Nechung

[cheyenne]

In early times it is believed that there were hundreds of oracles throughout Tibet.

Today, only a few survive, including those consulted by the Tibetan government. Of these, the principal one is the Nechung oracle. Through him manifests Dorje Drak-den (Nechung), the principal protector divinity of the Tibetan government and the Dalai Lama (see History of Nechung Monastery). It is because of this that Nechung Kuten is given the rank of a deputy minister in the exiled Tibetan government hierarchy.

http://www.tibet.com/buddhism/nechung_hh.html

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From Wikipedia

Pearlman (2002: p.94) frames the inauguration and installation of the tradition of the State Oracle by identifying key stakeholders: Padmasambhava, Samye, Vajrakilaya, Dharma, sangha, genius loci:
When Padmasambhava consecrated Samye Monastery with the Vajrakilaya dance, he tamed the local spirit protector, Pehar Gyalp, and bound him by oath to become the head of the entire hierarchy of Buddhist protective spirits. Pehar, later known as Dorje Drakden, became the principal protector of the Dalai Lamas, manifesting through the Nechung Oracle.

According to the Dalai Lama, "Tibetans rely on oracles for various reasons. The purpose of the oracles is not just to foretell the future. They are called upon as protectors and sometimes used as healers. However, their primary function is to protect the Buddha Dharma and its practitioners."

The rite of the Oracle possessing the kuten is ancient, entering the tradition from the Bonpo and Ngagpa, and traditionally involves a detailed evocative liturgy including such elements as fanfare, dance, mudra and mantra to invoke the Oracle who forcefully projects their mindstream via the discipline of phowa, temporarily possessing the physical basis.
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So is Nechung a Buddha? No a spirit bound by oath by Padmasambhava.

My understanding is, it is from advice from this state oracle (not a Buddha but a spirit), that the Dalai Lama has banned the practice of the Wisdom Buddha, appearing in the wrathful aspect of Dorje Shugden, because of the advise of a spirit, that claims Dorje Shugden to be not is not a Buddha but an evil spirit.

Whereas many great enlightened Gelupa lineage Gurus such as Kyabje Phabonkha Rinpoche,  Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, & Kyabje Zong Rinpoche and many others have taught that  Wisdom Buddha Dorje Shugden is a Buddha, the embodiment of the wisdom of ALL Buddhas, appearing in a wrathful aspect to protect the Dharma & specifically the teachings of Je Tsonhkhapa and by managing the conditions of  Gelugpa Practitioners who rely upon him to steer these practitioners along the most appropriate path  to gain liberation and enlightenment for the sake of all living beings.

Why is it then that we who follow the path, laid open for us by this great Protector Dorje Shugden, the Wisdom Buddha,  do not emphasise more the hypocrisy of someone who claims we are spirit worshipers, when he himself has taken this view, not  from an enlightened being but from an oath bound spirit.

He who claims that we are not Buddhists because we follow and worship a spirit is, himself lead by the advice of a Spirit.

We as Buddhist go for refuge to the Three Jewels, Buddha Dharma and Sangha. Not to Buddha, Dharma, Sangha, and spirits (via their oracles).

It is Interesting to note that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso as stopped the use of oracles in the Western tradition of the New Kadamapa Tradition.

[cheyenne]

Extract from http://www.iivs.de/%7Eiivs01311/SDLE/Part-2-07.htm

Pehar, the later state oracle, is thus a foreign deity imposed upon the Tibetan people.

It is true that the oracle god has sworn an oath of loyalty, but it is — in the lamas’ opinion — by no means ruled out that he may one day break this and unleash his full vengeance upon the Tibetans who defeated him in times gone by. He has in his own words explained to Padmasambhava what will then happen.

He will destroy the houses and the fields. The children of the Land of Snows will have to endure famine and will be driven insane. The fruit of the and will be destroyed by hail and swarms of insects. The strong will be carried off and only the weak shall survive. Wars shall devastate the roof of the world.

Pehar himself will interrupt the meditations of the lamas, rob their spells of their magic power, and force them to commit suicide.

Brothers will rape their sisters. He will make the wisdom consorts (the mudras) of the tantra masters bad and heretical, yes, transform them into enemies of the teaching who emigrate to the lands of the unbelievers.

But first he shall copulate with them. “I,” Pehar proclaims, “the lord of the temples, the stupas and scriptures, I shall possess the fair bodies of all virgins” (Sierksma, 1966, p. 165)

Cheyenne

[DharmaDefender]

In early times it is believed that there were hundreds of oracles throughout Tibet.

