Interesting contradictory point

[Ensapa]

We all know about the The Karmapas and the Trijangs being very close with each other. It is not surprising if they happen to hold the same view of things, but there is an interesting account of Trijang Rinpoche and The 16th Karmapa that I found in the Dalai Lama's website:

Now I would like to say something about Trijang Rinpoche. He and Karmapa Rinpoche were very close. He himself related one incident that occurred after we had moved here. He said that on the previous day he had received a bit of a shock. Karmapa Rinpoche had turned up out of the blue just as he was doing Dolgyal propitiation.  When he heard that Karmapa Rinpoche had arrived, he said that he had to hurriedly clear away all of the offerings in order to conceal them. The reason was that Karmapa Rinpoche was not at all keen on Dolgyal. Think about this. What sort of a tutelary protector for the Gelug is it that one has to conceal when a Kagyu Lama arrives? The Gelug tradition has the Six-Armed Mahakala as a tutelary deity. It also has Damchen Chogyel (Kalarupa). If it had been Mahakala there in full view, Karmapa Rinpoche would have been quite happy. He would probably have offered a symbolic libation to him. I do not know whether the same is true for Damchen Chogyel (Kalarupa). Anyway, the point is; the real tutelary deities of the Gelug are those that have been appointed to the task after the ordering and assigning process approved by Je Rinpoche. They are the established guardians. One can engage in propitiation of them openly and with pride. There is no need to hide them from anyone, whether the person in question is a Kagyu, Dzogchen or Sakya practitioner. There should be no need to have to conceal representations of any protector in some dark corner. It makes me laugh to think about Trijang Rinpoche scurrying to collect his offerings, saying to his attendant, 'put this one away, and this one, and this one'. But having to hide like that seems to be a rather sorry state of affairs.

(unrelated story edited out)

This account, however, contradicts deeply with:

Quote of a famous incident: in the 70s or 80s the 16th Karmapa went to an opening of a Nyingma monastery in Nepal. There, they had a statue of Dorje Drolo which had been modified and shown to be stepping on Dorje Shugden. Karmapa was very angry when he saw this. He said, “Who made this? Where did this lineage come from? Show me the monk who did this.” He left the monastery very unhappy.

More than that, the Karmapa predicted then to the Nyingmas at the monastery, “You will have no choice in the future but to practice this protector; there will come a time when you need him" referring of course to Dorje Shugden.

This incident has been written and recorded down by Dagom Rinpoche himself, see the sungbum in the attached pic.

If the 16th Karmapa did not like Dorje Shugden, then why did he spoke in favor of Dorje Shugden in the account below? To me, that is very odd, beyond my understanding. Anyone would like to discuss about this point?

[Vajraprotector]

This is very weird indeed. Why would the Karmapa get upset with Dorje Shugden when he is clearly on Dorje Shugden's side? I wonder which is the real story, and how did the Dalai Lama know if it was due to shame and fear that Trijang Rinpoche had to hide Dorje Shugden from the Karmapa? Perhaps there could be some other reason for him to hide the items from Karmapa, that it would be disrespectful to the Karmapa if he was praying to a Gelug only protector.

I am sure given the time, Trijang Rinpoche or the Karmapa will have an explanation for this because it does seem very odd for the Karmapa to suddenly be against Dorje Shugden in this manner. Even normal people wont change their viewpoints this fast, what can be said about high lamas?

[hope rainbow]

Perhaps, it would help to know where is the contradiction?

The first story may very well have a different reason all together.
It may have been a way to avoid for the Karmapa to see something that he may be questionned about in the future, and Trijang Rinpoche thus concealed "evidences". In the future, the Karmapa may have been asked: "have you seen Trijang Rinpoche practicing DS", and he could have replied "no, I never saw evidences of that".

You may think this is twisted, but this could very well be.
I have seen lamas go to great extent so as to avoid putting others in precarious difficult positions.

[Ensapa]

Perhaps, it would help to know where is the contradiction?

The first story may very well have a different reason all together.
It may have been a way to avoid for the Karmapa to see something that he may be questionned about in the future, and Trijang Rinpoche thus concealed "evidences". In the future, the Karmapa may have been asked: "have you seen Trijang Rinpoche practicing DS", and he could have replied "no, I never saw evidences of that".

You may think this is twisted, but this could very well be.
I have seen lamas go to great extent so as to avoid putting others in precarious difficult positions.

However, the Dalai Lama uses this as a basis to infer that Dorje Shugden is a negative being, and therefore he wanted to hide it:

....One can engage in propitiation of them openly and with pride. There is no need to hide them from anyone, whether the person in question is a Kagyu, Dzogchen or Sakya practitioner. There should be no need to have to conceal representations of any protector in some dark corner. It makes me laugh to think about Trijang Rinpoche scurrying to collect his offerings, saying to his attendant, 'put this one away, and this one, and this one'. But having to hide like that seems to be a rather sorry state of affairs.

