Why the ban should be lifted!! Is the bigger picture argument justified?

[michaela]

Dear All

I have been thinking for many months about this whole DS issues.  I have also read the work of Trijang Rinpoche on DS, Music Delighting and his biography.  I compared the information of Trijang Rinpoche biography with HHDL's earlier biography:  My Land My People to corroborate some facts and other historical references. 

So the overall chronology is as follows:
-  HHDL was a DS practitioner and devotee.  He received this teaching from his Junior tutor, Trijang Rinpoche
-  Along the way, he somehow implemented the ban and stopped being a DS practitioner.  He claimed that DS is a spirit and shortening his life
-  Not only HHDL implemented the ban, he also forced monks to choose between DS and him causing the split of major Gelug monasteries and the formation of Shar Gaden and Serpom monasteries
-  There are many testimonies of discrimination and threats being experienced by DS practitioners.
-  Many DS practitioners with faith in HHDL believes that he is doing this for a bigger picture.

There are many things that do not make sense to me at all.  HHDL receives this practice from his Guru.  How can one undo a practice and instruction received from one's guru.  Is it because he is believed to be enlightened so he can just undo this practice and encourage others to do the same.  Many of DS practitioners received the practice from their root guru.  Can HHDL forced others to defy their Guru.  Isn't this contradictory to the principles of Guru Devotion?

Regarding the "bigger picture argument" I don't understand.  From all angles, I can no longer justify the bigger picture story as I don't believe one can sacrifice and make few groups of people suffer for the sake of greater good unless these few groups do it willingly.

When responding to this reasoning, please don't use the premise that HHDL is enlightened thus he has his reason because this just cut the whole argument out.  And the purpose of me raising this issue at all is to convince HHDL and CTA that the ban does not make sense and should be lifted soonest as it has caused tremendous suffering to many people.

The more I contemplate, the more I am convinced that the argument that "HHDL is an enlightened being and has his reason for implementing the ban" are often misused to justify tolerance for the ban and for people to hide behind their inactivity to get the ban removed.  We are DS followers because we have great faith towards him through reasoning and contemplating.  We are not the follower of blind faith.

[Zach]

When the ban is lifted the view shall be justified. 

[michaela]

Dear Zach

I don't see how the ban can be justified ever.  It is based on unfounded arguments made years ago by some jealous attendants of the 5th Dalai Lama.

[WisdomBeing]

Dear Zach.
How progressive of you! You’re absolutely stonkingly right. The view will be justified when the ban is lifed! Gosh. That was surprising, but pleasantly so! I didn’t think you were a bigger picture advocate. Welcome on board!

Dear Michaela,
Please allow me to share my perspective. My continuing unwavering faith in the Dalai Lama – despite the seemingly contradictory evidence against him – remains because HH Trijang Rinpoche said so. He told us to not lose faith in Dorje Shugden as well as the Dalai Lama.

As you have read Trijang Rinpoche’s ‘Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors’, you would have seen what Trijang Rinpoche said. If we admire Trijang Rinpoche so much and hold him so dear, we cannot be selective over which advice we follow and which we don’t. If HH Trijang Rinpoche told us to not lose faith in both these iconic beings, there MUST be a reason. As I am way too stupid to see anything from where I am standing, I will just humbly defer to this Buddha, HH Trijang Rinpoche.

[VivianChin]

Yes, we know that HHDL receives this practice from his Guru. But, we cannot conclude that HHDL is defying His Guru's wish because what if the instruction from Trijang Rinpoche to HHDL is to spread this practice using skillful mean? Could this ban be a reverse psychology method that HHDL is using to achieve His Guru's instruction, to prevent Tibetan Buddhism from dying away in Tibet, and to create awareness to the world?
As for DS practitioners, isn't now a perfect time to put their Guru Devotion to test? Making those with faith even stronger? Look at the Shar Gaden now.
On the other end, what is the point of CTA still insist on the ban? Don't they know that the Tibetan in Tibet are practicing it with the support from China government? The life of Tibetan in Tibet now is, in fact much better after China's taking over. If CTA still insist on the ban, do they think the Tibetan will welcome them back knowing they are going to lose the freedom to their practice?  Tibet main concern is the return of HHDL, and even HHDL has toned down his refute of Dorje Shugden. If the CTA is doing this because China is supporting it, then it is just a childish act to the world.

