Did the Dalai Lama underestimate the strength of our samaya?

[honeydakini]

I joined an interesting little debate on Facebook today. There's a link on Facebook to the recent article about religious persecution (the one with the videos) and the following discussion:

Lozang Gyaltsen:
most people don't think about much beyond their next meal or the next time they're gonna get laid.. they certainly don't think much of any substance. This sad fact of the human condition is why leaders, like HHDL, think they can do and say what they want with impunity. At the very least, we can surmise that HHDL seriously underestimated just how seriously practitioners took the teachings of and their samaya with their own Lamas. Those who blindly follow without a second thought are incapable of coherent and critical thinking skills. What they have to say is of little value and what they think is so distorted as to be meaningless.

Gaz Oksas:
 ?Lozang Gyaltsan that reminds me of another quote (Im just full of it): God gave men a brain and a penis, but only enough blood to run one at a time. Have to say though, its not as though woemn dont abide in desire.
You think he underestimated? Or he knew precisley wed fight back?

Lozang Gyaltsan:
 I was on the fence about this one for quite some time.. subscribing to the "bigger-picture" notion that he did this to get Shugden practitioners to close ranks and to rid the tradition of those who were practicing and shouldn't.. His remarks, in the West, always seemed to lean toward a guarded tolerance of those who disagree. BUT.. those of us in the West who have close-ties to Tibetans {or access to Tibetan news-sources} have the advantage of hearing {or reading} public temper tantrums and threatening rants that are directed toward the Tibetans... so, yes, I have come to believe, as a direct result of his actions, that he seriously over-estimated his influence.. I do,however, believe that he must have known some of us would resist attempts to get us to break samaya.. I don't think, however, that he realized just how much this would diminish his world-wide celebrity.
If he did this to solidify the tradition, then he has succeeded. There are now a far greater number of people practicing Shugden than at any time in history. If he did it to get rid of the tradition, he has failed miserably..

Either way, he has certainly eradicated the notion that his is, in any way, infallible or incapable of making mistakes...

myself: 
?Lozang Gyaltsan I'm not sure the Dalai Lama was really all that concerned about his celebrity status. In spite of all the politics around the DS issue, His Holiness still enjoys much global recognition; his public teachings are still booked out by tens of thousands of people.
I've been more inclined to look at it this way - that he is risking his own reputation for the sake of saying something about a practice (which eventually, has proven to become stronger than ever). If he really was all just about celebrity and reputation and the 8 worldly dharmas, would this be a move that any diplomat or leader would take? It seems unlikely, which has only led me to think that he must have his reasons for the ban, that are beyond what we can perceive. That he would risk all the very things we perceive as important (status, reputation, comfort, even sponsorship and support), for the sake of talking about Dorje Shugden, is an act of kindness in itself


******
What do you all think? Do you think the Dalai Lama did know how we'd react - and imposed the ban anyway? Or he grossly underestimated just how strong and resilient Shugden practitioners really are to have upheld the practice in spite of all the opposition they are facing?

[DharmaSpace]

It is always good to hear what others have to say about he ban. And we have Lozang Gyeltsen commenting about perhaps it is a big picture that the Dalai Lama is working towards. Lozang Gyeltsen is a monk and monks dont lie. Dalai Lama is a very wise man he knows what he is doing. I dont think the Dalai Lama underestimated people's samaya at all. In fact he was counting on it. 

[DharmaSpace]

If he did this to solidify the tradition, then he has succeeded. There are now a far greater number of people practicing Shugden than at any time in history. If he did it to get rid of the tradition, he has failed miserably..

I totally agree with the above. This is probably the least successful ban i the world.

[Ensapa]

 Losang Gyalsten gives us an interesting perspective of the ban from the eyes of a monk. I find it very interesting that despite the ban there are more and more people practicing Dorje Shugden and there is more exposure more than ever for Dorje Shugden as it is almost always paired with the Dalai Lama in the news and media, as reporters and writers start to realize that it cannot be that the Dalai Lama is without flaws. People these days are realistic and they would want to dig information about something. They no longer take things as it is and they will want to find out more, although some people may still take the easy way out and pray to the Dalai Lama as if he was the pope and take everything he says as a command even if it is out of context, but a majority of them do not. Examples of how the media picks this up and then talks about it can be found here: http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=1480 and thus, it does show that the ban has promoted Dorje Shugden further and wider than before as people do want to support the downtrodden and things that are not mainstream and Dorje Shugden is the least mainstream Dharma protector there is.

