Which Would You Choose?

[icy]

The quality of one's rebirth in the next life is determined by the quality of one's mental activity in this life. Generally speaking, we have no power to choose how we are born; it is dependent on karmic forces. However, the period near the time of death is very influential in terms of activating one from among the many karmas that a person has already accumulated, and, therefore, if one makes particular effort at generating a virtuous attitude at that time, there is an opportunity to strengthen and activate a virtuous karma. Moreover, when one has developed high realization and has gained control over how one will be reborn, it is possible to take what is called "reincarnation" rather than mere rebirth.

[Positive Change]

Now this has long been the adage of many a discussions amongst intellectuals and spiritual representatives alike. What I have come across as interesting is as follows. What do you think with regards to what is presented here:

Reincarnation in Buddhism

Would you be surprised if I told you that reincarnation is not a Buddhist teaching? If so, be surprised... it isn't.

"Reincarnation" normally is understood to be the transmigration of a soul to another body after death. There is no such teaching in Buddhism. One of the most fundamental doctrines of Buddhism is anatta*, or anatman... no soul or no self. There is no permanent essence of an individual self that survives death.

However, Buddhists often speak of "rebirth." If there is no soul or permanent self, what is it that is "reborn"?

What Is the Self?

The Buddha taught that what we think of as our "self"... our ego, self-consciousness and personality... is a creation of the skandhas**. Very simply, our bodies, physical and emotional sensations, conceptualizations, ideas and beliefs, and consciousness work together to create the illusion of a permanent, distinctive "me."

The Buddha said, “Oh, Bhikshu, every moment you are born, decay, and die.” He meant that, every moment, the illusion of "me" renews itself. Not only is nothing carried over from one life to the next; nothing is carried over from one moment to the next.

This takes us to the Three Marks of Existence, in particular anicca, "impermanence." The Buddha taught that all phenomena, including beings, are in a constant state of flux... always changing, always becoming, always dying.

What Is Reborn?

In his book What the Buddha Taught (1959), Theravada scholar Walpola Rahula asked,

"If we can understand that in this life we can continue without a permanent, unchanging substance like Self or Soul, why can't we understand that those forces themselves can continue without a Self or Soul behind them after the non-functioning of the body?

"When this physical body is no more capable of functioning, energies do not die with it, but continue to take some other shape or form, which we call another life. Physical and mental energies which constitute the so-called being have within themselves the power to take a new form, and grow gradually and gather force to the full."

Zen teacher John Daido Loori said,

"... the Buddha’s experience was that when you go beyond the skandhas, beyond the aggregates, what remains is nothing. The self is an idea, a mental construct. That is not only the Buddha’s experience, but the experience of each realized Buddhist man and woman from 2,500 years ago to the present day. That being the case, what is it that dies? There is no question that when this physical body is no longer capable of functioning, the energies within it, the atoms and molecules it is made up of, don’t die with it. They take on another form, another shape. You can call that another life, but as there is no permanent, unchanging substance, nothing passes from one moment to the next. Quite obviously, nothing permanent or unchanging can pass or transmigrate from one life to the next. Being born and dying continues unbroken but changes every moment."

Thought Moment to Thought Moment

The teachers tell us that "me" is a series of thought-moments. Each thought-moment conditions the next thought-moment. In the same way, the last thought-moment of one life conditions the first thought-moment of another life, which is the continuation of a series. "The person who dies here and is reborn elsewhere is neither the same person, nor another," Walpola Rahula wrote.

This is not easy to understand, and cannot be fully understood with intellect alone. For this reason, many schools of Buddhism emphasize a meditation practice that enables intimate realization of the illusion of self.

Karma and Rebirth

The force that propels this continuity is karma. Karma is another Asian concept that Westerners (and, for that matter, a lot of Easterners) often misunderstand. Karma is not fate, but simple action and reaction, cause and effect. For a more complete explanation, please see "Karma for Buddhists 101: Introduction to the Buddhist Understanding of Karma."

