Shamar Rinpoche says that Dorje Shugden practitioners’ protests are effective

[dsiluvu]

Extracted from this very website here: Shamar Rinpoche says that Dorje Shugden practitioners’ protests are effective http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=12130

This point has been extracted from a response by H.E. Sharmapa to a letter by Dr. Tseten Trinley, from
Tibetan Association Germany; German-Tibetan Cultural Society

You write: “It is especially weird for a fellow Tibetan to hear from you and various members of your group all kinds of accusations against our Government in Exile.” We never made accusations against the Tibetan Government in Exile until we were forced to defend ourselves against the Government in Exile’s involvement in the internal affairs of the Karma Kagyu. The shocking behavior of the Exile Government in taking the side of one faction while trying to destroy the other, made the internal problem infinitely worse. Their actions made it necessary to expose their treachery. But how did we do this? As always we did it in a nonviolent, responsible manner by respectfully explaining the events and historical context of the problem. I find it interesting that when the Dorje Shugden organization violently protested, accused and attacked the Dalai Lama, you were frightened into silence. But when we respond to the Exile Government’s dishonest interference in our internal affairs in a respectful manner, you are fearless and make bold accusations that we are being violent. This is wrong.[/color]

8. You write: “We are in the process of building a good democratic future government of Tibet. This is important for all Tibetans, not just a small group. It would be good if you had a second thought on the consequences of your actions before you made them an object for criticism from outsiders.”
This is exactly what we have been saying to the Exile Government of Tibet. You should direct this comment to them, not to us..

9. You write: “The Tibetans in exile have made mistakes, and we have learned from them. Democracy is nothing that comes out of the blue shy and can be installed instantly when we return to Tibet. It needs long term practice and experience. We have a golden opportunity to perform it now in exile, while our government resides in the biggest democratic country of the world. It is known to all intellectual Tibetans and Tibet experts in Tibet and outside Tibet that the future of the Tibet will be decided by the Tibetans and not any religious institutions.”
I congratulate you on your view.

I find it nice to know that H.E. The Sharmapa took Dorje Shugden protest as an example to highlight their plight and that he thought Shugdenpas shut them up lol. We hope we could shut them up even more!
So CTA... can we see some changes please now that you have claimed to be a democratic govt in exile. This is your chance to show the word you can make a change!

[DSFriend]

I find it nice to know that H.E. The Sharmapa took Dorje Shugden protest as an example to highlight their plight and that he thought Shugdenpas shut them up lol. We hope we could shut them up even more!
So CTA... can we see some changes please now that you have claimed to be a democratic govt in exile. This is your chance to show the word you can make a change!

It would certainly be nice to see CTA taking a stance and make a change.

The controversies and ban on Dorje Shugden is known throughout the world. Why would any government stand for such atrocity?! What is there to be gained? Perhaps not so much what is to be gained but fear that is keeping CTA bound by the power and control of HHDL? If that is the case, then what is CTA empowered to do and not? I'm sure there are plenty CTA can freely do for the tibetans, but this controversy is not something to skirt around as it is a widespread issue.

[WisdomBeing]

It’s great to see this issue brought back into the light. Thanks. Basically, what I thought when I saw this again was that even though the Dorje Shugden controversy is decades old, people are still aware of it – even from non-Gelugpa traditions, for example here in this case, it is HH the Shamarpa Rinpoche speaking.

Large Dorje Shugden organisations like the New Kadampa Tradition are still expanding. It shows that people are not at all daunted by the controversy. The condemnations from HH the Dalai Lama and CTA obviously does not affect them one iota. Instead, the NKT is still growing from strength to strength!

Let us always keep our Protector close and never give his practice up at the cost of our lives.

[Vajraprotector]

Large Dorje Shugden organisations like the New Kadampa Tradition are still expanding. It shows that people are not at all daunted by the controversy. The condemnations from HH the Dalai Lama and CTA obviously does not affect them one iota. Instead, the NKT is still growing from strength to strength!