Today, only a few survive, including those consulted by the Tibetan government. Of these, the principal one is the Nechung oracle. Through him manifests Dorje Drak-den (Nechung), the principal protector divinity of the Tibetan government and the Dalai Lama (see History of Nechung Monastery). It is because of this that Nechung Kuten is given the rank of a deputy minister in the exiled Tibetan government hierarchy.

http://www.tibet.com/buddhism/nechung_hh.html

-----
From Wikipedia

Pearlman (2002: p.94) frames the inauguration and installation of the tradition of the State Oracle by identifying key stakeholders: Padmasambhava, Samye, Vajrakilaya, Dharma, sangha, genius loci:
When Padmasambhava consecrated Samye Monastery with the Vajrakilaya dance, he tamed the local spirit protector, Pehar Gyalp, and bound him by oath to become the head of the entire hierarchy of Buddhist protective spirits. Pehar, later known as Dorje Drakden, became the principal protector of the Dalai Lamas, manifesting through the Nechung Oracle.

According to the Dalai Lama, "Tibetans rely on oracles for various reasons. The purpose of the oracles is not just to foretell the future. They are called upon as protectors and sometimes used as healers. However, their primary function is to protect the Buddha Dharma and its practitioners."

The rite of the Oracle possessing the kuten is ancient, entering the tradition from the Bonpo and Ngagpa, and traditionally involves a detailed evocative liturgy including such elements as fanfare, dance, mudra and mantra to invoke the Oracle who forcefully projects their mindstream via the discipline of phowa, temporarily possessing the physical basis.
-----

So is Nechung a Buddha? No a spirit bound by oath by Padmasambhava.

My understanding is, it is from advice from this state oracle (not a Buddha but a spirit), that the Dalai Lama has banned the practice of the Wisdom Buddha, appearing in the wrathful aspect of Dorje Shugden, because of the advise of a spirit, that claims Dorje Shugden to be not is not a Buddha but an evil spirit.

Whereas many great enlightened Gelupa lineage Gurus such as Kyabje Phabonkha Rinpoche,  Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, & Kyabje Zong Rinpoche and many others have taught that  Wisdom Buddha Dorje Shugden is a Buddha, the embodiment of the wisdom of ALL Buddhas, appearing in a wrathful aspect to protect the Dharma & specifically the teachings of Je Tsonhkhapa and by managing the conditions of  Gelugpa Practitioners who rely upon him to steer these practitioners along the most appropriate path  to gain liberation and enlightenment for the sake of all living beings.

Why is it then that we who follow the path, laid open for us by this great Protector Dorje Shugden, the Wisdom Buddha,  do not emphasise more the hypocrisy of someone who claims we are spirit worshipers, when he himself has taken this view, not  from an enlightened being but from an oath bound spirit.

He who claims that we are not Buddhists because we follow and worship a spirit is, himself lead by the advice of a Spirit.

We as Buddhist go for refuge to the Three Jewels, Buddha Dharma and Sangha. Not to Buddha, Dharma, Sangha, and spirits (via their oracles).

It is Interesting to note that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso as stopped the use of oracles in the Western tradition of the New Kadamapa Tradition.

What confuses me is this - Nechung was instrumental in the arisal of Dorje Shugden as a Dharma Protector. He got Dulzin Dragpa Gyaltsan to promise to become an uncommon protector, and then reminded Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsan of that promise and said he would create the circumstances for vajra wrath to arise in TDGs mindstream so he can become a Dharma Protector.

Im thinking why go through all that trouble if Nechung is then going to advise HH Dalai Lama to ban the practice?

So I am thinking about this whole issue  in relations to something I read recently about the southern door of the Nechung gompa, and how Dorje Shugden is waiting to enter when Nechung becomes enlightened. Perhaps now is the time for Dorje Shugden to take the mantle as the worlds Protector, and for Nechung to bow out.

So perhaps Nechung is manifesting mistakes to lower peoples reliance on him. Perhaps the joke is that his prophecy about Dorje Shugden is just another mistake and once people realise that, they will dump their reliance on him (Nechung) and go back to Dorje Shugden with twice the faith to make up for the persecution against him.

Obviously this is all speculation and conjecture, and open to debate...so I invite you to debate!

[Galen]

Maybe the so called mistakes mad by Nechung is intentional and has a longer term benefit. It was widely known that Nechung advised the Dalai Lama not to flee from Tibet when the Chinese were invading Tibet. However, the advice was made when Nechung were in trance in front of the Dalai Lama, the Tibetan government officials and also including the Chinese officials. If at that time, Nechung advised the Dalai Lama to escape, would you think that the Dalai Lama would have escaped when the Chinese knows about the plan? There is a high possibility that the Chinese officials will stop the Dalai Lama and probably have him under house arrest. Maybe Nechung did not make that mistake after all.