Very simply, Buddhism teaches that karma means "volitional action." Any thought, word or deed conditioned by desire, hate, passion and illusion create karma. When the effects of karma reach across lifetimes, karma brings about rebirth.

The Persistence of Belief in Reincarnation

There is no question that many Buddhists, East and West, continue to believe in individual reincarnation. Parables from the sutras and "teaching aids" like the Tibetan Wheel of Life tend to reinforce this belief.

The Rev. Takashi Tsuji, a Jodo Shinshu priest, wrote about belief in reincarnation:

"It is said that the Buddha left 84,000 teachings; the symbolic figure represents the diverse backgrounds characteristics, tastes, etc. of the people. The Buddha taught according to the mental and spiritual capacity of each individual. For the simple village folks living during the time of the Buddha, the doctrine of reincarnation was a powerful moral lesson. Fear of birth into the animal world must have frightened many people from acting like animals in this life. If we take this teaching literally today we are confused because we cannot understand it rationally.

"...A parable, when taken literally, does not make sense to the modern mind. Therefore we must learn to differentiate the parables and myths from actuality."

What's the Point?

People often turn to religion for doctrines that provide simple answers to difficult questions. Buddhism doesn't work that way. Merely believing in some doctrine about reincarnation or rebirth has no purpose. Buddhism is a practice that enables experiencing illusion as illusion and reality as reality.

The Buddha taught that our delusional belief in "me" causes our many dissatisfactions with life (dukkha). When the illusion is experienced as illusion, we are liberated.


*Definition:
The doctrine of anatman (or anatta in Pali) is one of the central teachings of Buddhism. According to this doctrine, there is no "self" in the sense of a permanent, integral, autonomous being within an individual existence. What we think of as our self, our personality and ego, are temporary creations of the skandhas.

Anatman is sometimes misunderstood to mean that nothing exists, but this is not what Buddhism teaches. It's more accurate to say that there is existence, but that we understand it in a one-sided and delusional way.


**Definition:

The Sanskrit word skandha means "heap" or "aggregate." The Buddha taught that an individual is a combination of five aggregates of existence, called the Five Skandhas. These are:

1. Form
2. Sensation
3. Perception
4. Mental formations
5. Consciousness

Various schools of Buddhism do not interpret the skandhas in exactly the same way. Generally, the first skandha is our physical form. The second is made up of our feelings, emotional and physical, and our senses: seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling.

The third skandha, perception, takes in most of what we call thinking: conceptualization, cognition, reasoning. This also includes the recognition that occurs when an organ comes into contact with an object. Perception can be thought of as "that which identifies." The object perceived may be a physical object or a mental one, such as an idea.

The fourth skandha, mental formations, includes habits, prejudices and predispositions. Our volition, or willfulness, also is part of the fourth skandha, as are attention, faith, conscientiousness, pride, desire, vindictiveness, and many other mental states both virtuous and not virtuous. The causes and effects of karma are especially important to the fourth skandha.

The fifth skandha, consciousness, is awareness of or sensitivity to an object, but without conceptualization. Once there is awareness, the third skandha might recognize the object and assign a concept-value to it, and the fourth skandha might react with desire or revulsion or some other mental formation. The fifth skandha is explained in some schools as base that ties the experience of life together.

The Buddha taught that our egos, personalities and the sense that the "self" is something distinctive and permanent enclosed within our bodies, are just illusory effects of the skandhas.

Also Known As: Aggregates of existence; the Five Heaps

[Dorje Pakmo]

The quality of one's rebirth in the next life is determined by the quality of one's mental activity in this life. Generally speaking, we have no power to choose how we are born; it is dependent on karmic forces. However, the period near the time of death is very influential in terms of activating one from among the many karmas that a person has already accumulated, and, therefore, if one makes particular effort at generating a virtuous attitude at that time, there is an opportunity to strengthen and activate a virtuous karma. Moreover, when one has developed high realization and has gained control over how one will be reborn, it is possible to take what is called "reincarnation" rather than mere rebirth.