[Ensapa]

There is no telling if the ban was actually Trijang Rinpoche's direct instruction to the Dalai Lama for purposes that we do not know and that HHDL was actually following his Guru's instructions all along. But for me, I think the ban has served its purpose of separating the wheat from the chaff, the political minded and not serious practitioners with dubious intentions are separated from practitioners who are suitable vessels for Tantra, who has held their Guru devotion and have clean samaya ever since they received the practices from their teachers. I see a very distinctive separation between these two categories of practitioners. Those who prefer to worship the Dalai Lama blindly without logic tend to do less study and just drink up whatever the Dalai Lama says. They are also unable to reason out things logically, and neither are they able to explain Dharma properly to others and they have very little or virtually no attainments at all as they become obsessed with the ban.

On the other hand, Dorje Shugden practitioners who held steadfast to their practice despite the ban, criticisms, difficulties and everything else in general is harder for them, carry on their faith to their protector and never waiver tend to get results and tend to do more research and study as compared to the former category of people. They also carry on their teacher's instructions so much stronger and they have unwavering faith towards their own teacher in addition to the protector because without the teacher, there is no protector. If the Guru does not give blessings for the students to practice Dorje Shugden, there will be little or no benefit anyway. Practicing Dorje Shugden without a teacher might benefit but it is only very minimal compared to what can be achieved if the Guru gives the blessings. Also, without Guru devotion, the help from Dorje Shugden is also very minimal therefore the student must have strong Guru devotion as well if they would want to receive Dorje Shugden's blessings and therefore, in order to practice Dorje Shugden, one must also practice the other tenets of the Dharma to receive his help. Dorje Shugden is not here to grant us material gains but he is here to help us progress with the path. He is an enlightened being that can grant us attainments such as Bodhicitta so to request his help only at a secular level is to look down on him and really treating him like a worldly spirit. We should request him for higher attainments and prove the Dalai Lama wrong that he is a spirit! And show the results and attainments as a result of practicing Dorje Shugden!

The ban did nothing but separate these two categories of people and to me, this helps to make sure that a pure lineage survives over time and that pure Dharma that is born from practice and attainments still exist, rather than just something that is based on worship and blind faith that does not have logic. A quick debate with someone from the first category and someone with the second category will reveal that the person in the second category is a lot sharper and more well learned. To me, the ban has served its purpose and it must be lifted soon because the more people are unable to benefit from Dorje Shugden, the deeper the grave that CTA is digging for themselves.

[michaela]

Dear Friends

I made this post not because I don't believe in HHDL or Trijang Rinpoche or choose one Lama against the other.  I have high reverence for HHDL.  But the point of this post is make an argument as to why the ban should be lifted not to further justify the ban.

[Positive Change]

Dear Michaela... allow me to make some comments (RED) to your post here and add some information you may have missed out, to the best of my knowledge, and perhaps then you can view for yourself in totality and come to the conclusion yourself. Perhaps it will never be in totality because we do not have the foresight or the clairvoyance to look beyond and can only hypothesis and conclude based on what we see and perceive.

Dear All

I have been thinking for many months about this whole DS issues.  I have also read the work of Trijang Rinpoche on DS, Music Delighting and his biography.  I compared the information of Trijang Rinpoche biography with HHDL's earlier biography:  My Land My People to corroborate some facts and other historical references. 

How wonderful... I rejoice in your endeavours to read up and get information to help you understand more. That is the very basis of our practice. To question, to find, to contemplate, to conclude and finally to act upon.

So the overall chronology is as follows:
-  HHDL was a DS practitioner and devotee.  He received this teaching from his Junior tutor, Trijang Rinpoche
-  Along the way, he somehow implemented the ban and stopped being a DS practitioner.  He claimed that DS is a spirit and shortening his life

I believe HHDL has not stopped his practice not because I think HHDL is facetious, I dare not... but my belief is purely based on the logic that should HHDL stop his practice, that would go against his guru HH Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang and hence break samaya. That would mean the other practices given by HH Kyabje Trijand Dorje Chang to HHDL would not be of any effect and would cause great demerit. Having said that, I do not think HHDL needs any further attainments as he IS enlightened but nevertheless, I sincerely doubt HHDL would ever break his samaya with any of his gurus.

