Nuns behaving badly and disrespectful

[Barzin]

Sad.  Very sad to see this side of nuns and holy sanghas.  I choose to ignore it but i can't simple there is so much anger and hatred towards a deity that have supported them life after life.  So how much dharma actually gone inside even one has taken vows and put on robes and vow to benefit people?  This is utterly disturbing for people and to not trust the dharma because even nuns have actions of this kind.  So it falls back to the question, do you keep your practice and follow your guru or His Holiness?  This has always been the debate.  Either way, there is no definite solution.  However, seeing nuns to conduct such actions is totally go against both guru and His Holiness...  One might argue that without a guru, what is the purpose of a statue after all?  We all rely on guru devotions in our practice, so do we keep the statue or abandon the guru?  In my opinion, you don't have to go to that extreme to spit on it and destroy it.  Coz it doesn't prove anything except for anger, ignorant and silly...  I wonder what is the karmic repercussion.. sigh.  It is really sad to see this from sanghas...

[DharmaSpace]

See the more extensive post here http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=13688

Isn't part of the refuge commitments to not destroy a buddhist / buddha image and treat all buddhist image as it is the buddha itself. If the refuge is undermined then what is the basis of holding on to higher vows like Bodhisattva and even tantric vows?  Well if Buddhist nuns why can't the Taliban blow up the Bamiyan statues? Aren't we shooting ourselves in the feet?

I wish they had stop to think, who made the nunnery for them it was Trijang DorjeChang who became who he is through the practice of Dorje Shugden and Dorje Sugden cared for Trijang Lama since he was a child? If DS was a demon he would have helped Trijang Rinpoche to gear towards samsara, women, delusions and alcohol more won't he?  And this information is not hidden and obscured cant the nuns tell right from wrong ?   

[dondrup]

In the eyes of the public, it is very unbecoming of the nuns who had gotten rid of the Dorje Shugden statue in the ways as described. It doesn’t make sense at all that all this while the nuns had respectfully worshipped and prayed to Lord Shugden as Buddha.  Then their minds could just make a 180-degree shift and turned around to despise Dorje Shugden just because HH Dalai Lama advised them to abandon Dorje Shugden.  It shows the levels of their practices and attainments. 

How could they lose faith in the founders and lineage masters of their monastery who had been practising Dorje Shugden?

The nuns actions had brought disrepute to the founders of this monastery, their monastery and Buddhism! How could they be wearing the sangha robes and still be the ambassadors of Buddhism when they had been disrespectful to Buddha Dorje Shugden? 

[kris]

In the video (transcript):

They asked the Dalai Lama if they could destroy the Dorje Shugden statue.
Then Dalai Lama replied, "the 150 of your members are following my advice, and showing your support. Thank you very much.. Regarding the statue, to simply destroy it would not be good. First, you must do a ritual ceremony to destroy it, afterwards, you may destroy it".

Actually, HH Dalai Lama didn't really answer the nuns if they CAN destroy it, and Dalai Lama certainly didn't encourage them to destroy the statue. May be they are too eager to get into Dalai Lama's good book?

Also, that leads to my another question: hypothetically, let's say Dalai Lama told the nun to destroy the statue. If the nuns are just following what their Guru said, is it wrong? After all, they are only following the Guru's instruction?

Also, destroying statue will inflict negative Karma, so, who will get the bad karma? The person who gave instruction (Guru) or the person carried it out (nuns)? Or both? But Dalai Lama is enlightened, He will not get bad karma, right?

[ratanasutra]

It so sad to see the nuns destroy statue out of their ignorant, they are so proud to do it and not even realize how negative karma they have created from destroy Dorje Shugden statue. If they know about it, i won't think this will be happen.

I just wondering if they don't want to pray to him anymore, then they can just give to other who is still treasure and worship him that will be the wiser and better way right? What they have done really reflect of  how the narrow mind of this nuns that just want to it to satisfy their ego.