Dear Icy,
From my understanding, Rebirth and Reincarnation has different meaning.
The concepts are similar, but actually are different.

Rebirth.
When an individual dies, and has no control over the mind. He / She will take rebirth, depending on his / her Karma, accumulated and present, and the state of mind during the time of death will determine the rebirth. The mind depending on the Karma of the individual will take rebirth in a new form. This new form will not have any memories from the previous form but the Karma brought from previous form will determine whether the rebirth is a pleasant or unpleasant one, in other words not choice or volition.
 
Reincarnation
Happens when an individual has achieved enlightenment and not subjected to the law of Karma. These individuals are in full control over their rebirth. They can choose to take rebirth in any forms and in any circumstances they want. A reincarnated person is able to retain memories and have characteristics from previous lives.

Hence, it would be best if we can choose to be reincarnated. But before we can choose, we must first achieve enlightenment. To achieve enlightenment, we must always be sincere in our practice, pure in our motivation, and virtuous in our actions.

[Big Uncle]

The quality of one's rebirth in the next life is determined by the quality of one's mental activity in this life. Generally speaking, we have no power to choose how we are born; it is dependent on karmic forces. However, the period near the time of death is very influential in terms of activating one from among the many karmas that a person has already accumulated, and, therefore, if one makes particular effort at generating a virtuous attitude at that time, there is an opportunity to strengthen and activate a virtuous karma. Moreover, when one has developed high realization and has gained control over how one will be reborn, it is possible to take what is called "reincarnation" rather than mere rebirth.

Dear Icy,
From my understanding, Rebirth and Reincarnation has different meaning.
The concepts are similar, but actually are different.

Rebirth.
When an individual dies, and has no control over the mind. He / She will take rebirth, depending on his / her Karma, accumulated and present, and the state of mind during the time of death will determine the rebirth. The mind depending on the Karma of the individual will take rebirth in a new form. This new form will not have any memories from the previous form but the Karma brought from previous form will determine whether the rebirth is a pleasant or unpleasant one, in other words not choice or volition.
 
Reincarnation
Happens when an individual has achieved enlightenment and not subjected to the law of Karma. These individuals are in full control over their rebirth. They can choose to take rebirth in any forms and in any circumstances they want. A reincarnated person is able to retain memories and have characteristics from previous lives.

Hence, it would be best if we can choose to be reincarnated. But before we can choose, we must first achieve enlightenment. To achieve enlightenment, we must always be sincere in our practice, pure in our motivation, and virtuous in our actions.

The law of karma as expounded by the Buddha was meant for us to understand that we have the power to choose the quality of our next rebirth. It is just that we didn't know about it until the Buddha and lineage Lamas after him taught us the sublime method to break this endless cycle of death and rebirth. Therefore, the lineage Lamas along with a great number of yogis, Mahasiddhas and practitioners have transcended Samsara.

However, many who have transcended Samsara, choose to reincarnate anyway because they are compelled by their great compassion for all beings. The significant difference with such incarnate beings is the fact that they have total control over their death and rebirth. And no matter where they take rebirth, they will not be distracted and will find their way to benefit others. This is a quality of a high level Bodhisattva like the Dalai Lama, Panchen Lama, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, Kyabje Zong Rinpoche and so forth.

[dsiluvu]

The law of karma as expounded by the Buddha was meant for us to understand that we have the power to choose the quality of our next rebirth. It is just that we didn't know about it until the Buddha and lineage Lamas after him taught us the sublime method to break this endless cycle of death and rebirth. Therefore, the lineage Lamas along with a great number of yogis, Mahasiddhas and practitioners have transcended Samsara.

However, many who have transcended Samsara, choose to reincarnate anyway because they are compelled by their great compassion for all beings. The significant difference with such incarnate beings is the fact that they have total control over their death and rebirth. And no matter where they take rebirth, they will not be distracted and will find their way to benefit others. This is a quality of a high level Bodhisattva like the Dalai Lama, Panchen Lama, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, Kyabje Zong Rinpoche and so forth.