But in the next sentence/incident, it clearly shows that the Karmapa is on the side of Dorje Shugden:

Quote of a famous incident: in the 70s or 80s the 16th Karmapa went to an opening of a Nyingma monastery in Nepal. There, they had a statue of Dorje Drolo which had been modified and shown to be stepping on Dorje Shugden. Karmapa was very angry when he saw this. He said, “Who made this? Where did this lineage come from? Show me the monk who did this.” He left the monastery very unhappy.

So...if the Karmapa would be unhappy with Dorje Shugden being put down, why would he be afraid to see Trijang Rinpoche's Dorje Shugden puja? I like Hope Rainbow's explanation tho, but why would the Dalai Lama try to distort this? That is the contradiction that i see.

[Big Uncle]

I think it is very hard to say who is right and who is wrong in this case. First of all, I would like to point out that you are referring to the Karmapa, who is the head of the Karma Kagyu tradition. Although he has had a rather close relationship with Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche but he is not a Gelug Lama and may not even hold any Gelug lineages as far as I am concerned.

I am not trying to be sectarian here but that means that he should not have any say in any Gelug practices. Even if the Karmapa was to be considered a Gelug Lama, he is not the head and therefore, should have no say in the practices of the Gelug tradition. By right, only the Gaden Tri Rinpoche should have the right to sanction or outlaw any protector practices.

Hence, it doesn't really matter that the Karmapa promotes Dorje Shugden or not. With the deepest respect, his views are irrelevant. It is more important to hear about what makes Dorje Shguden such an important practice of our times. 

[Ensapa]

yeah...but

I think it is very hard to say who is right and who is wrong in this case. First of all, I would like to point out that you are referring to the Karmapa, who is the head of the Karma Kagyu tradition. Although he has had a rather close relationship with Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche but he is not a Gelug Lama and may not even hold any Gelug lineages as far as I am concerned.
The Karmapa does not hold any Gelug lineages, but he definitely defended Dorje Shugden back there. The Karmapa's support for Dorje Shugden has no bearing on who is right or who is wrong, but merely, to iron out these inconsistencies so that we get a better understanding of the whole picture and as to how to reconcile between statements like these.

I am not trying to be sectarian here but that means that he should not have any say in any Gelug practices. Even if the Karmapa was to be considered a Gelug Lama, he is not the head and therefore, should have no say in the practices of the Gelug tradition. By right, only the Gaden Tri Rinpoche should have the right to sanction or outlaw any protector practices.
Ummm...The Karmapa said nothing about any Gelug practices, it was more of his reaction to the statue in Nepal and on why Trijang Rinpoche did what he did when the Karmapa visited Trijang Rinpoche. It is more of how HHDL interpreted the event that made me wonder what is going on.

Hence, it doesn't really matter that the Karmapa promotes Dorje Shugden or not. With the deepest respect, his views are irrelevant. It is more important to hear about what makes Dorje Shguden such an important practice of our times.
It shows that the ban was wrong. That is the most important point if he promoted Dorje Shugden. It also shows that Dorje Shugden is not sectarian and he never was that a Kagyu Lama can support him and it is the Karmapa himself who did, proving that he is not a ghost but a Dharma protector. Should the Karmapa chose to support Dorje Shugden, the ban will be overturned because the reasonings given by HHDL on why Dorje Shugden is bad washes away like paint in the rain.

In some ways, thanks to the whole globalization thing going on these days, whatever the Karmapa says will also have the equal strength to the Dalai Lama's statements because of who the 16th Karmapa was. HHDL will have not much of a choice but to concede and tolerate and lift the ban. That's what i think anyway.

[Big Uncle]

I object very strongly to what you are saying. The Karmapa DO NOT have any say because he is not a Lama of the Gelug tradition. He may outlaw Dorje Shugden practice within the Karma Kagyu tradition but he has no say within the Gelug tradition. His contradicting reactions by right shouldn't be used as a gauge for his stand on Dorje Shugden.

On the other hand, the 16th Karmapa had passed on and his incarnation had been recognized and are grown up already. So, his statements are irrelevant now and what's more important is the view of his incarnations. There's two recognized incarnations and I have never heard of their stand on Dorje Shugden. I wonder what they think of Dorje Shugden and I am pretty sure the Karmapa that was recognized by the Dalai Lama would be against Dorje Shugden while the other wouldn't have an opinion because Dorje Shugden is just not a Karma Kagyu practice anyway.