-  Not only HHDL implemented the ban, he also forced monks to choose between DS and him causing the split of major Gelug monasteries and the formation of Shar Gaden and Serpom monasteries

I believe there was NO force here. HHDL always gave a choice to practice or not practice. If one chooses to practice then one can leave. The hardline enforcement was always carried out by the administration, monasteries, centers themselves... Perhaps to look good in front of HHDL. Maybe that in itself was the wrong motivation for the enforcement. Imagine if everyone stood by their firm believe and strong guru devotion, I do not think any decree from HHDL can and have any effect. Think for a moment about this... If only people really had strong guru devotion, perhaps the enforcement or the ban, would not be as effective. Of course, if one was HHDL student the matter would be different but then again they would not even think of enforcing it upon another who IS NOT HHDL's student!

-  There are many testimonies of discrimination and threats being experienced by DS practitioners.

Who actually carries out these so called acts of discrimination and threats? I do not believe there is any document or letter out there that states clearly HHDL wants to beat or segregate the people. HHDL as I know, gave an advise, a decree of sorts to stop practicing or not be associated with him. That was the worse case scenario. Never did HHDL say, beat and torture people into submission. So who actually is doing all this on the guise or should I say, using HHDL's decree to make it "ok" to do so... at least so they think till karma catches up with the perpetrators!

-  Many DS practitioners with faith in HHDL believes that he is doing this for a bigger picture.

As one should because HHDL is none other than an emanation of Chenrezig, the Buddha of COMPASSION! If there was no bigger picture and all this is for nothing, why do we even propitiate to the Buddhas and aspire to be a Buddha ourselves?

There are many things that do not make sense to me at all.  HHDL receives this practice from his Guru.  How can one undo a practice and instruction received from one's guru.  Is it because he is believed to be enlightened so he can just undo this practice and encourage others to do the same.  Many of DS practitioners received the practice from their root guru.  Can HHDL forced others to defy their Guru.  Isn't this contradictory to the principles of Guru Devotion?

Certainly contradictory and no one except your Guru can say stop practising what your Guru passes on to you. Hence, as I explained above, think about it.... there must be a bigger picture. Do not lose hope... DO NOT give up your practice. Keep it under wraps if you must, but never sever your samaya with your Guru! Flippancy is the evil NOT HHDL.

Regarding the "bigger picture argument" I don't understand.  From all angles, I can no longer justify the bigger picture story as I don't believe one can sacrifice and make few groups of people suffer for the sake of greater good unless these few groups do it willingly.

They suffer not because of HHDL directly, it is the actions of others that enforce the ban using the decree or ban as an excuse to persecute and point fingers. Very very wrong. You may ask why HHDL let's it happen? Well, perhaps that is the bigger picture... sometimes our karma has to run it's course. Even an enlightened being cannot come between you and your karma.

When responding to this reasoning, please don't use the premise that HHDL is enlightened thus he has his reason because this just cut the whole argument out.  And the purpose of me raising this issue at all is to convince HHDL and CTA that the ban does not make sense and should be lifted soonest as it has caused tremendous suffering to many people.

The ban has tremendous positive effects too... do not forget that. If not for the ban, Dorje Shugden's practice would not be as strong and far flung as it is today. In fact, no one apart from those who were practising before the ban would even catch a glimpse or even hear the name. Now Dorje Shugden is on prime time TV, newspaper headlines, viral on the internet and most of all, it is taking root "again" in China, the very turbine that will power the renaissance of Buddhism as China is the only country in this world that has the long historical backing as well as resources NOW.

The more I contemplate, the more I am convinced that the argument that "HHDL is an enlightened being and has his reason for implementing the ban" are often misused to justify tolerance for the ban and for people to hide behind their inactivity to get the ban removed.  We are DS followers because we have great faith towards him through reasoning and contemplating.  We are not the follower of blind faith.

I do hope with what I have shared with you above, you can look deeper into your thoughts and not just think, it is blind faith... it is logical, the inconsistencies are logical, they have logical explanations if one dwell deeper and go beyond the hurt and anger... we are in samsara, all those aspects exist, so do not trust those emotions, trust your own Buddha potential.

[michaela]

Dear Positive Change

Thank you for the thorough response below.  Your argument however, have some weaknesses.  HHDL is aware that the CTA and monasteries are implementing enforcements because he, HHDL, implemented the ban.  He, as a spiritual leader and when he still hold political power, never once condemn the religious discrimination made in the name of the ban.  One does not have to say, please torture, discriminate, etc., just by him being silent, is adequate enough for the CTA and Monasteries to enforce what they think is right that is to enforce the ban.

So, I do not think that blaming all the ugly results on CTA and the monasteries that enforce the ban in the first place is fair.  They would not have acted that way if HHDL did not implement the ban in the first place.  They may have acted with the virtuous intention of not wanting their Guru, in this case HHDL, passes prematurely.