An enlightened person sees birth as an extension of life, and death as the start of another life. Birth is not just about living, and death is not just about dying. When we look at birth and death as one, what is there to rejoice over or to grieve about?

When we see someone who is one hundred years old, we often congratulate him by saying, "May you live to be one hundred and twenty." Every year we celebrate our Birthday. Let us think about this for a moment. Is the occasion of someone reaching a particular age of 30, 40, 50 or 100 really a cause for celebration? If a man were to live to be 100, his 80 year old son might one day become sick and pass away. One after another, his 60 year old grandchild and 40 year old great-grandchild might also pass way. This old man could no longer enjoy the happiness of spending time with his grandchildren. As he lived through the death of his children and grandchildren, he was left all alone. In a person's life, there is nothing harder to bear than the death of a child. So, longevity does not necessarily mean happiness. Often, with longevity come loneliness, helplessness, and physical debility.

Just as we should not be obsessed with longevity, we should also not fear death. The mentioning of death often provokes many frightful images in people. In Chinese culture, it is a huge taboo to even talk about it... it is considered "bad luck" and they will not even use, be in a home, be part of the no 4 as it sounds like death. If we can really understand death, we will see that dying is not unlike getting a passport that allows us to travel to another country. How free! Death is a path that we must all travel. How can we face death in such a way that we feel prepared and not overwhelmed, not attached, no regrets? To do this, we must understand death, the nature... which like what Big Uncle said above "we have the power to choose the quality of our next rebirth"!

[dsiluvu]

So how do we affect our own next rebirth? How do we want to die??? Lets take a closer look...

How Does the Cycle of Life and Death Come About?

What is this cycle of birth and death? How does this cycle of life and death come about? What determines our improvement or deterioration? According to Buddhism, it is determined by our karma. Karma is the energy or influence that is left behind by our actions. Due to our past karma, we are born as human beings in this life. Similarly, the good and evil karma of this life and past lives will also affect our future lives. Many Buddhists think of ‘karma’ as ‘evil karma’ only. This is not true. The energy that is left behind by our actions or thoughts, be it good or evil, is referred to as ‘karma’. Our future is determined by our karma. Thus, the Buddha Dharma says, "We reap what we sow".

Between our past and present, which bad or good karma, will determine our next life? There are three situations as stated in the following:

a) Strong karma

When we are at the brink of death, the good and evil karma we have generated in our life will appear in front of our eyes. Usually we generate a lot of good or bad karma every day. At the moment of our death, if strong good or evil thoughts arise, they will determine our future.

For example, the memory of killing one’s own father is unforgettable. The thought will always be in one’s mind. At the moment of death, this evil scene (karmic action) will appear in front of one’s eyes. Similarly, one who is very filial will see their own filiality and good deeds at the moment of their last breath. This is similar to a debtor. At the end of the year, all creditors will come and chase after the debtor for their money, and the debtor will pay the creditor who applies him the greatest pressure first.

b) Habitual Influence

Some people may have karma that is neither extremely good nor extremely bad. In these circumstances, habitual actions may become the major influence on their fate. Accumulated minor evil actions will produce an evil result. Accumulated minor good deeds will produce a good result. There is a saying;

        "Although a drop of water is tiny, it may gradually fill a big container."

The Buddha also gave us an example: If there is a big tree that is leaning to the east, it will certainly fall towards the east when being axed.

The Chinese always say: "At the time of death, the ghosts that feel injustice will come and ask for one’s life." Those who killed pigs and goats will see pigs and goats, and those who killed snakes will see snakes. If we see these, we will have great suffering. We may tremble with intense fear, and lose our minds. In fact, the pigs, goats and other animals that have been killed would have been reborn according to their own karma. However, those who did the killing will tend to continue to act in an evil way. They will accumulate more evil karma. Thus, at the moment of death the karmic action (cows, snakes, pigs, or goats etc. requesting recompense of life for lives taken) will appear in front of us and we will receive retribution according to our karma.