Then, on China's site, China has been promoting Dorje Shugden due to the ban and declaration from the Dalai Lama that Dorje Shugden shortens his life. China has been lapping it up and has been actively assisting Dorje Shugden temples to build Dorje Shugden statues. Dorje Shugden Lamas such as Gangchen Rinpoche are allowed unrestricted access to Tibet and China and with that effect, he has managed to successfully rebuild Gangchen Ladrang and sustain it as well, spreading the Dharma far and wide within Tibet that many other Lamas are unable to do so. He has access to both China and outside world and he can bring a lot of benefit to both sides. In addition to that, Serkong Tritul has established a very firm Dorje Shugden base in Taiwan and has many followers there. One of the Dorje Shugden oracles current resides in Taiwan now, free from the death threats and discriminations that the CTA will subject him to if he was in Dharamsala. If Serkong Tritul had not been expelled, he would not have been able to start up such a huge center in such a short time and had built up so much and have benefitted so many people.  To me, this is proof that Dorje Shugden has spread far and wide despite the ban and it has not been successful at all.

On the other hand, as much as the ban has been very painful and difficult for all of us, it does have some positive side effects. But then again, the ban's time has ended as it has served its purpose and it is not necessary for the ban to actually continue anymore. There is no further reason for the ban to be extended beyond what it was meant to do and there is no reason for Dorje Shugden practitioners to be discriminated. Soon, more and more Dorje Shugden practitioners will show attainments and results as compared to those who would give up their own teachers and lineage for the sake of being on the "right" camp of the Dalai Lama. When that happens, the Dalai Lama will no longer be able to ignore the truth and will be forced to lift the ban as there is clear and definite proof that Dorje Shugden is an enlightened being and he can hold up well despite the ban, and people are still gaining clear and definite results. CTA will have no choice but to lift the ban as results speak more than flimsy excuses, lies, distorted truths and accusations.

The time for the ban to end is now. Those who have derided Dorje Shugden in the past will throughly regret their actions.

[Dhiman]

What do you all think? Do you think the Dalai Lama did know how we'd react - and imposed the ban anyway?

Well, considering the fact that he is the living Chenrezig I do expect he does have his clairvoyance. So my answer would be no, he did not underestimated our samaya. He would have probably seen the great influence of Lord Shugden around the world (mainly China) that followed by his decision to impose the ban. He had probably expected things to end up in a juicy controversy so that more people are being exposed to Dorje Shugden. Even after considering the level of damage done to the practitioners and monasteries of Dorje Shugden, I don't think the Dalai Lama would have made a decision that ended up promoting hatred and scorn.

[VivianChin]

I do not think that HHDL has underestimated the strength of our samaya. In fact, he wish for us to keep the samaya. Whether HHDL was or still a practitioner of DS, we don't know. But the fact is, he had been with the practitioners of DS, his teachers are the practitioner of DS, and he should know how strong is their samaya. That's why he is confident that by imposing the ban, these DS practitioners will not be giving up and will continue to keep the samaya. Secondly, HHDL also know that, based on the history, the Chinese will not let go of any chance that they have to suppress the opposition party. So by announcing this ban, whatever HHDL wanted to stop, the Chinese will strive to continue, especially by knowing that this practice will harm HHDL's life. Otherwise, Buddhisim in the Tibet land will be destroyed by the Chinese already as they knew it very well that most Tibetan buddhist will still look upon HHDL as their spiritual leader, even though they have driven him away. So by HHDL himself issued the ban and become the "bad guy", the Chinese will take this chance to support DS in Tibet with the purpose to build up their "good guy" image among the Tibetans. Look at the result now, I do not think such a high lama can make such a big mistake in his prediction if he really wanted to stop this practice.

[Dondrup Shugden]

What is interesting is that we are made to think about our samaya with our Guru.  A good student is concerned with his/her samaya with his/her Guru and know that the pure samaya is more important than his/her own lives, therefore would Dalai Lama under estimate that?

Being the Dalai Lama, upholding all vows and commitments in Tibetan Buddhism, would He then break his samaya to His Guru? If He does with the Ban and His non acceptance of Dorje Shugden and broken samaya with His Guru, Trijiang Rinpoche, then of course He totally disregard Guru Samaya.

Having read Dalai Lama’s books and His teachings, I do not think that he will break his samaya with his Guru. As such the Ban is an encouragement for Practitioners to hold fast to their samaya with their Guru and keep strong in their practice of Dorje Shugden.

For that very same reason the Ban is not effective.