Then in private, Dorje Shugden took trance and advised the Dalai Lama to flee Tibet. Maybe, Nechung and Dorje Shugden worked hand in hand in planning for the escape. In the end, their plan worked. Else today, history would have been rewritten.

So Dharma Defender, we may have mistaken the intention of Nechung after all when Nechung was the one who got Dultzin to promise to become a Dharma Protector and also reminded Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen about his promise.

[DharmaSpace]

If Guru Rinpoche bound Nechung doesn't that mean that Nechung cannot do anything negative towards or detrimental towards the Buddha Dharma?  I believe guru rinpoche was enlightened and was perfectly capable of subduing a spirit like a powerful Pehar no matter how powerful these beings are, unenlightened beings cannot overcome enlightened ones. As the fact you exist as an unenlightened beings you are already at a disadvantage compared to beings how have tasted and seen the truth.

I did heard from gelugpa lamas that Nechung will eventually attain enlightenment through the service to the Dalai Lama. Nechung has served the Dalai Lama to serve in so much capacity and so vast is his service for so many lifetimes the merit he has accrued and purification is tremendous to serve Avalokiteshvara.  So Nechung is also playing his part in this ban, by predicting Tibet will be free again soon, by advising the HHDL to stay, and of course the pivotal act of triggering the emergence of dorje Shudgen as the undisputed dharma protyector.  CTA can you see this?

[DSFriend]

Obviously this is all speculation and conjecture, and open to debate...so I invite you to debate!

Not so much a debate but just thoughts... People have faint im nechung because of HHDL. It was HHDL who propitiated Nechung and relied on his advice therefore, the tibetans accepted Nechung's position as endorsed by HHDL. Therefore, the faith should continue to be on HHDL...since whatever he says goes. He could have said something like , "Nechung's time to be enlightened is drawing near therefore, we shall now welcome in Dorje Shugden whom I have recognised and written praise to in my 5th incarnation". Wouldn't it be a time of celebration for Nechung's attainments as he is becoming enlightened? What's the reason for people to "doubt" him due to his "mistakes" so people put faith in Dorje Shugden instead?  It doesn't make sense...

There has been many different opinions presented in this forum and i think the one which resonates most with me is that intentional inconsistencies is to get China's attention instead.. The episode of Nechung "making mistake" is Tibetan centric. The world outside of Tibet doesn't really care about who what used to be TGIE consults with. If they do, then they would agree that Nechung has made lotsa mistakes that is why Tibet is where it is now.

However, the episode with Dorje Shugden is presented very differently by HHDL. It caught China's attention perhaps because HHDL presents Dorje Shugden as his nemisis. So China quickly made HHDL's nemisis to be their new friend instead. If Tibetans truly believes HHDL as Avalokiteshvara, then they it would be easy to see thru it all. How could Avalokitshvara have enemies who has the power to threaten his life?!

[vajratruth]

I did heard from gelugpa lamas that Nechung will eventually attain enlightenment through the service to the Dalai Lama. Nechung has served the Dalai Lama to serve in so much capacity and so vast is his service for so many lifetimes the merit he has accrued and purification is tremendous to serve Avalokiteshvara.  So Nechung is also playing his part in this ban, by predicting Tibet will be free again soon, by advising the HHDL to stay, and of course the pivotal act of triggering the emergence of dorje Shudgen as the undisputed dharma protyector.  CTA can you see this?

Dharmaspace, you heard correctly. Nechung has served the Dalai Lama for quite some time and is expected to attain enlightenment soon. The very important significance of Nechung going into enlightenment is that Dorje Shugden will succeed Nechung as the Chief Dharmapala of Tibet! It has been prophesied a long time ago that the Southern gate of the Nechung Gompa is kept close to everyone and behind the southern gate is Dorje Shugden waiting to enter to succeed Nechung. The 16th Karmapa himself foretold of this and advised that:  “You will have no choice in the future but to practice this protector; there will come a time when you need him" http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1809.0]

You can read more about this in: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/universal-protector-of-future-buddhism/ The Nechung-Dorje Shugden prophesy was formed a long time ago and retold in Oracles and Demons Of Tibet, an extremely well researched book by the Tibetologist René Mario de Nebesky-Wojkowitz. The book was published in the 1950's - a long time before the Shugden practice was politicized, and therefore is free of any agenda for propaganda.

Nechung and Dorje Shugden have been working together to preserve the Dharma and it was Nechung who created all the right conditions and necessary circumstances for Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen to arise as the Great Protector King, Dorje Shugden. With Dorje Shugden having arisen, the Nechung through the oracle has been manifesting mistakes after mistakes and also less willing to take trance, presumably to get people ready to receive Dorje Shugden.