There is a story about a person who robbed and murdered a rich man in the middle of the night. After the incident, he felt that the rich man was always following him asking for his money and life. In time the murderer was frightened to death. Later, it was found that the rich man was only injured and was still alive. This anecdote illustrates that evil ghosts do not come to ask for one’s life. The Buddha’s explanation of karmic action explains the result perfectly. Those who did evil will see suffering at the last moment before death overtakes them, and those who behaved well will be peaceful and happy at that last moment. So we should be careful about the habitual karma that we generate daily!

c) The Last Thought

Some people may not have accomplished great things; perpetrated particularly evil deeds; nor established distinct habitual actions. During the last moment of their lives such people may suddenly think of something. This last thought, whether good or evil, will influence their next rebirth. The Buddha’s teachings encourage those who are seriously ill to remember and to recite the merits of the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha and the merits of Dana and of following the precepts. This will help us to have good thoughts. Relying on the energy of these good thoughts, we may have a good rebirth. Some may generate a lot of good karma during normal times, but may be nervous or sad during their last breath. This may cause evil thoughts to arise and hence result in a poor rebirth. This is analogous to a merchant who has done good business throughout the year but who does not manage his business affairs well during the closing period of the financial year and thus causes the whole year’s effort to be wasted.

When someone is about to die, whether they are young or old, we should try not to cry, as this may affect the dying person’s emotional state and cause them suffering. We should advise the person to let everything go and to think about the Buddha, Dharma, Sangha, good acts of Dana, and other meritorious deeds that they may have done.

It is as if our business was not very good during the year, but because of skilful management during the crucial end of year period, we may nevertheless have a happy new year. However, we should remember that our daily effort is still important. It is not rendered insignificant compared to the last minute’s effort. If we habitually commit evil deeds it is hardly to be expected that we will have good thoughts at our death. If we habitually accumulate great merits, or have more modest tendency to do good, then with the assistance of others in recalling these merits during the moment of our last breath, we may have a better rebirth.

Other Defilements Necessary for Rebirth

How does rebirth occur after our death? Normally death refers to the moment when one’s breathing and mental activities have stopped, and the body temperature drops. On the other hand, birth refers to the time when the baby is born. However, according to the teachings of the Buddha, our past karma is the main cause of the new life which comes about when the father’s sperm cell combines with an egg from the mother. This is referred to as conception: the initiation of the birth process. Thus, those who carry out abortions are in fact committing the evil deed of killing. Why are we reborn after death? It is not inevitable that everyone will be reborn. Some may be reborn and others may not. Rebirth is caused by one’s karma. With good karma we will produce good fruit. With evil karma we will suffer evil results.

If we generate good and evil karma all the time, does this mean that our cycle of life and death will continue endlessly? In fact, karma alone may not cause us to be reborn. Besides karma, defilements are needed as the secondary cause of rebirth. The major defilement is the ‘love’ of life. Thoughts of greed and attachment to this illusory world, with the foolish wish to live forever, plant in our deluded minds the seeds for continuous life and death.

A practicing Buddhist who wishes to end the cycle of life and death needs to let go of self-centered love and attachment to self-destructive living. This is similar to planting crops. Although we may have seeds, without water and fertilizer, the seeds will not sprout. Thus, even though we may have generated a lot of good or bad karma, without the fertile conditions provided by defilements (i.e. love and attachments), the seeds of our sufferings will not sprout. If we crave for comfort, luxury and wealth, and cling to our life, we will never break the cycle of life and death. In order to end the cycle of life and death, we must let go of our attachments thoroughly, then new life will not emerge.

To achieve this we should remember not to do evil, but to do more good. We should accumulate our merits in order to gain a good repay in the future. We should not attach ourselves to the process of life and death, but to strengthen our determination to leave this deluded, suffering world.

http://www.buddhanet.net/cbp2_f7.htm

[Tenzin Gyatso]

Not degenerating one's refuge is important for the time of death. Dhogyal will interfere in this process. He himself took a negative rebirth after his death as tulku trapa kyeltsen.