Also note that many practitioners may not be Tibetans under the control of CTA and as such no harm can be inflicted on them.

I have compassion for the many who had suffered from this Ban and their sufferings is to benefit a big cause and may they be blessed.   

[shugdenprotect]

This controversy provided us with a real opportunity to practice Dharma. There was a teaching that said: it is easy for us to be nice when the going is easy, true dharma practice is our ability to still be “nice” when the going gets tough. Here, Dharma practitioners are put into action what they have learnt: A test of their faith. I am very certain that those who maintain strong Guru Devotion through a clean samaya will benefit from establishing a solid and firm faith in the 3 jewels and their journey. These individuals will probably be the chosen upholders of pure Dharma during our degenerate time when practice of dharma only gets harder.

Thus, it can also be added that the ban does not only nurture a group of powerful Dharma practitioners but also build a team of practitioners who will have the tenacity to spread and protect pure Dharma in the degenerate time as well as for the Dharma ending period.

As Buddhists, it can be concluded that we all agree on that karma forms the fundamental base for our practice. Being reborn within the 6 realms of samsara, it is certain that we have a large compilation of positive and negative karma. As vajrayana practitioners, it is our goal to purify ALL our karmas so that we achieve Buddha-hood in this life time. Therefore, besides creating a an opportunity to practice the teachings of Lord Buddha as mentioned above, the ban imposed by HH gives us the opportunity to purify of the negative karma in the form of sufferings that we have to ensure to uphold the practice of Lord Dorje Shugden. As we purify our karma and collect merits, we slowly but certainly create the cause for a better rebirth that is blessed by the 3 jewels.

Conclusion, HH did not underestimate the strength of our samaya but wishes that our Guru samaya will carry us through these trying times. The Dharma has taught us that “good or bad” depends on the eye through which we view a situation. Since the ban is an existing matter, it is most beneficial that we view it with constructive compassion and wisdom AND take action to better the scenario.

[Big Uncle]

Lozang Gyaltsan:
...
If he did this to solidify the tradition, then he has succeeded. There are now far greater number of people practicing Shugden than at any time in history. If he did it to get rid of the tradition, he has failed miserably..

Out of the whole conversation, this statement stuck out the most because it summarize the effects of the ban. The Dalai Lama has been a monk for all his life and he basically grew up and learnt from the best lay, religious teachers and advisors. Besides that, he was among the finest debaters of his time and therefore, he possesses incredible intellect and skill at analyzing people and situations. On top of that, he is basically a statesman, a trade that he had to embrace in order to safeguard the Tibetan people and bring Dharma to millions worldwide.

Therefore, I am sure he knew the ban would affect Dorje Shugden monastics and for that, I am sure he knew they would weather through the ban courageously and strongly. It is something he demanded from them because that's the quality that will spread Dorje Shugden far and wide. He knew the reaction he would get when he impose the ban. He must have already thought about it thoroughly before he said anything. It is really not rocket science to know what the reaction would be and he counted on those who are his loyal students to pull the ban through.

Whatever it is, we can measure the success rate of his effort through Lozang Gyeltsen's observation that was mentioned above. I am sure he knew that a mere ban would not be able to wipe out the practice but ensure that the faith and resolve becomes stronger than ever before.

[vajrastorm]

No, I don't think the Dalai Lama underestimates the strength of our samaya with our Guru. In fact, like what DharmaSpace says, he is "counting on it". The Dalai Lama is actually testing the strength of our samaya and hoping that we will pass the test.

Why I say this is because, as a Shugden practitioner, I find that keeping samaya with my Guru is not just helping to ensure that I be a faithful supporter of the Shugden practice. I find that i want to show that a Shugden practitioner and a devoted student of my Guru is an earnest Dharma practitioner who nurtures compassion and moral discipline as epitomized by Shugden and my Guru. I want to be well-versed and trained in the Gelug and Je Tsongkhapa Lineage teachings, including the Lamrim, the Three Principle Aspects of the Path and Lojong . I aspire to attain to the Middle (Nargajuna's) View of Emptiness.This is because,Manjushri  Dorje Shugen arose as a Supramundane and Uncommon Protector to protect these teachings especially Nargajuna's Middle View of Emptiness, which we in these degenerate times so badly need. 

So I believe Dalai Lama wants us to keep our samaya with our Guru and do our Dharma practice well.I agree with ShugdenProtect that keeping samaya is also about Dharma practice.