Just like the bible, koran, etc. are prone to misinterpretations, so is the instruction of a high lama, in this case, HHDL.  That is the purpose of living Buddha to come and live among us at all, to straighten our understanding of the teaching, and not push few people further from the truth and create contradictions that confuse people's mind.   

There are many ways to promote a practice, in this case we are talking about DS practice without having to necessarily cause the suffering and confusion in some people's mind.  You can even engage a good PR people to discuss the strategy of promoting a deity.  It does not have to be the ban.  A good example is Jesus Christ, Buddha Shakyamuni, etc. have been famous for many centuries.  I do not think that they celebrity status is attributed to any ban or religious persecution that may have been executed by others in their name. 

For this reason, the ban should be lifted.

Most of us in this forum believe and have been benefited by DS.  The extensive material provided in this website have encourage us to learn, to contemplate and to reason whether DS is indeed an ordinary spirit or a Buddha.  We have also been presented with many testimonial about the negative effect of the ban.  I do not see any reason why the ban should stay at all.

I think, the only thing that is stopping us is the fact most of us believe that HHDL is a living Buddha and must have his reason, and we are encourage to see the bigger picture so to say.  So, we would like the ban to be lifted, but we also believe that the ban should stay because it is serving the bigger picture.  This is an OXYMORON!!

All this problems will end, if HHDL as a highly reverred person and the cause of all this happenings, say "the ban is no longer there and DS is a Buddha, we all should practice him."  Considering his worldwide celebrity status, once he said this, it will lift the sufferings of many people.
 

[Zach]

Dear Zach.
How progressive of you! You’re absolutely stonkingly right. The view will be justified when the ban is lifed! Gosh. That was surprising, but pleasantly so! I didn’t think you were a bigger picture advocate. Welcome on board!

Dear Michaela,
Please allow me to share my perspective. My continuing unwavering faith in the Dalai Lama – despite the seemingly contradictory evidence against him – remains because HH Trijang Rinpoche said so. He told us to not lose faith in Dorje Shugden as well as the Dalai Lama.

As you have read Trijang Rinpoche’s ‘Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors’, you would have seen what Trijang Rinpoche said. If we admire Trijang Rinpoche so much and hold him so dear, we cannot be selective over which advice we follow and which we don’t. If HH Trijang Rinpoche told us to not lose faith in both these iconic beings, there MUST be a reason. As I am way too stupid to see anything from where I am standing, I will just humbly defer to this Buddha, HH Trijang Rinpoche.

Wisdombeing when it so happens that HHDL declares he was wrong and that practitoners should be treated with respect and equality, Then the bigger picture view may have some justification but untill then its a nice hypothesis.

[vajratruth]

   
There are many ways to promote a practice, in this case we are talking about DS practice without having to necessarily cause the suffering and confusion in some people's mind.  You can even engage a good PR people to discuss the strategy of promoting a deity.  It does not have to be the ban.  A good example is Jesus Christ, Buddha Shakyamuni, etc. have been famous for many centuries.  I do not think that they celebrity status is attributed to any ban or religious persecution that may have been executed by others in their name. 

On the contrary persecutions based on belief defined the Christian religion and Christianity is one of the clearest examples of how persecutions on its members brought about its growth.

The persecutions of Christians started with the crucifixion of Jesus on the cross and continued after his death. Jesus was put to death on the cross for no other reason than his belief. He committed no crime against man or state. After his death his followers were hunted down.

Here is a good account of the persecutions:

One year after the crucifixion of Jesus, Stephen was thrown out of Jerusalem and stoned to death. Approximately 2,000 Christians suffered martyrdom in Jerusalem during this period. About 10 years later, James, the elder brother of John, was killed when Herod Agrippa arrived as governor of Judea. Agrippa detested the Christian sect of Jews, and many early disciples were martyred under his rule, including Timon and Parmenas.

Around 54 A.D., Philip, a disciple from Bethsaida, in Galilee, was scourged, thrown into prison, and afterwards crucified. About six years later, Matthew, the tax collector from Nazareth suffered martyrdom by the sword.

James, the brother of Jesus, was beaten and stoned, and finally had his brains bashed out with a club. Matthias was stoned at Jerusalem and then beheaded.

Andrew was the brother of Peter was crucified on a cross, the two ends of which were fixed transversely in the ground (this is where we get the term, St. Andrew's Cross). Mark was dragged to pieces by the people of Alexandria in front of Serapis, their pagan idol.