The quality of one's rebirth in the next life is determined by the quality of one's mental activity in this life. Generally speaking, we have no power to choose how we are born; it is dependent on karmic forces. However, the period near the time of death is very influential in terms of activating one from among the many karmas that a person has already accumulated, and, therefore, if one makes particular effort at generating a virtuous attitude at that time, there is an opportunity to strengthen and activate a virtuous karma. Moreover, when one has developed high realization and has gained control over how one will be reborn, it is possible to take what is called "reincarnation" rather than mere rebirth.

[michaela]

Dear Tenzin Gyatso

I agree with you that not degenerating one’s refuge is very important.  That is why it is very important for me as a practitioner to keep my Samaya with my Lama who gave me Shugden’s practice.

After his death, Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen reincarnated as Dorje Shugden, an enlightened Dharma protector.  He is a unique Dharma Protector and his main objective is to protect Lama Tsongkhapa teachings. 
If you really believe that DS is an ordinary spirit, why all the pujas instructed by the 5th Dalai Lama and now by the 14th Dalai Lama could not subdue him?  The only logical explanation is because DS is an enlightened being. 

Please read “Music Delighting Oceans of Protector” to enhance your knowledge.  It is written by H.H. Trijang Rinpoche, HHDL’s Guru.  You will gainn new perspective about the whole situation.

http://dorjeshugden.com/articles/musicdelighting.pdf

[kris]

My Lama has been extremely kind to me, by giving me a lot of Dharma. He has been extremely kind to all this students too. I have never met anyone who is more compassionate than Him. He told me that as a Lama, He is very afraid of Karma, in the sense that He knows NO ONE can escape Karma and He will never ask the students to "bad" things. He asked me, "If I ask you to do bad things, who has the worse karma? you or me?", and He said, "of course the people who gave instruction", then He continue to say, "If I ask you to pray to Dorje Shugden and if He is a spirit, who has got worse karma?"

He told me, when I die, a monk will come and take me to a good rebirth, so that I can continue practice Dharma. Based on all the kindness my Lama has shown me, I choose to believe Him 100%. If by practicing a spirit can have that level of kindness, I don't know what to say...

[Ensapa]

Not degenerating one's refuge is important for the time of death. Dhogyal will interfere in this process. He himself took a negative rebirth after his death as tulku trapa kyeltsen.

The quality of one's rebirth in the next life is determined by the quality of one's mental activity in this life. Generally speaking, we have no power to choose how we are born; it is dependent on karmic forces. However, the period near the time of death is very influential in terms of activating one from among the many karmas that a person has already accumulated, and, therefore, if one makes particular effort at generating a virtuous attitude at that time, there is an opportunity to strengthen and activate a virtuous karma. Moreover, when one has developed high realization and has gained control over how one will be reborn, it is possible to take what is called "reincarnation" rather than mere rebirth.

That does not explain why all of the lamas such as Pabongkha Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche, Domo Geshe Rinpoche and so on have returned despite being close Dorje Shugden practitioners. If dholgyal is an interfering spirit at the time of death, then all of these high masters would not be able to return as reincarnations at all and they would have been reborn in bad states and their reincarnations would not have been recognized. The 'fact' that Dorje Shugden is a spirit itself does not make sense as if we look at the achievements done during his life time and also his previous reincarnations and their achievements, it would mean that the Buddha's teachings is ineffective as someone who has attained his teachings can still take a bad rebirth. So yeah..dosent make sense to me so I'll stick to the belief that Dorje Shugden is an enlightened being.

There has been many cases of Dorje Shugden practitioners seeing a monk guiding them through bardo during their deaths, like what kris had said as this is one of the promises and gurantees that a Dorje Shugden practitioner has as Dorje Shugden has a very high level of affinity with people of our era. How many other Dharma protectors can offer this gurantee?

