Author Topic: Can old Geshes like Geshe Kelsang have jealousy?  (Read 8710 times)

Tenzin Gyatso

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Can old Geshes like Geshe Kelsang have jealousy?
« on: July 08, 2012, 11:51:57 PM »
I know Geshe Kelsang is a great scholar. But being a scholar means your learned but not necessarily a seasoned practitioner.

I mean look at Geshe Thupten Jinpa the translator of HHDL who disrobed, married a Canadian and now has two daughters. I mean where did all his learning go to?

If you are so learned and applied it to your practice, I mean rencounciation should be the first thing that arises in a true practitioner's mind.

With Geshe Kelsang financing, organizing and arranging hundreds of people and in various cities to protest against HHDL, what is the point? Does it not seem like jealousy. I mean Geshe Kelsang is very well known or 'infamous', so perhaps he has strong jealousy towards HHDL has totally eclipsed him in fame, stature and following therefore using his resources and people to counter HHDL? What do you think?

If he was a practitioner existing off his great learning, he would be quiet, accepting, tolerant and not stir problems by calling another great monk (HHDL) a liar. That is awfully harsh. Don't you think? It doesn't look good for Buddhists overall.

Geshe Kelsang should see the larger version of the picture which is all Buddhists should be harmonious. He is not creating harmony by always countering the spiritual leader of Tibet and head of Tibetan Buddhism overall.

I was just thinking, although I don't like the thought, maybe Geshe Kelsang is just jealous of HHDL?  :o

Ensapa

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Re: Can old Geshes like Geshe Kelsang have jealousy?
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2012, 02:38:17 AM »
Hi Tenzin Gyatso, I do remember that in an interview with Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, he said that the motivation for the protests was because he loved the Dalai Lama:

Quote
LOPEZ: Last summer [1996], you organized demonstrations in London against the Dalai Lama. The British press was very supportive of the Dalai Lama and the New Kadampa was painted in quite negative terms. Do you regret the formation of the Shugden Supporters Community in retrospect? Could you perhaps have done it differently?
GKG: We had hoped that His Holiness the Dalai Lama would change and give freedom to Tibetan people. That was our aim. Our demonstration was telling him: you made a mistake so you should change. After the demonstration we requested him to please sign a declaration to give complete freedom to Dorje Shugden worship, and he refuse. Then when he returned to India he was stronger than before.
LOPEZ: Do you think that in retrospect the demonstrations were not a good idea?
GKG: Demonstrating was telling him that he made a mistake. Demonstrating should have been a teacher for him. Demonstrating was loving him, not disrespecting him, not harming him. But he never changed.
LOPEZ: In the West, demonstrating is not perceived as an act of love.
GKG: But from our point of view we were hoping to make him realize that he made a mistake so that he could correct it.

To be honest, that does not sound at all like jealousy to me. It sounded more like the protests was created in order to make HHDL realize the effects of the ban, and that the ban on Dorje Shugden was wrong and that he should re-evaluate it instead of promoting baseless accusations against Dorje Shugden. In that retrospect, I dont see his actions as against Dalai Lama or out of jealousy. To say that GKG is jealous of HHDL and therefore he speaks negatively about HHDL and started the protests would be the same as saying that a parent reprimands the child when the child is heading the wrong way as jealous of the child's youth.

Therefore, I dont think he did it out of jealousy.

On Thupten Jinpa, i dont know either, why would he publish a book that was not meant to be published, that basically kickstarted the ban :(

Tenzin Gyatso

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Re: Can old Geshes like Geshe Kelsang have jealousy?
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2012, 04:41:18 AM »
What book did Thupten Jinpa publish that kickstarted the 'ban'?


What you state regarding Geshe Kelsang doesn't convince me thoroughly it was not jealousy. After all, Geshe Kelsang may be a scholar but certainly not enlightened I would guess. He makes mistakes too. He can have jealousy also and the other emotions like all other humans.