It appears Peter was crucified upside down and the apostle Paul suffered in the first persecution under Nero.

And the list goes on. And yet as the persecutions were at its most furious, the faith in Jesus grew into an organized religion.

Mass persecution of Christians only stopped after Emperor Constantine of Rome became a Christian himself.

Buddhists on the other hand were not persecuted in India where Buddhism started and the religion largely disappeared from the country of its origin.

Before the invasion of Tibet by China, the religion saw only very moderate growth and only when Tibetan Buddhists were persecuted by the invading Chinese that the religion exploded into the world.

For whatever the reasons are, religious persecutions become the primary factor that drives spiritual breakthroughs.

[Positive Change]

Hi Michaela... I think you may have misunderstood my points. Let me reiterate:

Dear Positive Change

Thank you for the thorough response below.  Your argument however, have some weaknesses.  HHDL is aware that the CTA and monasteries are implementing enforcements because he, HHDL, implemented the ban.  He, as a spiritual leader and when he still hold political power, never once condemn the religious discrimination made in the name of the ban.  One does not have to say, please torture, discriminate, etc., just by him being silent, is adequate enough for the CTA and Monasteries to enforce what they think is right that is to enforce the ban.

I never said HHDL was NOT aware of what was going on. I merely said he did not give the rules of enforcement. Why HHDL chooses not to stop the violence as you say, well, perhaps it is the karma of those involved that have made it not possible for HHDL to intervene. Like I said earlier, when karma ripens, not even an enlightened being can help you. Even if they could, the best course of action would be let the karma run its course... Do you think that with HHDL clairvoyance he cannot see these predicaments way before anyone else can? Hence I say there is a reason behind the silence. Perhaps it is a purification of sorts. Perhaps the suffering needs to happen to exhaust the karma in order for better things to come in the future. As an emanation of Chenrezig the Buddha of compassion, surely HHDL knows best. Unless of course you doubt HHDL.

So, I do not think that blaming all the ugly results on CTA and the monasteries that enforce the ban in the first place is fair.  They would not have acted that way if HHDL did not implement the ban in the first place.  They may have acted with the virtuous intention of not wanting their Guru, in this case HHDL, passes prematurely.

I did not blame anyone... I am merely pointing out the facts. And the fact of the matter is, the enforcements WERE carried out by respective, administration, monasteries and centers themselves. I certainly did not mention CTA. Perhaps you misunderstood me using administration as the CTA (innocent mistake but perhaps a Freudian slip?).

And please do not use his HHDL name as THE excuse for committing non-virtuous actions. It is very much a choice for those committing these human rights abuses... to use HHDL's name to validate or worse justify the action is like a double whammy! So that line of thinking, as a Buddhist is unfounded. The actions are selfish and self serving and NOT for the good of HHDL. If one contemplates on the teachings of Buddhism, the choice would be obvious!

Just like the bible, koran, etc. are prone to misinterpretations, so is the instruction of a high lama, in this case, HHDL.  That is the purpose of living Buddha to come and live among us at all, to straighten our understanding of the teaching, and not push few people further from the truth and create contradictions that confuse people's mind.

The confusion does not come from HHDL, the confusion comes from our lack of understanding and contemplation. You need to get this right! Do not blame the Dharma for the problems in the world... our problems and preconceived notions of situations existed before. 

There are many ways to promote a practice, in this case we are talking about DS practice without having to necessarily cause the suffering and confusion in some people's mind.  You can even engage a good PR people to discuss the strategy of promoting a deity.  It does not have to be the ban.  A good example is Jesus Christ, Buddha Shakyamuni, etc. have been famous for many centuries.  I do not think that they celebrity status is attributed to any ban or religious persecution that may have been executed by others in their name. 

Sure there are many ways to skin a cat. Even Buddha Shakyamuni thought 84,000 ways to enlightenment. But look at the speed in which the spread of Dorje Shugden has gained from the ban. Without the ban, I do not think you or me would have heard of The King... The very fact, we have this website/forum is because of the ban!!! We would not even be having this discussion and debate if not for the ban. So tell me in your mind of minds, is the benefit greater than the suffering... if the answer is yes, then you have your so called "justification"!

For this reason, the ban should be lifted.

Most of us in this forum believe and have been benefited by DS.  The extensive material provided in this website have encourage us to learn, to contemplate and to reason whether DS is indeed an ordinary spirit or a Buddha.  We have also been presented with many testimonial about the negative effect of the ban.  I do not see any reason why the ban should stay at all.