[dondrup]

As long as sentient beings remain in samsara, they will be subject to the process of death and rebirth over and over again without questions.  In order for us to control our rebirth, we need to control our thoughts at the moment of death. These thoughts will trigger the ripening of karma that will propel our rebirth.  This force is known as the throwing karma.  For example, when thoughts of anger arise at the moment of death, it would trigger the ripening of karma that will throw us into taking rebirth in the Hell realms!

If sentient beings have the good fortune to practise Highest Yoga Tantra, they will be able to transform their death, bardo and rebirth into the three bodies of the Buddha / Yidam.  Hence, this overcomes ordinary death, bardo and rebirth.

[Manjushri]

Not degenerating one's refuge is important for the time of death. Dhogyal will interfere in this process. He himself took a negative rebirth after his death as tulku trapa kyeltsen.

The quality of one's rebirth in the next life is determined by the quality of one's mental activity in this life. Generally speaking, we have no power to choose how we are born; it is dependent on karmic forces. However, the period near the time of death is very influential in terms of activating one from among the many karmas that a person has already accumulated, and, therefore, if one makes particular effort at generating a virtuous attitude at that time, there is an opportunity to strengthen and activate a virtuous karma. Moreover, when one has developed high realization and has gained control over how one will be reborn, it is possible to take what is called "reincarnation" rather than mere rebirth.

Yes you are correct that not degenerating one's refuge is important at the time of death. Not degenerating the promises you made to your teacher/guru is imporant at the time of death as when you take refuge, you start of with "Namo Guru Beh". If Shugden is to interfere with the process at the time of death, then Trijang Rinpoche would not be amongst us today, then Domo Geshe Rinpoche would not be in Shar Gaden right at this moment, then Lama Osel would not be back. But since they are all back and in their previous incarnations, practised Dorje Shugden, then what validity do you have to claim that Dorje Shugden will interfere in this process?

If Tulku Dragpa Kyeltsen took a negative rebirth, then why would the 5th Dalai Lama compose a praise to him after Tulku Dragpa Kyeltsen entered clear light? If Tulku Dragpa Kyeltsen took negative rebirth, that means Nechung is wrong, for it was Nechung that created the conditions for Dorje Shugden to arise. Therefore, HHDL is relying on an unreliable source in Nechung taking trance in the state oracle, no?

If Tulku Dragpa Kyeltsen took negative rebirt, why then does the admin of this page SO CONFIDENTLY let out that Tulku Dragpa Kyeltsen is amongst us living and breathing today? If He was so bad, none of the Shugden monasteries would be thriving. So why are they thriving and why are the lamas who practised Dorje Shugden still reincarnating back to continue their works in this life?

[yontenjamyang]

Thank You all for the write ups on rebirth and reincarnation. At my level, I cannot claim to truly understand every single concept. Maybe just contrived intellectual understanding. It is said that one need to achieve the first ground boddhisattva on the path of seeing before one can truly understand it all. Intellectually, some questions do come to my mind reading this subject. For example, if there is no self, then what is it that goes to hell? We are given the impression that the last life prior to that is the "self" that goes to hell. Even in some sutra, it is depicted that way. For example, Ksitigarbha's mother. Does the hell being still hold on to the past life's consciousness? Does he remembers his past life? Does he regard himself as the same "self"? Or does he not remember anything. If we take animals rebirth example, then, I think it will be the latter ie do not remember anything. Can someone answer these questions with authority?

[yontenjamyang]

Not degenerating one's refuge is important for the time of death. Dhogyal will interfere in this process. He himself took a negative rebirth after his death as tulku trapa kyeltsen.

The quality of one's rebirth in the next life is determined by the quality of one's mental activity in this life. Generally speaking, we have no power to choose how we are born; it is dependent on karmic forces. However, the period near the time of death is very influential in terms of activating one from among the many karmas that a person has already accumulated, and, therefore, if one makes particular effort at generating a virtuous attitude at that time, there is an opportunity to strengthen and activate a virtuous karma. Moreover, when one has developed high realization and has gained control over how one will be reborn, it is possible to take what is called "reincarnation" rather than mere rebirth.

