly wants to "free" Tibet, it is through removing the blinkers... Come on CTA, do something we can all be proud of!

[michaela]

This conversation looks similar to what we have in this forum  . 

[harrynephew]

Thank you Positive Change and Klein for your suggestions and I will definitely forward these to them to help them understand. It is good to know that Social Media now is making it easier for us to reach out to more people and at the same time see how they interact with each other to understand their level of understanding regarding the entire ban. Where they come from, information is scarce and at most times it just doesn't sound right as information is usually misinterpreted and presented on the side of the ban.

WE want CHANGE, I want this CHANGE, to change people's perspectives to be able to take things on an optimistic level and make it worth while for everyone who does this sublime practice to obtain every possible result and in the nd reap the fruits of this practice to be able to set themselves steadfast on the road towards enlightenment.

I was just thinking instead of posting it on their walls, will just send them in their FB e-mails. save them the face thingy.

[vajrastorm]

Thank you, HarryNephew. I agree that this conversation shows that the outside world has a rather superficial view of the Shugden ban and controversy, based on inadequate and incomplete information. Here, in this Facebook conversation, the Dalai Lama is perceived as a consummate politician and playing  a power game, for instance, in regard to the "Karmapa schism and the Dorje Shugden things". There is a 'fear' and a 'hope' expressed here that their own lineage will be "free of conflict".

Nonetheless, there is a sharp observation made that the Dalai Lama "is the one who stopped Dorje Shugden and the one who is supporting Dorje Shugden is the Chinese Government".

Yes, we need to educate the outside world about who Shugden is and about His story and His practice, via this website and via the dissemination of DS brochures, DS comics and the like. 

[Big Uncle]

As the whole world of Tibetan Buddhism and especially the Nyingmapas celebrate the enthronement of their new spiritual leader, HH Taklung Tsetrul Rinpoche had an audience with HHDL on this occasion on the 4 June 2012.

I found this interesting string of chat and debate between a Nyingma Tulku and another FB user. I find it quite interesting as both parties are trying to make a point to each other but each does not have enough info or maybe they are just wanting to get their point across in a rush.

Anyways, I've posted here to share to let everyone know how much the outside world perceive the entire ban.

=========================================================================

FB User: so the head of Nyingma is taking orders from this Gelug tulku?

Nyingma Tulku: No, rinpoche dont have to take orders, its a tradition dat the new elected head will have a audience with His Holiness Dalai, since he is the spritual Head of Tibetan Buddhism....

FB User: OK fine. I just don't want to see this Gelugi takes advantage over the Nyingmapas and play his power game.

Nyingma Tulku: hey dun think this way....in old times it has been somethin like dis, but dis days every sect is same.

FB User: we all know uncle dalai is a politician. We have to be very very careful.

FB User: we don't want something like the karmapa schism and dorj shug things happen to nyingmapas.... u know who is behind these mess

FB User: May the Lotus Born Guru bless the Nyingma lineage for it to be free from conflict and benefit all beings

Nyingma Tulku: if u have met him, i bet u will never say like dis, btw he has already resigned from the exile goverment post, now he is just the head of spritual tibetan buddhism.....

FB User: You mean he is the head of Nyingma plus gelug plus kagyu plus sakya plus jonang? seriously?

Nyingma Tulku: HH Dalai Lama is the one who stoped Dorji Shugden....n the one who is supporting DS is the Chinese Goverment, they are doing it secretly...

Nyingma Tulku: actually he is the head of Gelug, but all the other head of sects consider him the head of Tibetan Buddhism....

========================================================================

It is interesting how much Dorje Shugden has infiltrated into the lives of ordinary practitioners and Lamas of other traditions. They are all talking behind closed doors and out in the open. Unfortunately for us, due to the ban and misrepresented information, they know so little and what little they know are riddled with wrong information.

First of all, the Dalai Lama is not the head of the Gelugs. It is the elected position of Gaden Tri Rinpoche that is the head of the Gelugs as the Lama in place represents Lama Tsongkhapa. The Dalai Lama is not the head of all Tibetan Buddhism. He is treated with a lot of respect and awe by the leaders of other traditions because of his stature and who he is. The Dalai Lama does not make major decisions for other sects, except perhaps in inter-sectarian issues. Each sect or sub-sect has its own leader and they are the ones who hold the real spiritual power.

[Vajraprotector]

It is sad that Tibetan Buddhism is so full of controversy and great Lamas are seen as playing "power game". What is being discussed about the great traditions of Karma Kagyu is "The 2 Karmapas", not the Four Yogas of Mahamudra, while amongst the Gelugs is not about The Great Exposition of the Stages of the Path & The Great Exposition of Tantras but rather the Dorje Shugden ban, and not forgetting the controversy of "The Real Panchen Lama vs The China Panchen Lama".

On top of that, due to the label of different schools of Buddhism, some have their conceit about learning, and some have their own special pride, looking down on the practitioners of other orders as more inferior. In my opinion, what is worse now is that within the school itself, we have people who are practising "sectarianism", creating divisions between Shugden practitioners and non-Shugden practitioners. Since when Buddhadharma is about division?

In fact, if we look at some great masters who have studied and understood the different doctrines, never despise nor criticise any lineage.

The great sage of the Sakya Order, Sapan wrote in his Three Vows that, in his youth, he studied extensively the literature of all the orders of Tibet, under different masters. He made great effort to learn, understand, and realise the doctrines of these different schools and never despised any of them and cherished them all.
Longchen Rabjampa, the great scholar of the Nyingma Order, practiced similarly. He received transmission of Dharma from masters of all four orders without discrimination. Needless to say, Lord Tsongkhapa of Gelug, who is known to have studied extensively under masters of all orders. Khyentse Wangpo, foremost teacher of the Rime, or non-sectarian movement, had studied under 150 masters of all the four orders of Tibetan Buddhism. 