Zach

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Re: Can old Geshes like Geshe Kelsang have jealousy?
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2012, 09:55:28 AM »
While we are at it shall we bring into question the Dalai lama's mind to ? You know because we have the power of knowing others minds and all.  ::)

dsiluvu

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Re: Can old Geshes like Geshe Kelsang have jealousy?
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2012, 12:26:03 PM »
Isn't Thupten Jinpa now translator to HH the Dalai Lama, was also a disciple of Kyabje Zemey Rinpoche - the author of the now infamous 'Yellow Book'.

The superstition comes from how the book is read. If you take the stories of the Yellow Book too literally, they can make you overly superstitious – witness Namkhai Norbu advising his students to wear protection cords and wave mudras at Dorje Shugden practitioners to protect themselves.

I think GKG saw it as an opportunity to in fact highlight on the issues surrounding the Dorje Shugden Ban. He instructed the protest to create awareness about the BAN and Dorje Shugden so that the whole world will know about Dorje Shugden. Because of the protest, so many more people know about Dorje Shugden today even if they do not practice Tibetan Buddhism/Buddhism in general. I have often had friends inquiring about Dorje Shugden since the whole drama of the protest got on to the media. Could it be out of jealousy.. I hardly think so, because if it is really out of jealousy, then GKG would continue this protest right up until now, but they have been rather quiet lately, which I wonder why. Now all his students are mostly talking about loving kindness, harmony and compassion and some of my NKT friends have mentioned that their sangha teachers have told them not to bother about this Dorje Shugden issue but focus more on their practice, especially the new ones. I wonder why the sudden change and isolation from this topic???

Positive Change

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Re: Can old Geshes like Geshe Kelsang have jealousy?
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2012, 12:48:01 PM »
I know Geshe Kelsang is a great scholar. But being a scholar means your learned but not necessarily a seasoned practitioner.

I mean look at Geshe Thupten Jinpa the translator of HHDL who disrobed, married a Canadian and now has two daughters. I mean where did all his learning go to?

If you are so learned and applied it to your practice, I mean rencounciation should be the first thing that arises in a true practitioner's mind.

With Geshe Kelsang financing, organizing and arranging hundreds of people and in various cities to protest against HHDL, what is the point? Does it not seem like jealousy. I mean Geshe Kelsang is very well known or 'infamous', so perhaps he has strong jealousy towards HHDL has totally eclipsed him in fame, stature and following therefore using his resources and people to counter HHDL? What do you think?

If he was a practitioner existing off his great learning, he would be quiet, accepting, tolerant and not stir problems by calling another great monk (HHDL) a liar. That is awfully harsh. Don't you think? It doesn't look good for Buddhists overall.

Geshe Kelsang should see the larger version of the picture which is all Buddhists should be harmonious. He is not creating harmony by always countering the spiritual leader of Tibet and head of Tibetan Buddhism overall.

I was just thinking, although I don't like the thought, maybe Geshe Kelsang is just jealous of HHDL?  :o

Dear Tenzin Gyatso, what is there to be jealous about?

Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is the founder and former spiritual director of the New Kadampa Tradition: International Kadampa Buddhist Union (NKT-IKBU) and is a global Buddhist organisation that currently lists more than 200 centres and around 900 branch classes/study groups in 40 countries. Clearly a "feat" of someone who is most influential in his own right, don't you think? I rejoice in the efforts of GKG in spreading the Dharma!

And what I have highlighted in blue above is clearly a misconception. HHDL, with all due respect is NOT the spiritual leader of Tibet NOR the head of Tibetan Buddhism overall. HHDL is much revered as a great practitioner and clearly a rather popular and iconic Tibetan personage but he is not as you claim.

And interesting article I came across, aptly named "Two Sides of the Same God", which recounts what has often been debated and brought up through the years:


"We believe that Dorje Shugden is a buddha."

- Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, founder of the New Kadampa Tradition, who organized demonstrations against the Dalai Lama during the summer of 1996


"This worship of Dorje Shugden is not a religion at all. It is a cult."