Mr Tenzin Gyatso, my question to you is that are you enlightened? Unless you are enlightened, then you cannot definitely know for sure your assumptions are correct. Just because the HHDL say so is not good enough. How do you know he does not have another reason to say Dorje Shugden is a spirit? What karma will you generate if he is not? If are gambling your own karma. That is not wise.

Buddha Shakyamuni taught that we should be open. We should examine what is taught; even the Dharma; and decide for yourselves. So DS practitioner has done that and decided to continue. So have you. I respect that. You must respect that too. So just be quiet.

If you really think Dorje Shugden is a spirit, then practice Boddhicitta and gain some attainment and then you can really help others. If DS practitioner who has taken refuge and follow their Guru's instruction, then do you think that a spirit can really overcome the Guru. No Dharma protector, enlightened or not is higher then the Guru. Certainly  spirits, gods, land deities  cannot come anywhere close.

HHDL and the CTA has said Dorje Shugden is a spirit but never said any of the DS Lama's including the great Pabongkha, Trijang, Ling and other Lamas are not Gurus. He never doubted them on any of their attainments except for DS.  So, the Gurus will overcome any spirit even if you are right. So fear not. Now, let everyone else follow their Guru's instruction please. Remember,the Guru is first and foremost.

[Ensapa]

Mr Tenzin Gyatso, my question to you is that are you enlightened? Unless you are enlightened, then you cannot definitely know for sure your assumptions are correct. Just because the HHDL say so is not good enough. How do you know he does not have another reason to say Dorje Shugden is a spirit? What karma will you generate if he is not? If are gambling your own karma. That is not wise.
we have to remember that this is what people who are of the Dalai Lama's side would like to think, that whatever that the Dalai Lama says is right and is good enough, which is fine, but forcing that down the throats of others is not exactly what I feel comfortable with these crusaders. They should really respect our space to practice Dorje Shugden. Many of them think they are doing us a favor by dissuading us from doing a 'bad' practice, so we need to work around that and understand their intentions before we can reply.

Buddha Shakyamuni taught that we should be open. We should examine what is taught; even the Dharma; and decide for yourselves. So DS practitioner has done that and decided to continue. So have you. I respect that. You must respect that too. So just be quiet.
Even the Dalai Lama himself said that we must be ore open minded again and again. And also to check things out. I wouldnt really listen to people who only parrot the Dalai Lama's teachings and who does not talk about it from their own experience, it does not sound very believable at all.

If you really think Dorje Shugden is a spirit, then practice Boddhicitta and gain some attainment and then you can really help others. If DS practitioner who has taken refuge and follow their Guru's instruction, then do you think that a spirit can really overcome the Guru. No Dharma protector, enlightened or not is higher then the Guru. Certainly  spirits, gods, land deities  cannot come anywhere close.
This is what they should do. In fact, many Buddhists now adopt this mentality when dealing with Dorje Shugden, if they're not Gelug because they're not Tibetan and they dont get anything when Tibet gets their independence.

HHDL and the CTA has said Dorje Shugden is a spirit but never said any of the DS Lama's including the great Pabongkha, Trijang, Ling and other Lamas are not Gurus. He never doubted them on any of their attainments except for DS.  So, the Gurus will overcome any spirit even if you are right. So fear not. Now, let everyone else follow their Guru's instruction please. Remember,the Guru is first and foremost.
If I was the Dalai Lama's student and I showed so much fear and insecurity over Dorje Shugden when the Dalai Lama usually just causally mentions him, it just shows that im insecure of my faith to the Dalai Lama and by upholding the ban and hate against Dorje Shugden, i hope to accelerate my faith in the Dalai Lama. Sadly, this is not how things work, but many people would like to believe that it does.

Although your points are quite clear, they do come to me as being a bit too emotional on the first part, but the rest of your reasonings are quite solid. If the Dalai Lama's students really love the Dalai Lama, they have to show his qualities of compassion instead of hatred and discrimination. Then, perhaps, they can become more beneficial people towards others also.