I feel, like Ensapa, that the Dalai Lama is waiting to lift the ban. He is waiting to see Shugden practitioners grow in overwhelming numbers, and Shugden practitioners take big strides in Dharma practice and attainments.

[vajratruth]

Tibetan Buddhists begin each prayer session with “Namo Guru Beh” to remind themselves of the utmost importance of the role of the Guru in their practice.  The Dalai Lama himself begins his daily sadhanas in the same way and it would be unlikely for HHDL to underestimate the practitioner’s realization of how important the samaya with the Guru is.

So no, I do not think that there was any miscalculation on the part of HHDL when he imposed the Dorje Shugden ban.

In fact, I would go as far as to say that HHDL was banking on the strength of our samaya to hold up in the face of the Shugden ban, and not only to hold but indeed to strengthen and grow the practice.

We need to remember that Logic was one of the Dalai Lama’s core studies.  And if the logic behind HHDL’s move to impose the ban was to kill off the Shugden practice, why did HHDL intensify moves to suppress the practice  (from merely discouraging it in 1980's to outright banning it in 1996 and stepping up anti-Shugden measures towards monasteries in around 2008) when he saw that his approach was having the opposite effect. It makes no sense.

We can check this proposition merely by looking at our own reaction. Does the ban not instill in us a deep resolve to spread the practice even more, if not as a measure to spread a practice we personally know to be extremely beneficial in our spiritual path, then as a correct response in honour of all those old monks who have suffered as the result of the ban?

Surely, the Dalai Lama knows this.

And what of the people who dropped the practice because of the ban? What is the real loss? What can you do with people with fake samaya? They are vacuous and can do little to spread true dharma. How much can one’s practice grow in the absence of clean samaya with the holy Guru?

[Dorje Pakmo]

If he did this to solidify the tradition, then he has succeeded. There are now a far greater number of people practicing Shugden than at any time in history. If he did it to get rid of the tradition, he has failed miserably..

I totally agree with the above. This is probably the least successful ban i the world.

I think His Holiness the Dalai Lama is a highly attained being and with his high level of clairvoyance knows exactly how Dorje Shugden’s practitioner would react but imposed the ban anyhow. It's been taught that the lifespan of teachers depends on the pure samaya of their students and when students don't keep their samaya, it shortens the lifespan of the teacher. Students will reap unthinkable negative Karma. This is taught to countless of Tibetan Buddhism students and monks. Having practiced Dorje Shugden himself (not sure if still practicing), tutored by Kaybje Trijang Rinpoche and giving teachings and initiations to Shugden practioners there is no way HHDL underestimates the samaya strength of Shugden practitioners. 

HHDL banned Shugden practice and said that his Guru Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche is wrong in practicing Dorje Shugden. In saying his Guru is wrong, HHDL is also as good as saying that Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche,  Kyabje Ling Rinpoche and the great masters before him are all wrong. Then the practices, lineages, initiations, transmissions passed to His Holiness would wrong too. Which also mean he may be wrong too?  What about his own Guru Samaya? There must be a deeper meaning behind what seem to be a reckless and unreasonable decision made by HHDL.

By imposing the ban, the samaya strength of Shugden practitioners is instantly being put to the test. And Dorje Shugden’s teaching since the ban has spread it wings further and wider, the numbers of practitioners increases steadily every day around the world. If anything this ban have only made Dorje Shugden practitioner stronger and more determined to spread the teaching.

[Ensapa]

I think His Holiness the Dalai Lama is a highly attained being and with his high level of clairvoyance knows exactly how Dorje Shugden’s practitioner would react but imposed the ban anyhow. It's been taught that the lifespan of teachers depends on the pure samaya of their students and when students don't keep their samaya, it shortens the lifespan of the teacher. Students will reap unthinkable negative Karma. This is taught to countless of Tibetan Buddhism students and monks. Having practiced Dorje Shugden himself (not sure if still practicing), tutored by Kaybje Trijang Rinpoche and giving teachings and initiations to Shugden practioners there is no way HHDL underestimates the samaya strength of Shugden practitioners. 

HHDL banned Shugden practice and said that his Guru Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche is wrong in practicing Dorje Shugden. In saying his Guru is wrong, HHDL is also as good as saying that Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche,  Kyabje Ling Rinpoche and the great masters before him are all wrong. Then the practices, lineages, initiations, transmissions passed to His Holiness would wrong too. Which also mean he may be wrong too?  What about his own Guru Samaya? There must be a deeper meaning behind what seem to be a reckless and unreasonable decision made by HHDL.