I think, the only thing that is stopping us is the fact most of us believe that HHDL is a living Buddha and must have his reason, and we are encourage to see the bigger picture so to say.  So, we would like the ban to be lifted, but we also believe that the ban should stay because it is serving the bigger picture.  This is an OXYMORON!!

I did not say the band should stay... I merely explained that the ban is there for a reason. It will, I believe be lifted or even become obsolete once it has served it's purpose. For the moment, we need to trust that HHDL is doing the right thing... we hold on to our practice, keep our samaya and fight using the sword of wisdom and stay away from violence.

All this problems will end, if HHDL as a highly reverred person and the cause of all this happenings, say "the ban is no longer there and DS is a Buddha, we all should practice him."  Considering his worldwide celebrity status, once he said this, it will lift the sufferings of many people.

I doubt it would be that easy to reverse the ban coming from HHDL. Why do you think HHDL stepped down from secular office? Perhaps opening the door for the CTA to step in and say, "hang on a second, we have to put a stop to these human rights abuses and we have the power as we hold secular power". Maybe that was the intention of HHDL all along... Because if it were to come from HHDL, then the "plan" especially when it comes to China would be for nothing.

[michaela]

Dear Positive Change

The idea of raising this as post in the first place is not to doubt HHDL and/ or to argue whether he is an enlightened being or not.  It is to show that the ban should be lifted soon and not later.  That is why we have this website and forum post at all.  To push for the lifting of the ban.

These are my responses:

Point A
I never said HHDL was NOT aware of what was going on. I merely said he did not give the rules of enforcement. Why HHDL chooses not to stop the violence as you say, well, perhaps it is the karma of those involved that have made it not possible for HHDL to intervene. Like I said earlier, when karma ripens, not even an enlightened being can help you. Even if they could, the best course of action would be let the karma run its course... Do you think that with HHDL clairvoyance he cannot see these predicaments way before anyone else can? Hence I say there is a reason behind the silence. Perhaps it is a purification of sorts. Perhaps the suffering needs to happen to exhaust the karma in order for better things to come in the future. As an emanation of Chenrezig the Buddha of compassion, surely HHDL knows best. Unless of course you doubt HHDL.

Point B
And please do not use his HHDL name as THE excuse for committing non-virtuous actions. It is very much a choice for those committing these human rights abuses... to use HHDL's name to validate or worse justify the action is like a double whammy! So that line of thinking, as a Buddhist is unfounded. The actions are selfish and self serving and NOT for the good of HHDL. If one contemplates on the teachings of Buddhism, the choice would be obvious!

Being Buddhists we are encouraged to think and to contemplate.  Although in the Buddhist books there are references where a Buddha could not stop negative karma when it has ripened.  In the case of the ban, HHDL does have a choice to lift the ban.  He does have a choice to say, “DS is a Buddha and an enlightened being.”  Then whatever ban related enforcement that have been implemented so far will have no basis anymore and will die on its own.

The confusion does not come from HHDL, the confusion comes from our lack of understanding and contemplation. You need to get this right! Do not blame the Dharma for the problems in the world... our problems and preconceived notions of situations existed before.

In other event and circumstances, I may agree with you Positive change, but in this case, I cannot.  The confusion come from HHDL because:
1.   He said DS is an ordinary spirit and and this is a question of spirit worship
2.   He said DS is shortening his life
Without these statements, the story will be much different now!

Sure there are many ways to skin a cat. Even Buddha Shakyamuni thought 84,000 ways to enlightenment. But look at the speed in which the spread of Dorje Shugden has gained from the ban. Without the ban, I do not think you or me would have heard of The King... The very fact, we have this website/forum is because of the ban!!! We would not even be having this discussion and debate if not for the ban. So tell me in your mind of minds, is the benefit greater than the suffering... if the answer is yes, then you have your so called "justification"! 

Sorry Positive Change.  I learned about the ban years ago, but I did not really care.  I know about DS because it is the practice given by my precious Lama.  The ban has caused a lot of threats and sufferings to DS followers.  We have to be anonymous and practiced secrecy.  It is a huge barrier for my Lama to spread DS teaching.  We all have to live with the fact that if we are found out, my friends and my Lama will receive heavy consequences.  I do not like to sneak around like a thief and to hide when I know that I do not do anything wrong. 

For this reason, the ban should be lifted.