- Thubten Jigme Norbu, brother of the Dalai Lama


To understand both sides of the Shugden debate, Professor Lopez interviewed Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, founder of the New Kadampa Tradition and an advocate of Dorje Shugden worship, and Thubten Jigme Norbu, who opposes Shugden worship. Jigme Norbu is professor emeritus of Tibetan studies at Indiana State University, and founder of Rangzen, the International Tibetan Independence Movement. He is the brother of His Holiness the Dalai Lama.

On the night of February 4, 1997, a prominent Tibetan monk and two of his disciples were butchered to death near Dharamsala, India, the Dalai Lama’s capital-in-exile. The reportedly ritualistic violence inflicted on Geshe Losang Gyatso, the seventy-year-old principal of the Institute of Buddhist Dialectics, and two young monks in their twenties was immediately identified in the press as a “cult murder” and the cult identified as the “Shugdens.”

There is no mention of such a cult or sect in the history of Tibetan Buddhism, but there is a deity named Shugden, or more fully, Dorje Shugden, the “Powerful Thunderbolt,” a wrathful deity who seems to have originated in the seventeenth century, and who has been at the heart of a controversy in the Tibetan refugee community for the last twenty years.

The controversy has remained largely unknown to Westerners, but it reached public attention in the summer of 1996, when the disciples of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso of the New Kadampa Tradition picketed the Dalai Lama in London, accusing him of restricting their religious freedom. The point of contention is the worship of Dorje Shugden, which the Dalai Lama has asked his followers to abandon.

Lobsang Gyatso was a strong proponent of His Holiness’s position, which fueled assumptions that his murder was an act of revenge by pro-Shugden forces. Many news reports implied that the devotees of Shugden, most notably Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, somehow supported the murders. In fact, he, along with other “pro-Shugden” groups, have publicly condemned the murders in Dharamsala. Although no arrests have been made at this time, the Indian police now have identified suspects with links to the Shugden Committee in Delhi. The Shugden Committee has denied any connection with the murders.

Shugden is an important protective deity of the Gelug sect of Tibetan Buddhism. According to myth, he is the spirit of a learned and virtuous Gelug monk of the seventeenth century. This monk, Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen (1619-1655), had been one of the candidates considered for selection as the Fifth Dalai Lama. Another child was chosen, however, and Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen was subsequently named as the incarnation of another prominent lama of the Gelug sect. All this occurred before the Fifth Dalai Lama became temporal ruler of Tibet in 1642. Thus, during their youth, the Dalai Lama was an important - but not the most important - Gelug tulku, and lived not in the Potala (which had not yet been constructed), but in Drepung monastery in a place called the Lower House, while Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen lived in the so-called Upper House. There seems to have been rivalry between the Fifth Dalai Lama and Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen, or at least rivalry between their followers. As the story goes, one day Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen defeated the Dalai Lama in debate. Shortly thereafter he was found dead, with a ceremonial scarf stuffed down his throat. He had either been murdered or committed suicide.

Soon, central Tibet in general and the Tibetan government in particular suffered a series of calamities. A mysterious force even overturned the dishes when the Fifth Dalai Lama was served his noon meal. Eventually, the source of the difficulty was identified as the spirit of Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen, and various lamas and magicians were called in to exorcise the wrathful spirit. After they had all failed, the government of the Dalai Lama and the hierarchy of the Gelug sect propitiated the spirit, asking that he desist from harm and instead become a protector of the Gelug. The spirit agreed, and since that time Shugden has become one of the chief protectors of the Gelug sect, its monks, and its monasteries.

One of Shugden’s particular functions has been to protect the Gelugpa sect from the influence of the Nyingma. According to some accounts, he is said to punish those who attempt to practice a mixture of the two. The worship of Shugden underwent a revival in the first decades of this century, led by the famous Gelugpa monk Pabongka, (1878-1943). Pabongka was the guru of many of the most important Gelug monks of this century, including, most prominently, Trijang Rinpoche (1901-1981) of Ganden monastery, the junior tutor of the current Dalai Lama and thus one of the two most important Gelug monks in the refugee community. Trijang Rinpoche was a strong proponent of Shugden and the current Dalai Lama himself included prayers for Shugden in his nightly practice for many years.