By imposing the ban, the samaya strength of Shugden practitioners is instantly being put to the test. And Dorje Shugden’s teaching since the ban has spread it wings further and wider, the numbers of practitioners increases steadily every day around the world. If anything this ban have only made Dorje Shugden practitioner stronger and more determined to spread the teaching.

If His Holiness the Dalai Lama knows that Dorje Shugden practitioners will not be able to hold the samaya, i do not think he would actually implement the ban. The ban did made many people question their devotion to Buddhism, especially on Tibetan Buddhism. It kind of makes people think again what did they get themselves into and what do they actually want from Buddhism. If their motivation for studying Tibetan Buddhism was because they wanted something exotic and not because they want to learn and understand through study, the ban would make them face this and if they did everything with the wrong motivation, they will just get disillusioned and give up. People like stephen bachelor had a really hard time with reconciling with the ban despite after studying many texts which would have talked about Guru devotion and it would have made it very clear to him that following the Guru is the way. In the end, he just gave up on Tibetan Buddhism because he knew he was in it for the wrong reasons and he would rather not face it than to face it and just decide to lose it all.

Imagine if HHDL bans Mahakala rather than Dorje Shugden and many people were forced to give up Mahakala...there will be complete chaos and more people would just give up Tibetan Buddhism as a whole, as compared to just Mahakala because Mahakala is already very well established protector that has been practiced throughout the traditions for more than 1000 years. It would have shake the very foundation that Tibetan Buddhism is based on - Lineages, Guru devotion and loyalty to one's practice and make many people question on the validity of lineages. It would cause people to abandon Tibetan Buddhism and even Buddhism as a whole altogether as it is might be too much for most practitioners, especially the lay ones to take who just wanted some peace and some quietness in their lives with Buddhism and not really for study and practice.

So, Dorje Shugden was chosen because not only he can bear all of those accusations, but also that he can ensure that most of his practitioners are of the highest quality as opposed to just being people who study without questioning and when they are questioned or when they are no longer able to reconcile, they give up everything and not even try to study and find out what is really going on. I do not think any other protector ban would hold up to as much as Dorje Shugden's ban would be and that many people would actually leave Buddhism. When Dorje Shugden was banned, not many people knew about him as opposed to now due to the internet and also due to many people who embrace Buddhism, so the ones that were really against Dorje Shugden were the latter generation of Buddhist practitioners, where Dharma is available freely for them as opposed to the earlier generation, where Dharma is precious and hard to find. The mentality of most Buddhists these days is that they can choose whatever tradition they want and then change whenever they get tired of one, as opposed to the pioneer generation of Buddhists where whatever Dharma that one can get hold on is precious because it is so hard to find and awareness on Buddhism was minimal, so they are more loyal to their practice simply because the scarcity made it precious.

Perhaps, it is the time and also the ability for Dorje Shugden practitioners who are able to go through obstacles that make the ban actually beneficial for us. It is something that we can think about in one way or another to dissolve our animosity towards the Dalai Lama and also to consider the differences in the different generations of Buddhist practice and what Buddhism means to the younger generation of Buddhists.

[dsiluvu]

If he did this to solidify the tradition, then he has succeeded. There are now a far greater number of people practicing Shugden than at any time in history. If he did it to get rid of the tradition, he has failed miserably..

Well He definitely he got this one correct on the dot! And to think that His Holiness did not see this coming is an underestimated thought on our part.

Surely His Holiness would have known that this is exactly what will happened. No spiritual or worldly leader would jeopardise or tarnish their own reputation, popularity and support from His people in this manner like His Holiness, especially if that is the concern. Obviously His Holiness is not bothered about such consequences, which goes to shows He is not playing His role with the 8 worldly concerns!

This brings me to conclude His Holiness is the Boddhisattva - Chenrezig who has a far more bigger vision then any of us could phantom and would risk all of the above and end up looking like the "Bad Guy". This is perhaps the very reason why this website has also concluded that His Holiness and Dorje Shugden are "working together" to spread the Dharma Just do the math... a few thousand Tibetans suffers vs the whole world? Surely the majority out weighs the minority, unfortunately.   

Amazing how it all matches and the dots connect! 

[Ensapa]

Perhaps, the Dalai Lama is trying to separate the wheat from the chaff. Those with weak samaya will not survive this ban and go with the popular belief that Dorje Shugden is bad. Those with strong samaya stick to their teachers even though things are tough and they will win at the end of the race. For one, I will not give up in my practice just because the Dalai Lama says it is wrong.