Personally, I believe that we should make our best effort to help lift the ban, then there will be less inclination amongst those in the worldwide Buddhist community to play "Dharma Police" (whether or not it is out of genuine concern), because how many in actual fact are qualified to do so? Faith is the foundation of the Dharma. It is faith in the authenticity and the truth of Buddhist teachings and confidence in the efficacy of the path to enlightenment that impels us to take upon ourselves the commitments of vows. If people are turned off with Tibetan Buddhism because of these endless controversies and issues, then the growth of Dharma in the world brought about by Tibetan Buddhism will be hampered.

[dsiluvu]

Dorje Shugden seems to be such a talk of the town always. It seems the whole controversy is so much more interesting to gossip and talk about rather then Dharma. Well at least we got them talking. But yes it's amazing what Big Uncle talked about... how even who is the Dalai Lama and what authority He has, his very own people, the Tibetans are uncertain. How could they not realise that the Dalai Lama is NOT head of the Gelugpa school?! Hilarious.

This simply tells me how much they know and they are exposed to. Gosh they may not even realise that this "ban" is totally against human rights issues for it may not be something they could even comprehend. Also are they not now supposed to be managed by a "democratic" govt headed by a Mr. Lobsang Sangay? So where is the democracy?

This explains it and how sorry to say Tibet lost their country to China. Their way of thinking would never bring progress. Look if they cannot even get who their leader the Dalai Lama is right, don't think they could handle Tibet even if it was handed back to them by China - sorry.

[Lineageholder]

This is an interesting conversation on Facebook because it reveals the utter confusion about the role of the Dalai Lama. It reveals that he is neither the head of the Gelugpa tradition and neither is he the head of Tibetan Buddhism. There is also the view expressed that the DL is very political and the overall feeling is that the questioner doesn't trust the DL and doesn't want the Nyingmas to get involved with him.

[Ensapa]

I find it interesting that even Tibetans themselves do not know who the Dalai Lama really is and whether or not he is the secular head or spiritual head of Buddhism. Perhaps, this Nyingma Tulku wanted to look good by saying that he is on Team Dalai Lama, which many Tibetans do. Another possibility could be that the Nyingma Lama really does not know much about other traditions....

[icy]

Thank you Harrynephew for this interesting conversation.  I bet everyone is as confused and has been taken for a ride by the Tibetan Spiritual Head or so it seems.  So much distrust amongst the community and different lineage holders.  Why not lift the ban. create unity and trust to win their support and respect.  It is time....

[Big Uncle]

I find it interesting that even Tibetans themselves do not know who the Dalai Lama really is and whether or not he is the secular head or spiritual head of Buddhism. Perhaps, this Nyingma Tulku wanted to look good by saying that he is on Team Dalai Lama, which many Tibetans do. Another possibility could be that the Nyingma Lama really does not know much about other traditions....

Over the years, I have been visiting Nepal on many occasions and in the process have visited Bouddha over and over again for religious and shopping rounds. I have noticed how the mainly Nyingma, Kagyu and Sakya shop owners often have a picture of the Dalai Lama in theirs shops along with their individual Lamas. These little pictures seems to reflect an over-riding sentiment in using the Dalai Lama as a display of political-correctness of being on the right side of things.

Even ethnic Nepalese would display a picture of the Dalai Lama to show that they are on the right side as well. I am quite surprised to see how people now just simply hang a picture of the Dalai Lama and they consider themselves political clean. And why would simple merchants be interested to appear politically correct? Well, appearing to be with the Dalai Lama would instantly guarantee that you support from all traditions. That's the trick and that's what all the merchants want and had been getting.

[dsiluvu]

I find it interesting that even Tibetans themselves do not know who the Dalai Lama really is and whether or not he is the secular head or spiritual head of Buddhism. Perhaps, this Nyingma Tulku wanted to look good by saying that he is on Team Dalai Lama, which many Tibetans do. Another possibility could be that the Nyingma Lama really does not know much about other traditions....

Over the years, I have been visiting Nepal on many occasions and in the process have visited Bouddha over and over again for religious and shopping rounds. I have noticed how the mainly Nyingma, Kagyu and Sakya shop owners often have a picture of the Dalai Lama in theirs shops along with their individual Lamas. These little pictures seems to reflect an over-riding sentiment in using the Dalai Lama as a display of political-correctness of being on the right side of things.

Even ethnic Nepalese would display a picture of the Dalai Lama to show that they are on the right side as well. I am quite surprised to see how people now just simply hang a picture of the Dalai Lama and they consider themselves political clean. And why would simple merchants be interested to appear politically correct? Well, appearing to be with the Dalai Lama would instantly guarantee that you support from all traditions. That's the trick and that's what all the merchants want and had been getting.

Seems like everyone is just simply putting on a politically correct "show". Sounds like not many and happily and willingly supporting HHDL or the CTA and their ways, rules, actions but are forced to do so if not face brutal injustice consequences especially for the Gelug's because HHDL is from this lineage. Looks like the rest are just tolerating and going along to not cause trouble for themselves more then for the love of HHDL as their spiritual leader even though this itself it not correct.

In a way i think HHDL knows and is probably playing this political game to shut the CTA up - maybe. Who knows. But one thing is for sure, HHDL is saying He will end this game after this life for there may not be another Dalai Lama. I am beginning to believe this statement of His as a way to get out of the politics. Wonder how CTA will then fair in politics, every sect have their own spiritual head and they are the ones that will guide their people. Sooner or later each will go their way like in the past before the Dalai Lama role began.

I do not see how CTA can change their perspective without ever experience of running a nation with a Dalai Lama. What an unstable future for them.