After fleeing to India where he had to form and head a government-in-exile to represent the interests of all Tibetans, the Dalai Lama, beginning in 1976, discouraged the propitiation of Shugden on the advice of the Nechung oracle, saying that he personally disapproved of the practice and did not wish those who were associated with him, either as his disciples or as members of his government, to publicly worship Shugden. Contrary to the view of many Gelug monks, the Dalai Lama saw Shugden not as a buddha or the incarnation of the Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen, but as a worldly god, even an evil spirit, whose worship promoted sectarianism in the refugee community and thus was inimical to the greater cause of Tibetan independence. The Dalai Lama’s renunciation of Shugden caused great discord within the Gelugpa community, where devotion to the deity remained strong among the Gelug hierarchy, albeit covertly in some cases. Spirited defenses of his worship were written and published.

In 1996, the Dalai Lama renewed his opposition. He refused to give tantric initiation to those who had not renounced Shugden, feeling that to do so would create a karmic relation that would be detrimental to his health. Supporters of Shugden claimed that statues of the deity were being destroyed by zealous supporters of the Dalai Lama’s position and that monks were being pressured to sign statements denouncing the deity. On July 15, 1996, the Tibetan government-in-exile issued a statement that read in part:

The government departments and their subsidiaries, as well as monastic institutions functioning under the administrative control of the CentralTibetan Administration, should be strictly forbidden from propitiating this spirit. Individual Tibetans, it said, must be informed of the demerits of propitiating this spirit, but be given freedom to “decide as they like.”

The resolution, however, requested the propitiators of this spirit not to receive vajrayana teachings from His Holiness the Dalai Lama.

The government-in-exile asked the abbot of Sera monastery, a traditional center of Shugden devotion, to provide the names of any monks who continued to worship the deity. The Holder of the Throne of Ganden, the head of the Gelugpa sect (appointed by the Dalai Lama), issued a statement denouncing the worship of Shugden. Those monks who had criticized the Dalai Lama for his proscription of Shugden he accused of “devoting time in framing detrimental plots and committing degrading acts, which seems no different from the act of attacking monasteries wielding swords and spears and drenching the holy robes of the Buddha with blood.”

One of the monks who denounced the Dalai Lama’s decree was Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, a monk of Sera monastery who in 1991 founded the New Kadampa Tradition (NKT) in England. Born in Tibet in 1932, Kelsang Gyatso has written numerous works on Mahayana and Vajrayana practice from the Gelugpa perspective. Like many of the most prominent Gelug lamas to come to the West (including Geshe Rabten, Gelek Rinpoche, and Geshe Gyaltsen), Geshe Kelsang Gyatso was a disciple of Trijang Rinpoche, for whom devotion to Shugden had been very important. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso made the worship of Dorje Shugden as dharma protector an important part of the New Kadampa Tradition. In the summer of 1996, the disciples of Kelsang Gyatso denounced the Dalai Lama for impinging on their religious freedom, and picketed against him during his visit to Britain, accusing him of intolerance.

The demonstrations made front-page news in the British press, which collectively rose to the Dalai Lama’s defense and in various reports depicted the New Kadampa Tradition as a fanatic, empire-building, demon-worshiping cult. The demonstrations were a public relations disaster for the NKT, not only because of their treatment by the press, but because of the absence of any historical information, portraying Shugden as a remnant of Tibet’s primitive pre-Buddhist past. The NKT’s allegiance to Shugden appeared to Westerners to be an aberration on the landscape of the Tibetan diaspora rather than an issue at the center of questions of Tibetan national identity. Yet while many Tibetans would never publicly challenge the Dalai Lama, the worship of Dorje Shugden remains widespread, and there is nothing to suggest that the controversy will quickly subside.

michaela

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Re: Can old Geshes like Geshe Kelsang have jealousy?
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2012, 02:22:10 PM »
Dear Tenzin Gyatso

I have a question for you.  As you live in Dharamsala, what is the general mood about DS?  Do you and your colleagues investigated about the issue at hand?  What do you honestly think about this whole DS issue?