Buddhist is promote wisdom, loving, kindness but i didn't see or feel none of them in this actions so how can we call this actions as Buddhism?   

[ratanasutra]

If it is the instruction from the HH.Dalai Lama for the nun to destroy the statue, i will say that as the HH.Dalai Lama is an emanation of Avaloskiteshvara who i believe attained the higher practice that he can purify the negative karma for those nun after they destroyed it.

But again, i believe HH.Dalai Lama will only do that if it will bring tremendous benefit to others, if it not and only create more confusion, wrong view or misunderstanding, i won't think he will do it as from his bodhicitta mind are always do things to benefit others only.

[DharmaSpace]

Even the Dalai Lama did not order the statue of Dorje Shugden to be destroyed at the old Gaden Lachi so what was the basis that the nuns took to destroy the statue. The statue can be remade back but how will they repair their samayas with Trijang Dorje Chang? The Dalai Lama asked the Dorje Shugden statue to be stored away not destroyed. He asked for the DS statue to be removed from the Lachi.

Read about it here it is in Shar Gaden part of the monastery perhaps waiting for the time to be reinstated once again! 
http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=10755

[diablo1974]

Doing this to a buddha is utterly unacceptable to me, i do not think there is a need to do this especially from the ordained people. HHDL bans it but did not order them to humiliate and ridicule any form of worship. As in the ordained communities, i can accept peaceful strikes and violentless protests. But not uncompasssionate acts such as this. It pains me when i see DS statue being treated like unwanted trash.

Karma is definitely created when one's destroys any holy objects as these objects has the power to calm one's mind and most importantly to plant the seed of enlightenment... Just imagined if you have destroy an object which is the cause of enlightenment....how heavy would the karma be.

[Karla]

Have any of you even gone to the nunnery and spoken to the nuns there to find out why they are doing this?
I agree, it is not a good thing to destroy any image of worship. It's disrespectful to anyone to do that. Like you said, it's not becoming of any ordained person to act like this, no matter what image it is because it is sacred to someone out there.
But here again, all of you just talking away repeating the same points. YES WE KNOW ALREADY that it's a bad thing, the nuns did not act in accordance with their vows, it's distasteful blah blah blah but have any of you even gone to enquire and find out what really happened and what motivated them to do this? Maybe they feel regret now and have repented. Maybe they have already done something positive and good to redeem this action. Maybe it was some kind of instruction they had to follow. I mean there are many pressures within the monastic community that people don't know about. I could just as easily turn around and say, "look at all those disloyal monks who are swearing against the practice of dorje shugden. What traitors they are breaking samaya with their gurus and practice like that." I mean they are being forced to do this right? Or so you say? So how do you know maybe these nuns are also pressured into it also somehow?
You don't appreciate people criticising shugdenpas. but then you shouldn't criticise either.

[fruven]

The incident of the nuns dragging the Dorje Shugden statue by a string tied to the neck happened in Dhramsala on a public place. Those who done the same actions to a stray animal would be scorn, what more a holy statue of a Buddha consecrated by the tutor of the Dalai Lama, who is also a high lama. Dhramsala is such a holy place, hosting HHDL official residence and offices, and so many other monasteries and temples in exile from Tibet. One can only imagine what kind of image those nuns were potraying to the laymen on the streets, witnessing such acts by the holy sangha members. Are we not taught to regard any image of a Buddha as an actual Buddha? It is also very disturbing to watch monks in the video stoning another monastery. All this is done in the name of wanting to get in the good books of HHDL?

I for one would not touch or throw away objects of worships whether it is divine, or spirit. It is even scarier to throw or destroy an object linked with a spirit because you would have disturbed it and it can harm you back. In actual fact thinking that it is a enlightened being and it cannot harm us, we disrespect towards it, we are admitting Dorje Shugden to be a Buddha. Since he cannot harm we conclude wrongly we can do as we please. Such acts will give wrong impression to common lay people of how to respect a Buddha image or others' faith object or image of worship. It point towards not respecting your guru, seniority and someone who is more knowledgeable but without any fame or power.