Let us always keep our Protector close and never give his practice up at the cost of our lives.

I agree with you WisdomBeing, as long as we keep going and growing, no one can stop us, not even the ban!

I remember His Holiness himself mentioned in January 2012 about the practice growing in America, England, Europe, Taiwan, Singapore and China. Well, even His Holiness knows that the ban cannot stop Dorje Shugden practitioners to grow.
 (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=11294)

To echo what His Holiness said, it is "up to you", so it is up to us to make the practice grow with whatever methods we can to help, yes, including protests (I don't agree with this, but it works, so I have to agree it is an effective method). I rejoice that many Shugden Lamas did not give up their practice, and continue to propogate and promote this practice in various parts of the world.

May we not be separated from and watched over by the peaceful and wrathful Manjushris always.

[Ensapa]

here's some interesting facts about Shamar Rinpoche: the CTA in the past has banned his incarnation because it held a lot of power that rivaled the 5th Dalai Lama's

C. Shamar Rinpoche's Historical Account

• Accordingly, we assume for the sake of argument that the extensive accounts blaming Shamar Rinpoche for the Gurkha-Manchu debacle are incorrect in attributing blame, and that the 10th Shamar Tulku was skillfully framed by a nefarious conspiracy between the Tibetan government, the Manchu Emperor of China and the Gurkha leadership. We can accept Khenpo Choedrak's protestations that the 10th Shamar Rinpoche was framed by anti-Kagyu powers of the 18th century, and that he was therefore subject to a vile propaganda campaign which led to the outlawing of Shamar Rinpoche incarnations in Tibet, and to the stripping of the entitlements and assets of the Shamar incarnation line in Tibet.

• As a second step, we address the inevitable charges that we cannot judge spiritual issues. To preclude this argument, we step back from any attempt to historicize "spiritual" preeminence as represented by the lineage hierarchy. One's acceptance of someone's spiritual achievement is perfectly valid as a personal requirement of one's spiritual path, but such acceptance cannot be read to preclude one from using one's native intelligence to examine facts. Thus, we temporarily suspend our theocratic filters and look at the Tibetan history in a political context, the way we would analyze any other sociopolitical phenomenon in our daily life.

D. The Rise Of An Anti-Karmapa Faction

Among The Kagyu Order

• The following summarizes the historical record exhaustively outlined in the accompanying postings, and draws some sociopolitical conclusions from that record which throw a glaring light on current events:

1. Growing Challenges To The Political Power Of The Shamar Rinpoches.

• After the ascension of the Great Fifth Dalai Lama and establishment of the Gelug theocracy in 1642, the Kagyu order was soon stripped of much of its traditional political authority. Shamar Rinpoche apparently continued during the 17th and early 18th century to be a leading light in the lineage, but we can assume that during the 17th and 18th centuries the Gelugpa authorities made it increasingly difficult for him to assert any substantial political influence in central Tibet, where Gelugpa power is dominant. Meanwhile, the political influence of the Tai Situ Rinpoche continues to grow, and the 18th century founding of Palpung Monastery presages Situ Rinpoche's political dominance in Eastern Tibet.

• In the early 1700's, the 10th incarnation of Shamar Rinpoche is born into one of the most powerful families in Tibet, a brother of the Panchen Lama. He is Kagyu; his two older brothers are Gelugpa. When the Panchen Lama dies, and Shamar Rinpoche stands ready to share in some of his brother's estate, with its extraordinary wealth and prerogatives, his aspirations are blocked by his older brother. Oppressed from all sides, and with a tradition of illustrious lineage incarnations to uphold, the 10th Shamar Rinpoche seeks assistance from followers in Nepal, fleeing there in 1784 ( date provided by the 13th Shamarpa.) In Nepal, he becomes embroiled in the machinations of the Gurkhas, who invade Tibet in 1788 and then again in 1791-92, when they sack and loot Tashilhunpo, the monastery of the Panchen Lamas.