Last of all, I am pretty sure that the Karmapa would never be able to fill in the shoes of the Dalai Lama for the simple fact that he is not a Gelug Lama. Any statements his incarnations give regarding Dorje Shugden would never be accepted within the Gelug tradition. It would be better if we do all we can to release the ban from the side of the CTA.

yeah...but

I think it is very hard to say who is right and who is wrong in this case. First of all, I would like to point out that you are referring to the Karmapa, who is the head of the Karma Kagyu tradition. Although he has had a rather close relationship with Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche but he is not a Gelug Lama and may not even hold any Gelug lineages as far as I am concerned.
The Karmapa does not hold any Gelug lineages, but he definitely defended Dorje Shugden back there. The Karmapa's support for Dorje Shugden has no bearing on who is right or who is wrong, but merely, to iron out these inconsistencies so that we get a better understanding of the whole picture and as to how to reconcile between statements like these.

I am not trying to be sectarian here but that means that he should not have any say in any Gelug practices. Even if the Karmapa was to be considered a Gelug Lama, he is not the head and therefore, should have no say in the practices of the Gelug tradition. By right, only the Gaden Tri Rinpoche should have the right to sanction or outlaw any protector practices.
Ummm...The Karmapa said nothing about any Gelug practices, it was more of his reaction to the statue in Nepal and on why Trijang Rinpoche did what he did when the Karmapa visited Trijang Rinpoche. It is more of how HHDL interpreted the event that made me wonder what is going on.

Hence, it doesn't really matter that the Karmapa promotes Dorje Shugden or not. With the deepest respect, his views are irrelevant. It is more important to hear about what makes Dorje Shguden such an important practice of our times.
It shows that the ban was wrong. That is the most important point if he promoted Dorje Shugden. It also shows that Dorje Shugden is not sectarian and he never was that a Kagyu Lama can support him and it is the Karmapa himself who did, proving that he is not a ghost but a Dharma protector. Should the Karmapa chose to support Dorje Shugden, the ban will be overturned because the reasonings given by HHDL on why Dorje Shugden is bad washes away like paint in the rain.

In some ways, thanks to the whole globalization thing going on these days, whatever the Karmapa says will also have the equal strength to the Dalai Lama's statements because of who the 16th Karmapa was. HHDL will have not much of a choice but to concede and tolerate and lift the ban. That's what i think anyway.

[Ensapa]

I object very strongly to what you are saying. The Karmapa DO NOT have any say because he is not a Lama of the Gelug tradition. He may outlaw Dorje Shugden practice within the Karma Kagyu tradition but he has no say within the Gelug tradition. His contradicting reactions by right shouldn't be used as a gauge for his stand on Dorje Shugden.
The 16th Karmapa did not outlaw the practice of Dorje Shugden within his tradition, but instead had talked about him favorably, in a positive light. While the Karmapa has no say to what the Gelugs shoudl do or not do, he can show to the rest of the world that Dorje Shugden is not sectarian and this will basically dissolve all the sectarian claims of Dorje Shugden, and people will start questioning the ban alltogether.

On the other hand, the 16th Karmapa had passed on and his incarnation had been recognized and are grown up already. So, his statements are irrelevant now and what's more important is the view of his incarnations. There's two recognized incarnations and I have never heard of their stand on Dorje Shugden. I wonder what they think of Dorje Shugden and I am pretty sure the Karmapa that was recognized by the Dalai Lama would be against Dorje Shugden while the other wouldn't have an opinion because Dorje Shugden is just not a Karma Kagyu practice anyway.
But you see, incarnation implies that the previous and the current incarnation is of the same mindstream. It would be illogical for the Karmapa to support Dorje Shugden in one lifetime and then not support at all in the next because that goes against what the Buddha has taught about reincarnation. The real Karmapa will make connections with Trijang Rinpoche again and will support Dorje Shugden because it is only natural for them to continue the practice from their past life. The key here is not whether or not Karmapa tries to control the  gelug, but rather his endorsement is important to prove CTA's allegations against Dorje Shugden wrong.

Last of all, I am pretty sure that the Karmapa would never be able to fill in the shoes of the Dalai Lama for the simple fact that he is not a Gelug Lama. Any statements his incarnations give regarding Dorje Shugden would never be accepted within the Gelug tradition. It would be better if we do all we can to release the ban from the side of the CTA.
There's 2 Karmapas now, if one cannot the other one can always take over and support. The Dalai Lama wont be around forever and he is grooming Orgyen Trinley to lead although to date, everything has been quiet. The ban will be overturned soon, but with Karmapa's endorsement of Dorje Shugden, it woudl be much sooner than expected.

Yeah, I agree with you that the Karmapa cannot dictate what the Gelugs do, but he can endorse Dorje Shugden and dissolve the enmity between Dorje Shugden and the other 3 traditions. Once that is dissolved, the basis of the ban will be dissolved as well and there is really no more reason for the ban to be in place.

[hope rainbow]

The Karmapa being the potential next leader to replace The Dalai Lama, perhaps this is a way for The Dalai Lama to get him involved with the ban of Dorje Shugden. Eventhough, both Karmapas have wisely remained silent on the mattter.