[Ensapa]

Sometimes it is a very sad sight to see Tibetans and even monastics who are tempted by the promise of the Dalai Lama's blessing or that they will be praised by the Dalai Lama or that they will be included into his circle or even worse, for worldly fame because none of those would aid in their Dharma practice at all. What's more is that the statue was consecrated by Trijang Rinpoche who also founded the monastery. Does it even make sense at all to go against the nunnery's founder just to be in the Dalai Lama's group?! Should the nuns be expelled for going against the founder of the monastery? If Dharma practice is aligning yourself to the Dalai Lama, shouldnt the millions of people around the globe who view the Dalai Lama as their spiritual guide be enlightened already? Sigh, the lack of logic in people astounds me sometimes.

[diamond girl]

The sight of nuns behaving in such a manner still shocks me despite reading this thread for the second time. The Sangha is one of the 3 jewels in which we can safely take refuge in because they dedicate their lives to learn and practice pure Dharma. How is it possible for us to:

1) take refuge in the Sangha when their action does not reflect the practice of Dharma? is this not destructive to our minds?

2) Have solid faith in the 3 jewels that are inter-related especially in this case when the act of destroying holy images is endorsed by the ultimate authority - H.H the 14th Dalai Lama!? In other words, the actions of the nuns in the video will sway the respect and faith people have towards Buddhadharma. Impossible.   

One may say that Dorje Shugden is not a holy image and that is why the nuns and H.H had it destroyed. However, contemplating over this situation on a basic human level: Is it acceptable to destroy property that does not belong to you simply because you do not condone to it? Even a child will respond "no".

If it is felt that one has the responsibility to protect society as a whole against Dorje Shugden, it should not be executed in this manner. Open communication and debate would certainly be a better representation of a Dharma practitioner.

Again, from both a secular and spiritual level, what the nuns did was inappropriate and resulted in great pain and suffering by others. Where is the compassion may I ask?

[Ensapa]

The sight of nuns behaving in such a manner still shocks me despite reading this thread for the second time. The Sangha is one of the 3 jewels in which we can safely take refuge in because they dedicate their lives to learn and practice pure Dharma. How is it possible for us to:

1) take refuge in the Sangha when their action does not reflect the practice of Dharma? is this not destructive to our minds?

2) Have solid faith in the 3 jewels that are inter-related especially in this case when the act of destroying holy images is endorsed by the ultimate authority - H.H the 14th Dalai Lama!? In other words, the actions of the nuns in the video will sway the respect and faith people have towards Buddhadharma. Impossible.   

One may say that Dorje Shugden is not a holy image and that is why the nuns and H.H had it destroyed. However, contemplating over this situation on a basic human level: Is it acceptable to destroy property that does not belong to you simply because you do not condone to it? Even a child will respond "no".

If it is felt that one has the responsibility to protect society as a whole against Dorje Shugden, it should not be executed in this manner. Open communication and debate would certainly be a better representation of a Dharma practitioner.

Again, from both a secular and spiritual level, what the nuns did was inappropriate and resulted in great pain and suffering by others. Where is the compassion may I ask?

In any case, the nuns have chosen the easy way out in Dharma practice: they think that by making the Dalai Lama happy, it equates to spiritual growth. But the truth is that nothing but hard work and putting the already taught Dharma into practice can bring us to spiritual progress. In fact, many people seem to have a misconception that by making the Dalai Lama happy or by going to his side, they can ignore their vows and they can act in whatever way that they think is aligned with the Dalai Lama, even if it means going against the founder of their own temple or their own guru. this incident is a glaring example of how such attitudes are harmful.

[beggar]

The hard truth of the matter is that no matter what these nuns' intentions were for destroying the statue (and I'm sure a part of them feel they are being sincere in their upholding of the Dalai Lama's instructions etc), what the world sees is only this: Nuns behaving badly. Nuns destroying a buddha statue. Nuns stepping on what is clearly an object of faith for other people.