• The 10th Shamar Rinpoche's connection to the Gurkhas, real or fictionalized, had devastating results for him personally, and for his incarnate successors. By 1792, the 10th Shamar is dead. He is universally labeled a traitor by Tibetan, Nepalese, Chinese and English observers. His monasteries are confiscated and his incarnation line made illegal in Tibet. Making the debacle all the more bitter, the Chinese Emperor claims that the Tibetan government requested the Chinese army to intervene in Tibet to repel the Gurkhas. This purported request is used as an excuse to secure the country as part of the Chinese Empire. The Manchu Ambans take firm control of the Tibetan government, and assert the right of the Emperor of China to control the identification of all Tibetan reincarnations.

the CTA had banned the Sharmapa from incarnating before. The ban on his incarnation was only officially lifted by the current Dalai Lama. CTA is repeating its previous mistakes by imposing bans around people and practices they deem to be too powerful and it will not benefit them a bit. Sharmapa Rinpoche's story shows that the CTA has been on this for quite sometime and there is absolutely no sign of them stopping.

[Barzin]

It is nice to hear from another lineage speak up and make a stand for the ban.  After all, it is not just about religion, it is about Tibetan as well.   It seems like CTA is still getting "the voice" from various part of the world voicing regarding the ban.  It is easy to release a statement but it seems that no action was done regarding the ban.  I wonder when will CTA do something about the ban?  So many people have written in to express their concern.  What irked me is that nothing was said and done. 

On the other hand just like what everyone else has mentioned organization like NKT is growing and not stopping, the news we received Dorje Shugden images are everywhere, chapels are erecting and practitioners are growing; it is definitely out of CTA's control but they are still not doing anything about it?  One thing for sure for the Shugden practitioners, one day the ban is not lifted, we will fight for the ban to be lifted!

[WisdomBeing]

I just wanted to add that don’t forget… up until recently, CTA aka the Tibetan-Government-in-Exile WAS the Dalai Lama. So all this ‘politics’ was created by a previous Dalai Lama, including the stopping of the recognition of HH Sharmapas in the past. The incarnations of one of the most supreme Lamas – Panchen Sonam Drakpa and hence Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen have been STOPPED also.

Perhaps HH the Dalai Lama will restore the recognition of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen’s incarnations in this life also.

[dsiluvu]

This intruding of others religion, lineage and banning this and that person is a medieval type of government and no democratic govt in any country today does this. If the CTA does not stop this type of unethical authority, it will surely create another stream of doubts and protest by their people eventually. It would be outright deception of being a democratic society.

I do hope and think it will surely seize or weakened when His Holiness passes, no offense. Why? because all this time CTA had His Holiness to back them up, to use His Holiness name as their very reason to authorize such decisions. And Tibetans, majority who are not educated or exposed would follow blindly because is would blasphemy to object differently. No one has ever in their parliament.

Yes perhaps decisions came from His Holiness and they executed them... but when His Holiness passes, then there will no longer be this "Spiritual Head" to make such decisions. Who will CTA say that the verdict of such decision were made by? And honestly who will actually listen to them at that time? I doubt His Holiness the Sharmapa would.  And CTA would probably have bigger problems at that time - to find the Dalai Lama - what a mission! And to find the Dalai Lama before China does? That is if His Holiness is returning, so far He says he is not.

[lotus1]

It is great to see that the Red Hat Lama of Tibet, Sharmapa  Rinpoche also spoke about Dorje Shugden and think that the protest of Dorje Shugden is effective.
Wake up CTA, you have been making mistakes again and again, just like they banned Sharmapa Rinpoche before. As they have lifted the ban on Sharmapa Rinpoche before, I do sincerely hope that they will also realize the mistake that they have make on Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen's incarnation asap, especially during this life of his holiness Dalai Lama as he may not re-incarnate again.
In additional to this, we should also write more post on this DS.com and social media. Create the awareness for Dorje Shugden and this will definitely increase the pressure on CTA to lift the ban!!