The Dorje Shugden ban... What a poisonous gift for The Dalai Lama's successor...

1. Well, to make matters more complicated, there are two Karmapa's now (see Big Uncle post)
2. the Karmapa is not Gelug, and if the Dalai Lama did not succeed with the ban with his title in the Gelug sangha, how could the Karmapa possibly succeed.
3. Why would the Dalai Lama set his successor to "fail"?

I doubt that the Karmapa will become the next major Tibetan buddhist figure after the Dalai Lama passses away. In fact, it makes more sense to me that a Dorje Shugden's propititator lama will then become the next worldwide Tibetan lama figure. Dorje Shugden is more and more famous everyday, his recognition is growing. After the Dalai Lama's passing, the Dorje Shugden ban propitiators will become marginal, and I am convinced that Ganden and Shar Ganden will reunite under the protection of DS.

The next Dalai-Lama-like figure must be a strong defender of the doctrine of Lama Tsongkhapa with full recognition of Dorje Shugden as the Protector of this time and a Buddha for millions to connect with.
And that lama will also show immense and sincere deference to His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama, who, in fact, paved the way for Dorje Shugden to take over.

Dorje Shugden has in the Dalai Lama his strongest ally.
This is what I think, this is what seems most logical.

[Ensapa]

The Karmapa being the potential next leader to replace The Dalai Lama, perhaps this is a way for The Dalai Lama to get him involved with the ban of Dorje Shugden. Eventhough, both Karmapas have wisely remained silent on the mattter.
As much as I want to see their decision to remain silent and not speak up as wise on this issue as a wise one, it also shows that none of them seem to be doing anything that is truly unique that resembles the previous Karmapa. The previous Karmapa spoke up against the mistreatment of Dorje Shugden's image that was placed under Dorje Drollo. What has any of the current Karmapas said that resembles that? Although Thaye Dorje did say something, but its so small.

The Dorje Shugden ban... What a poisonous gift for The Dalai Lama's successor...

1. Well, to make matters more complicated, there are two Karmapa's now (see Big Uncle post)
The Karmapa that makes a connection with Trijang Rinpoche like they did in so many previous lifetimes will be the "real" Karmapa, if we only want one.

2. the Karmapa is not Gelug, and if the Dalai Lama did not succeed with the ban with his title in the Gelug sangha, how could the Karmapa possibly succeed.
The Dalai Lama has already set an example that it is acceptable for the secular ruler of Tibet to command other traditions. This is evident with the Sakya tradition bowing down completely to his will on the Dorje Shugden ban, going as far as erasing from history the previous Sakya Trinzins that supported Dorje Shugden. The current Sakya Trinzin's father is no longer mentioned anywhere and they even discarded prayers and rituals written with regards to Dorje Shugden. If HHDL can have that effect on the Sakyas, he can dictate the other traditions as well. Not a problem. He has also asked the Nyingmas, who by nature are very decentralized to appoint a supreme head (this has never been part of the Nyingma tradition) but they quietly complied. I'd say that he succeeded.

3. Why would the Dalai Lama set his successor to "fail"?
Maybe it will turn out for the better?

I doubt that the Karmapa will become the next major Tibetan buddhist figure after the Dalai Lama passses away. In fact, it makes more sense to me that a Dorje Shugden's propititator lama will then become the next worldwide Tibetan lama figure. Dorje Shugden is more and more famous everyday, his recognition is growing. After the Dalai Lama's passing, the Dorje Shugden ban propitiators will become marginal, and I am convinced that Ganden and Shar Ganden will reunite under the protection of DS.
It will become marginal even before as people start finding the ban a contradiction of all the values that the CTA claims they're fighting for with regards to the Tibet issue. They will feel disgusted and they will speak up. That is when HHDL has no choice. Also, even if the Karmapa takes HHDL's seat, the effect will be different. He will merely be a spiritual representative of the Tibetans.

The next Dalai-Lama-like figure must be a strong defender of the doctrine of Lama Tsongkhapa with full recognition of Dorje Shugden as the Protector of this time and a Buddha for millions to connect with.
And that lama will also show immense and sincere deference to His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama, who, in fact, paved the way for Dorje Shugden to take over.
Perhaps it would be Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen's incarnation that will take over? And it would be a huge renaissance of Buddhism when he does. After all, he is a contemporary of the Dalai Lama.

Dorje Shugden has in the Dalai Lama his strongest ally.
This is what I think, this is what seems most logical.

I've added what I think to your points there, although in general i do agree with what you said, but there are several other things that are also within consideration. At this current juncture, as soon as the ban is lifted, HHDL or the sucessor will request all traditions to practice Dorje Shugden, thus fulfilling the 16th Karmapa's prophecy.