Not everyone understands the many complexities of the ban on Dorje Shugden. In this instance however, it's not necessary to understand the ban to recognize that reactions and actions like this of any spiritual practitioner - least of all a nun - is not acceptable. Anyone will look upon these nuns and wonder what it is about their religion, teachings and practices that condones destroying objects of worship, whether they believe in that object or not. You would never expect to see any Buddhist defacing a church or dragging out items form a synagogue and destroying it publicly. So what more that they are destroying a deity from within their own religion? Sure, they may not wish to worship this deity but any logical thinking person will ask why they need to resort to such aggressive, destructive actions against any practice within their own religion?

And this is where it's most important to realise that while we may think we're acting in accordance with the Dalai Lama's ban, we need to also consider how we are reflecting our teachers, lineage and religion in our actions. The Dalai Lama has also preached kindness, not harming anyone, tolerance and patience. There is none of this in the action of destroying this statue. It is all the worse that they are doing this in the name of supporting the Dalai Lama's ban on Dorje Shugden, for the rest of the world will look upon them and wonder if this is the kind of behaviour that the Dalai Lama - nobel peace laureate - encourages among his followers: to destroy another's religion in this way? To act in such vulgar, aggressively, offensive ways? The world will look upon them and think, "If this is what Buddhism encourages and what the Dalai Lama stands for, then I will have none of it."

So for all they are trying to do to uphold their religion, preserve religious purity and all that, they're doing a good job at destroying the very thing they are trying to protect.

[Ensapa]

The hard truth of the matter is that no matter what these nuns' intentions were for destroying the statue (and I'm sure a part of them feel they are being sincere in their upholding of the Dalai Lama's instructions etc), what the world sees is only this: Nuns behaving badly. Nuns destroying a buddha statue. Nuns stepping on what is clearly an object of faith for other people.

Not everyone understands the many complexities of the ban on Dorje Shugden. In this instance however, it's not necessary to understand the ban to recognize that reactions and actions like this of any spiritual practitioner - least of all a nun - is not acceptable. Anyone will look upon these nuns and wonder what it is about their religion, teachings and practices that condones destroying objects of worship, whether they believe in that object or not. You would never expect to see any Buddhist defacing a church or dragging out items form a synagogue and destroying it publicly. So what more that they are destroying a deity from within their own religion? Sure, they may not wish to worship this deity but any logical thinking person will ask why they need to resort to such aggressive, destructive actions against any practice within their own religion?

And this is where it's most important to realise that while we may think we're acting in accordance with the Dalai Lama's ban, we need to also consider how we are reflecting our teachers, lineage and religion in our actions. The Dalai Lama has also preached kindness, not harming anyone, tolerance and patience. There is none of this in the action of destroying this statue. It is all the worse that they are doing this in the name of supporting the Dalai Lama's ban on Dorje Shugden, for the rest of the world will look upon them and wonder if this is the kind of behaviour that the Dalai Lama - nobel peace laureate - encourages among his followers: to destroy another's religion in this way? To act in such vulgar, aggressively, offensive ways? The world will look upon them and think, "If this is what Buddhism encourages and what the Dalai Lama stands for, then I will have none of it."

So for all they are trying to do to uphold their religion, preserve religious purity and all that, they're doing a good job at destroying the very thing they are trying to protect.

I doubt that they were spiritually motivated anyway because the only reason why they destroyed the statue was to please the Dalai Lama and gain favor points with the Dalai Lama. It was entirely for selfish reasons and they are not really nuns on that aspect because they dont represent Buddhism at all. You're right in that sense that these nuns' wanton destruction of a Buddha image and showing disrespect and violence to a Buddhist image will certainly plant a lot of misunderstandings and negative imprints to people who see them. It is a very sad day that these nuns are still considered to be Buddhist nuns and are still allowed to remain in the monastery as it is a sign of degenerate times.