[Tenzin Malgyur]

]I find it nice to know that H.E. The Sharmapa took Dorje Shugden protest as an example to highlight their plight and that he thought Shugdenpas shut them up lol. We hope we could shut them up even more!
So CTA... can we see some changes please now that you have claimed to be a democratic govt in exile. This is your chance to show the word you can make a change!

It is certainly wonderful news that Dorje Shugden protests are noticed and now it is used as a comparison. What more it is being used as an example by a leader of another lineage of Tibetan Buddhist. CTA should be practicing the democracy that they are singing to the world right now. How about granting your citizens the freedom to the religion of their choice for a starter and give equal rights and treatment to every Tibetan regardless of what their belief.

[shugdenpromoter]

Thank you Shamar Rinpoche.

I have heard from a wise person before whether a Rinpoche is "real" or "not", look at his results. Look at how he teaches his students. Shamar Rinpoche is not ordinary. I have been reading his website and a few articles. 

I remember once I read on this forum about the 16th Karmapa and how angry he was when he visited a Nyima Monastery in Parping, Nepal. He saw a statue Dorje Dorlo in the temple stepping on Shugden...he was furious

"He said, “Who made this? Where did this lineage come from? Show me the monk who did this.” He left the monastery very unhappy.

More than that, the Karmapa predicted then to the Nyingmas at the monastery, “You will have no choice in the future but to practice this protector; there will come a time when you need him" referring of course to Dorje Shugden"

The bigger the awareness is to Shugden issue the better for us. We have a higher ground to protest and make a change. Not everyone operates like CTA. There is such thing as Freedom of Religion and Speech.







Topic: What's the similarity between Sharmapa and Shugden's dilemma? http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1703.0

[Ensapa]

I just wanted to add that don’t forget… up until recently, CTA aka the Tibetan-Government-in-Exile WAS the Dalai Lama. So all this ‘politics’ was created by a previous Dalai Lama, including the stopping of the recognition of HH Sharmapas in the past. The incarnations of one of the most supreme Lamas – Panchen Sonam Drakpa and hence Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen have been STOPPED also.

Perhaps HH the Dalai Lama will restore the recognition of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen’s incarnations in this life also.

Chankya Rolpa Dorje's incarnation was also banned, all because he became Emperor Qianlong's root Guru and Ganden Phodrang got so scared that they threw some accusations at him and seized his wealth and further closed down his ladrang. Nobody was allowed to defend Chankya Rolpa Dorje. And in a hilarious and ironic twist, a few sentences from his bebum regarding the removal of a spirit from Dhol was misinterpreted and twisted to mean that he disapproved of Dorje Shugden from the start, but the same piece of paper, probably penned by Dreyfus fails to mention that his incarnation lineage was banned. Not to mention Reting Rinpoche who was accused of trying to murder Taktra Rinpoche and again there was little or no proof of this but he was imprisoned and tortured to death anyway. It sounds more like Reting Rinpoche had displeasured certain officials and they set him up to silence him from talking about the truth. HHDL seemed to be okay with it, as he said that his love and samaya to Reting still remains intact and even went on to said he dreamt of receiving teachings from Reting Rinpoche. But his incarnation still remains banned, together with Chankya Rolpa Dorje who came back as Pabongkha.

Another incarnation that was banned is Taranatha. For political reasons, Jonang, the school he founded, was closed down and clamped down by the Tibetan government.The main reason cited was that the view of emptiness that he preached was wrong and therefore was harmful and he needs to be shut down. But Tarantha went to Mongolia and taught, then was reincarnated as the great saint Zanzabar and the Jetsun Khalkas instead. His incarnations are still banned by the CTA till this day although oddly the Dalai Lama receives the last Jetsun Khalka warmly and he is a well known Dorje Shugden practitioner as well.

The CTA has not been benefitting Buddhism at all, only themselves and creating even more negative causes for themselves in the long run. It is only a matter of time where they have to reap their consequences for banning high lamas from incarnating. Ironically, when China tried to dictate the incarnate lamas, CTA laughed at them but CTA did not unban the banned reincarnations at all and CTA cannot stop them anyways.