I did not say the band should stay... I merely explained that the ban is there for a reason. It will, I believe be lifted or even become obsolete once it has served it's purpose. For the moment, we need to trust that HHDL is doing the right thing... we hold on to our practice, keep our samaya and fight using the sword of wisdom and stay away from violence. 

My view as mentioned above is clear, that I think the ban should be lifted soon.  With your statement above, it appears that you encourage that the ban should stay for the time being because “you trust that HHDL is doing the right thing.”  I have always respected HHDL as a very intelligent being.  It’s hard to find his fault except for the ban.  One thing that he advised is to keep an inquiring and investigating mind.  As I do now, I investigated and I think the arguments in which the ban is based on are unfounded and could not stand further investigation. 

I doubt it would be that easy to reverse the ban coming from HHDL. Why do you think HHDL stepped down from secular office? Perhaps opening the door for the CTA to step in and say, "hang on a second, we have to put a stop to these human rights abuses and we have the power as we hold secular power". Maybe that was the intention of HHDL all along... Because if it were to come from HHDL, then the "plan" especially when it comes to China would be for nothing.

I believe HHDL stepped down from his secular office because he knows that he will not live forever in this form.  For the love of his people and to ensure smooth transition within Tibetan in exile government and to prevent strive and chaos when he passes away. 

As I mentioned above, if HHDL said from his own mouth that the ban should be lifted because it is based on unfounded arguments and after that encourage monastic communities to debate the fact that DS is indeed enlightened being to clear minds.  I believe, the discrimination and the abuses due to the ban will end sooner than later, because there is no more cause to be served with this.

[Big Uncle]

Well, I like what Wisdom Being said with regards to following Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's advice. I also believe that the Dalai Lama is taking a calculated risk by subjecting Dorje Shugden practitioners through the horror and ordeal of the ban so that millions will gain the Dharma via Dorje Shugden in the future.  Anyway, the ones that are really affected are mainly the monastics these days as the lay people have the option to move away from the Tibetan communities.

No matter how harsh the ban is, the monastics would still be able to weather through the bad times skillfully and without any resentment. They know the Dalai Lama through and through and most of them have no doubt that the Dalai Lama is doing this for a higher purpose and so they persevere. The Dalai Lama knows this and he is putting their faith to the test and in doing so bring millions to Dorje Shugden's practice. It is his skillful way to spread the Dharma.

Having said that, I am not saying that the bigger picture alone justifies the pain and suffering that many Dorje Shugden practitioners experienced. I am sure the Dalai Lama has thought of that and I believe he is willing to bear the consequences of all this along with the loss of reputation that is bound to ensue so that millions will gain the Dharma.

[Positive Change]

Dear Positive Change

The idea of raising this as post in the first place is not to doubt HHDL and/ or to argue whether he is an enlightened being or not.  It is to show that the ban should be lifted soon and not later.  That is why we have this website and forum post at all.  To push for the lifting of the ban.

These are my responses:

Point A
I never said HHDL was NOT aware of what was going on. I merely said he did not give the rules of enforcement. Why HHDL chooses not to stop the violence as you say, well, perhaps it is the karma of those involved that have made it not possible for HHDL to intervene. Like I said earlier, when karma ripens, not even an enlightened being can help you. Even if they could, the best course of action would be let the karma run its course... Do you think that with HHDL clairvoyance he cannot see these predicaments way before anyone else can? Hence I say there is a reason behind the silence. Perhaps it is a purification of sorts. Perhaps the suffering needs to happen to exhaust the karma in order for better things to come in the future. As an emanation of Chenrezig the Buddha of compassion, surely HHDL knows best. Unless of course you doubt HHDL.

Point B
And please do not use his HHDL name as THE excuse for committing non-virtuous actions. It is very much a choice for those committing these human rights abuses... to use HHDL's name to validate or worse justify the action is like a double whammy! So that line of thinking, as a Buddhist is unfounded. The actions are selfish and self serving and NOT for the good of HHDL. If one contemplates on the teachings of Buddhism, the choice would be obvious!

Being Buddhists we are encouraged to think and to contemplate.  Although in the Buddhist books there are references where a Buddha could not stop negative karma when it has ripened.  In the case of the ban, HHDL does have a choice to lift the ban.  He does have a choice to say, “DS is a Buddha and an enlightened being.”  Then whatever ban related enforcement that have been implemented so far will have no basis anymore and will die on its own.

The confusion does not come from HHDL, the confusion comes from our lack of understanding and contemplation. You need to get this right! Do not blame the Dharma for the problems in the world... our problems and preconceived notions of situations existed before.