Big Uncle

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Re: Can old Geshes like Geshe Kelsang have jealousy?
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2012, 08:24:13 AM »
I know Geshe Kelsang is a great scholar. But being a scholar means your learned but not necessarily a seasoned practitioner.

I mean look at Geshe Thupten Jinpa the translator of HHDL who disrobed, married a Canadian and now has two daughters. I mean where did all his learning go to?

If you are so learned and applied it to your practice, I mean rencounciation should be the first thing that arises in a true practitioner's mind.

With Geshe Kelsang financing, organizing and arranging hundreds of people and in various cities to protest against HHDL, what is the point? Does it not seem like jealousy. I mean Geshe Kelsang is very well known or 'infamous', so perhaps he has strong jealousy towards HHDL has totally eclipsed him in fame, stature and following therefore using his resources and people to counter HHDL? What do you think?

If he was a practitioner existing off his great learning, he would be quiet, accepting, tolerant and not stir problems by calling another great monk (HHDL) a liar. That is awfully harsh. Don't you think? It doesn't look good for Buddhists overall.

Geshe Kelsang should see the larger version of the picture which is all Buddhists should be harmonious. He is not creating harmony by always countering the spiritual leader of Tibet and head of Tibetan Buddhism overall.

I was just thinking, although I don't like the thought, maybe Geshe Kelsang is just jealous of HHDL?  :o

Well, I don't think it has got anything to do with jealousy and in fact, I think it has got nothing to do with Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. I think that the old Geshe just wants the Dalai Lama to lift the ban. That's all and he's already at wit's end writing letters to the Dalai Lama but with no response. Hence, the Geshe has organized protests as his way to lift the ban.

In the west, it is very common and a way for the people to speak their mind and in hoping to bring awareness to this issue. It cannot be because Geshe Kelsang Gyatso was jealous. If he was jealous, he would do more to stir up issues regarding many other aspects like the Tibetan cause and so forth.

kris

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Re: Can old Geshes like Geshe Kelsang have jealousy?
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2012, 06:00:55 PM »
There are many times where I cannot understand why High Lama, specially Vajrayana High Lamas, do things certain way. I guess it is why they have this thing call crazy wisdom. I was told the way to check if the Lama is genuine, is to check His results if Dharma flourish among Him.

Can I know for sure if Geshe Kelsang is jealous? I can't say, but, then again, is it crazy wisdom? Or jealously? But when I see His results of NKT, Dharma flourish everywhere, and I would say it is probably not jealously...

As for HH Dalai Lama, there are also many thing He did which, to me, should not be done by a holy Lama, especially related to the ban of Dorje Shugden. But when I see His results of spreading Dharma especially in the western world, I would say He is genuine.

As such, I would say Geshe Kelsang is not jealous and HH Dalai Lama is genuine.

tsangpakarpo

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Re: Can old Geshes like Geshe Kelsang have jealousy?
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2012, 12:41:07 PM »
Tenzin Gyatso, it is quite incredible how you place the entire responsibility on Geshe Kelsang. Incredibly wrong!

Think about it this way, would the protests even happen if no one else are against the ban? Are we all who defend the right to practice Dorje Shugden jealous as well? Jealous of what in the first place? Personally, I admire HH Dalai Lama very much but that does not mean I have to blindly agree with everything he says.

At this age of technological advancement, we have the technology as a tool to improve our knowledge and research. When I first heard of Geshe Kelsang, I did not blindly believe everything he said but I check my sources and only then I believe and have faith in Dorje Shugden just like Geshe Kelsang.

If you can twist the entire episode and say Geshe Kelsang is jealous, then can I also twist and say HH Dalai Lama is jealous of Dorje Shugden's fame? WELL I DARE NOT FOR SURE!