[diamond girl]

It’s great to see this issue brought back into the light. Thanks. Basically, what I thought when I saw this again was that even though the Dorje Shugden controversy is decades old, people are still aware of it – even from non-Gelugpa traditions, for example here in this case, it is HH the Shamarpa Rinpoche speaking.

Large Dorje Shugden organisations like the New Kadampa Tradition are still expanding. It shows that people are not at all daunted by the controversy. The condemnations from HH the Dalai Lama and CTA obviously does not affect them one iota. Instead, the NKT is still growing from strength to strength!

Let us always keep our Protector close and never give his practice up at the cost of our lives.

Your comment on New Kadampa Tradition and this controversy made me watch some videos and I found this video which also talks about the HHDL's desire to put all 4 schools integrated, and what they feel about it.

BBC: An Unholy Row - New Kadampa Tradition & Dorje Shugden - Documentary 1998 - Part 1	Small | Large

[honeydakini]

This is an interesting question - how to determine the effectiveness of any particular protest or campaign.

Is the measure of success merely whether the situation turns around and the initial decision is reversed - in this case that the Dalai Lama retracts his words and now authorises the practice? Or also that the measure of success and effectiveness is in the level of awareness it raises in the world about the practice? That it brings the practice out to many people who would otherwise never hear of or be interested in the issue? After all, the very message about this website is not to promote the practice at the expense of bringing down the Dalai Lama's name or the CTA in

So the effectiveness that Sharmar Rinpoche talks about is not just about "silencing" the CTA but could also refer to a second level of awareness - the rest of the world are hearing about the protests and therefore, about Dorje Shugden. Some may actually think that the protests have been ineffective in reversing the CTA's decision - after all, the ban is still very much there and the CTA are still doing their best to enforce it among their community. On the flipside however, more people than ever are practicing today, with huge Dorje Shugden monasteries and institutions growing throughout the world. More people have heard the name Dorje Shugden than ever before in the world. So yes, while the ban hasn't directly been reversed yet, the long term effect of the protests are creating a wave of change, education and blessings on a spiritual level for the practice to grow.

At the very least, the protests, websites like these and conversations on public platforms like the internet (forums and social media avenues) are diluting the opposition to Dorje Shugden. People are learning, getting information and realising, hey, this practice isn't all the bad that they're saying it is. If nothing else, the percentage of people who are supporting or neutral towards the practice is growing stronger over the percentage of those who are trying to suppress it. 

I think that's pretty effective!

[Ensapa]

This is an interesting question - how to determine the effectiveness of any particular protest or campaign.

Is the measure of success merely whether the situation turns around and the initial decision is reversed - in this case that the Dalai Lama retracts his words and now authorises the practice? Or also that the measure of success and effectiveness is in the level of awareness it raises in the world about the practice? That it brings the practice out to many people who would otherwise never hear of or be interested in the issue? After all, the very message about this website is not to promote the practice at the expense of bringing down the Dalai Lama's name or the CTA in

So the effectiveness that Sharmar Rinpoche talks about is not just about "silencing" the CTA but could also refer to a second level of awareness - the rest of the world are hearing about the protests and therefore, about Dorje Shugden. Some may actually think that the protests have been ineffective in reversing the CTA's decision - after all, the ban is still very much there and the CTA are still doing their best to enforce it among their community. On the flipside however, more people than ever are practicing today, with huge Dorje Shugden monasteries and institutions growing throughout the world. More people have heard the name Dorje Shugden than ever before in the world. So yes, while the ban hasn't directly been reversed yet, the long term effect of the protests are creating a wave of change, education and blessings on a spiritual level for the practice to grow.

At the very least, the protests, websites like these and conversations on public platforms like the internet (forums and social media avenues) are diluting the opposition to Dorje Shugden. People are learning, getting information and realising, hey, this practice isn't all the bad that they're saying it is. If nothing else, the percentage of people who are supporting or neutral towards the practice is growing stronger over the percentage of those who are trying to suppress it. 

I think that's pretty effective!