In other event and circumstances, I may agree with you Positive change, but in this case, I cannot.  The confusion come from HHDL because:
1.   He said DS is an ordinary spirit and and this is a question of spirit worship
2.   He said DS is shortening his life
Without these statements, the story will be much different now!

Sure there are many ways to skin a cat. Even Buddha Shakyamuni thought 84,000 ways to enlightenment. But look at the speed in which the spread of Dorje Shugden has gained from the ban. Without the ban, I do not think you or me would have heard of The King... The very fact, we have this website/forum is because of the ban!!! We would not even be having this discussion and debate if not for the ban. So tell me in your mind of minds, is the benefit greater than the suffering... if the answer is yes, then you have your so called "justification"! 

Sorry Positive Change.  I learned about the ban years ago, but I did not really care.  I know about DS because it is the practice given by my precious Lama.  The ban has caused a lot of threats and sufferings to DS followers.  We have to be anonymous and practiced secrecy.  It is a huge barrier for my Lama to spread DS teaching.  We all have to live with the fact that if we are found out, my friends and my Lama will receive heavy consequences.  I do not like to sneak around like a thief and to hide when I know that I do not do anything wrong. 

For this reason, the ban should be lifted.


I did not say the band should stay... I merely explained that the ban is there for a reason. It will, I believe be lifted or even become obsolete once it has served it's purpose. For the moment, we need to trust that HHDL is doing the right thing... we hold on to our practice, keep our samaya and fight using the sword of wisdom and stay away from violence. 

My view as mentioned above is clear, that I think the ban should be lifted soon.  With your statement above, it appears that you encourage that the ban should stay for the time being because “you trust that HHDL is doing the right thing.” I have always respected HHDL as a very intelligent being.  It’s hard to find his fault except for the ban. One thing that he advised is to keep an inquiring and investigating mind.  As I do now, I investigated and I think the arguments in which the ban is based on are unfounded and could not stand further investigation. 

I doubt it would be that easy to reverse the ban coming from HHDL. Why do you think HHDL stepped down from secular office? Perhaps opening the door for the CTA to step in and say, "hang on a second, we have to put a stop to these human rights abuses and we have the power as we hold secular power". Maybe that was the intention of HHDL all along... Because if it were to come from HHDL, then the "plan" especially when it comes to China would be for nothing.

I believe HHDL stepped down from his secular office because he knows that he will not live forever in this form.  For the love of his people and to ensure smooth transition within Tibetan in exile government and to prevent strive and chaos when he passes away. 

As I mentioned above, if HHDL said from his own mouth that the ban should be lifted because it is based on unfounded arguments and after that encourage monastic communities to debate the fact that DS is indeed enlightened being to clear minds.  I believe, the discrimination and the abuses due to the ban will end sooner than later, because there is no more cause to be served with this.

Dear Michaela... you did not touch once on why you think the ban is in place and that it does indeed have some very tangible positive affects but keep on insisting the ban needs to be removed because it is causing so much suffering, which by the way, is insinuating that HHDL is causing the suffering. Please be careful of wrong views towards a living Buddha! Have you ever wondered why it is hard to find fault (not that one should when it comes to HHDL) with HHDL except for with the ban? Ever thought it is because he wants it to be so?

Of course the ban does not make sense... it is not meant to. It is meant to spur us on... meant to give us the drive amidst adversity and come out "victorious". It is as you say it too, meant to make us contemplate and look deeper and realise why it is in place and NOT stop at why it does not make sense!

I now know why you are so passionate about lifting the ban as you are on the suffering camp and I empathise, but so am I but that does not mean we cannot see beyond our suffering and look at the silver lining in the clouds. It does not mean we should sit back on our laurels and pretend there is nothing wrong. It should push us beyond our comfort zones and spread Dorje Shugden in spite of it all. Find ways to spread that does not harm anyone... take for example the creator/creators of this website, the ban spurred and is still spurring them into making the effort in researching, compiling, designing, updating, maintaining, etc. I really do not think this website would come to be born without the ban and look at how many people are and will benefit from this website alone!!!

That is what I mean by looking beyond the ban and stop focusing on removing the ban. When you focus on spreading the truth, the ban will eventually fall to the wayside... you do not need HHDL to do that. That is just the easy way out... and no disrespect, the selfish way out!

I know you mean well and I take what you say to heart naturally... of course there is suffering, of course we need to remove the ban but it is how we remove the ban that is in question here. Because that will show our true motivation towards Dorje Shugden!