What basis do you have to even say he is jealous? Have you met him in person? Have you even read up on him? For a person with so much jealousy to have so much respect all around the world, I would like to believe he is fighting not just for himself but for the many other Dorje Shugden practitioners also. And with the protests and ban, Dorje Shugden's name is brought out there for everyone to know. This act alone, has planted seeds of Dharma in many people's mind streams. Some like you may not have the fortune to practice Dorje Shugden today but as the seed has been planted, I pray that it will ripen later on.

Carpenter

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Re: Can old Geshes like Geshe Kelsang have jealousy?
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2012, 02:23:20 PM »
What I understand is, there is now a ban has enforced towards Dorje Shugden’s practice, and we all know very well that Dorje Shugden is not an evil spirit as what Dalai Lama has mentioned, so since we know Dorje Shugden can benefits many people who practices him, so what are we going to do? Sitting down quietly and do nothing?

Many people around the world are trying their best to lift the ban, different people are taking different role to lift this ban. As what I can see from here, the webmaster that started this website, and with so many people here has been voicing out to lift the ban, so do you consider these people here jealous of Dalai Lama? I don’t think so.

I would believe that Geshe Kelsang calling for this protest it is also the same motive, to lift the ban, so that many people can practice Dorje Shugden openly and legally, and don’t you think that through this protest, it had created a vast awareness for Dorje Shugden?

beggar

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Re: Can old Geshes like Geshe Kelsang have jealousy?
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2012, 02:33:00 PM »
A question: what would Geshe Kelsang really gain from being jealous and acting out of jealousy? Surely, the dalai lama's a big mountain to try to throw eggs again. Would Geshe-la really be so foolish to as launch a jealousy attack against someone of as large a stature as the Dalai Lama? That would be like a bishop somewhere in the world being jealous of the pope.

IF hypothetically, he really were, why is it that he has never spoken a negative word against the Dalai Lama and his actions any time before the ban? It is important to look at the actual content of what Geshe-la has spoken about the issues - you will notice that he speaks about the ban and the illogic behind the reasons for the ban. He hasn't launched personal attacks against the Dalai Lama or said anything about his qualities or characteristics or other teachings. He remains quite consistent in speaking only in context of the ban. Surely if someone was jealous, they would be targeting far more than this. If anyone wanted to pick holes in any other Lama, there are plenty of avenues they can go down. It doesn't make sense to me that the only avenue Geshe-la has gone down is with regards to the ban, which has, after all, caused great suffering to many. Jealousy? I don't think so. More like a sincere concern for the suffering of millions. If that's being misconstrued to jealousy, then it only goes to show what sad times we live in.

Gabby Potter

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Re: Can old Geshes like Geshe Kelsang have jealousy?
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2015, 02:21:51 AM »
Because they are so highly learned, so personally I do not think that old Geshes like Geshe Kelsang would have jealousy, but they could manifest it though. This is just a piece of my opinion, please correct me if I am wrong :)

psylotripitaka

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Re: Can old Geshes like Geshe Kelsang have jealousy?
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2015, 03:22:17 PM »
Tenzin Gyatso,

The more important questions you should ask yourself are:
1. Is it correct Buddhist behavior to harm people who have a different belief than you?
2. Why do I support human and religious rights abuse when I know it contradicts Buddhas teachings on loving kindness?

The DL has the right to speak against the practice, but the actions of himself, the CTA, and their poor intentioned supporters have crossed the line from a disagreement to persecution. That you people can't even see the inappropriateness of this is astonishing. There would be no protests if the Dalai Lama and his followers would just mind their own fucking business.

And just for the record, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso Rinpoche isn't just a scholar, he is also a seasoned Yogi with over 20yrs of qualified meditation retreat. Whether or not he experiences jealousy is irrelevant. You people need to be nice, that's it.

Dondrup Shugden

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Re: Can old Geshes like Geshe Kelsang have jealousy?
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2015, 04:46:37 PM »
Dear Psylotripitaka, I have always enjoyed your comments and your point of view which are well thought out.

However, recently i have noticed that you are using profanity in your comments.  Shall appreciate if you will refrain from so doing with respect to the forum. Thank you.