Yes, I agree with what you said honeydakini on the level of successes that this campaign has. And by hearing these statements, it is very obvious to me that this is the real Sharmapa. The previous Karmapa was known to be a supporter of Dorje Shugden despite many of his peers deriding and criticizing Dorje Shugden as being a ghost or spirit and that it should be destroyed, and by peers I meant other Kagyu and Nyingma lamas who were already antagonistic towards Dorje Shugden long before the ban out of sheer jealousy. This is interesting because before the ban many lamas just do not talk about Dorje Shugden but eventually not talking became outright criticism and outright criticism became destruction. But the 16th Karmapa was one of the few non Gelug lamas that openly expressed support for Dorje Shugden as per this incident:

This picture shows the wall paiting of a Nyingma center with Dorje Drolo stepping on a monk, the monk is supposed to be Dorje Shugden! Isn't monk a universal symbol of holiness? Even if they think Shugden is evil, shouldn't they just draw Shugden not in a monk's clothes? How twisted it is to depict a monk being stepped on, no matter how noble the reasoning is!!!

Quote of a famous incident: in the 70s or 80s the 16th Karmapa went to an opening of a Nyingma monastery in Nepal. There, they had a statue of Dorje Drolo which had been modified and shown to be stepping on Dorje Shugden. Karmapa was very angry when he saw this. He said, “Who made this? Where did this lineage come from? Show me the monk who did this.” He left the monastery very unhappy.

More than that, the Karmapa predicted then to the Nyingmas at the monastery, “You will have no choice in the future but to practice this protector; there will come a time when you need him" referring of course to Dorje Shugden.

This incident has been written and recorded down by Dagom Rinpoche himself, see the sungbum in the attached pic

 
As shared here: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1809.0

Both the Karmapa and Sharmapa are fearless leaders and I do not think that they can be silenced with a ban or two. The fact that Sharmapa is not afraid of talking about Dorje Shugden shows that he is the real thing. If the previous Karmapa shows his support and approval for Dorje Shugden, would it not make sense that the Sharmapa do the same as they have an extremely close teacher and student relationship. And if the previous Karmapa showed support for Dorje Shudgen, would the current one not show support for Dorje Shugden too? So to make things simple for the Karmapa controversy if they insist to have only one Karmapa is to see and observe which Karmapa has the courage to declare his support for Dorje Shugden. The Karmapa is on a political and spiritual level on par with the Dalai Lama and thus he has nothing to fear even if he made such a declaration. Also, it would show CTA and HHDL that, in the event that Ogyen Trinley is a fake Karmapa, that nobody can actually distort or sully the Karmapa incarnation line and it would be futile for anyone to try to meddle with their affairs as the real one will always appear.

Thaye Dorje and Sharma Rinpoche needs to speak up if they would like to "challenge" HHDL's candidate for the Karmapa by start manifesting signs of the previous Karmapa already and perhaps even promoting Dorje Shugden for the Karma Kagyu, speaking out against the ban and urging their followers to do the same and even visiting Trijang Rinpoche in the US to rekindle their close friendship over the past centuries. If they cannot, they are essentially saying that HHDL is right for choosing his own Karmapa. The Sharmapa and Karmapa are fearless bodhisattvas, and it is high time that he talks more about Dorje Shugden rather than keep quiet and hide in fear about this issue. That would be amazing as the Karmapa himself has many followers all over the world and they would be able to generate enough force to remove the ban. It will also be of great benefit to the Karma Kagyus as it proves that they are strong enough to withstand political influences from the Dalai Lama, that is if the Sharmapa is actually serious about proving that Thaye Dorje is the real Karmapa....but so far not much has happened. So much for wishful thinking. By the way, the 8th Karmapa, Mikyo Dorje is Trijang Rinpoche's previous incarnation and in many lifetimes, both the Karmapa and Trijang Rinpoche were extremely close. Why has none of the Karmapas met with Trijang Rinpoche yet? It is not logical that a friendship that spanned over many lifetimes suddenly cut itself off right now just like that.