What a shame that so many Tibetans forgot the prophesy and treat Dorje Shugden like an ordinary spirit. The day will come soon when they will regret the decision to disparage a Buddha and no doubt, the CTA will have egg on their face...again.

[Q]

First of all, we have to understand the nature of Nechung.

The Nechung oracle takes trance over the 5 kings of spirit and speaks through (most of the time) Pehar's chief minister Dorje Drakden. So when the oracle speaks, it is not necessary Pehar, but can be his minister; either way, it is still classified and called Nechung. Sometimes, a lesser minister called Dudnag Kancig will speak for lesser/minor questions. Strange that there is no difference, between speaking through Pehar or Dorje Drakden. Inconsistent isn't it? Perhaps that's why CTA is also very inconsistent with their actions... hehe

There is no doubt that Pehar is a spirit of the Gyalpo class. It was explained in many texts that Pehar is about to ascend into the rank of higher protective deities, which means he is in the process of enlightenment, and is not there yet.

When Pehar was subdued by Padmasambhava, he was made to promise to help the Gyatso line of incarnations. See, specifically speaking, when he is to help the Dalai Lama's line of incarnation, it does not necessary mean that he is to help the growth of Dharma. Which means that Nechung's advice would be one that is proDL. This is probably one of the reasons why many Gelug masters do not trust Nechung in the aspect of Dharma advice and trusts Dorje Shugden, whom arised specifically to protect the Dharma.

So, to entirely rely on Nechung for the growth of Dharma? Nope, I don't think that is wise. But I think (and this is just my perception) that HHDL consults Nechung not because he is a spirit, but behind supporting this spirit is great Padmasambhava. Therefore, it looks like HHDL relies on Padmasambhava, not the spirit Nechung. So if HHDL does not rely on a spirit, even Nechung, then there is nothing to question about taking refuge to a spirit... that would be wrong to say the least.

However, I do believe the Nechung is essential in the arising of Dorje Shugden, as he was the one that made a request and reminded Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen on His promise to arise as a Dharma protector. Lets not talk about Setrap being instrumental in saving Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen from the fire pujas... Nechung would have but he would have been destroyed by the fire puja since he's a spirit...

So now we question, why request and help the arrival of Dorje Shugden, and then ban His practice? The only logical reason left is because Nechung is preparing for his ascend to a higher state and opening a doorway for DS to take. I suppose this explains why Nechung have been more and more reluctant to speak, and his prophecies less accurate, INTENTIONALLY, to lessen reliance on him and allow DS to step in at the right time.

[beggar]

I think it's important to also consider what the context is of Nechung making these supposed mistakes. When we hear of these "mistakes" we need to check if the full story was really accounted for, or how the mistakes were being conveyed or interpreted. A  commonly misunderstood mistake was this: that Nechung had wrongly advised the Dalai Lama to stay in the Potala Palace and that it was only later that Dorje Shugden adviced the Dalai Lama to leave.

How, we think, is it possible for Nechung to make such a potentially disastrous mistaken that have literally meant the death of the Dalai Lama?

It is only when we learn that in fact, there was Chinese presence within that audience / trance with Nechung - so this supposed mistake was actually only to protect the safety of the Dalai Lama. Excluding just one fact can change the entire context and meaning of what is perceived to be a mistake. Later, Dorje Shugden gave the 'right' prophecy and guidance for the Dalai Lama to leave the potala to India, and even showed the correct route to take. So was Nechung really making such a stupid mistake? Or was he working hand-in-hand with the Dalai Lama?

[Big Uncle]

Nechung is a long controversial figure and whose history is intertwined with the fate of Tibet. He is definitely unenlightened but according to Tibetan tradition, is on the brink of enlightenment as explained in the Changing of the Guardians' article as I quote here ( http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/universal-protector-of-future-buddhism/ )

"The southern gate is held closed in accordance with an old tradition that the chokyong Dorje Shugden is waiting at this entrance for the day to come on which he will be allowed to enter the monastery, to succeed Pehar as the chief dharmapala of Tibet…René de Nebesky-Wojkowitz, “Oracles and Demons of Tibet”, page 445, in his description of Nechung Gompa."

The reason for Nechung Pehar to vacate his temple would be for him to ascend towards the stratosphere of enlightenment. I managed to find this book Oracles and Demons of Tibet and had to battle its voluminous descriptions of wrathful protectors and there's even a chapter devoted to Nechung although this earlier quote was from another chapter. I found this line on page 125 that was particular important and none-worthy:-

"A Tibetan popular belief claims that Pe har, who will become shortly a 'jig rten las 'das pa'i srung ma, feels mroe and more reluctant to speak throught the oracle-priest of Nechung, and that in many cases rDo rje grags ldan answers in his place."

I think this is significant because I believe that this is proof of whats happening to Nechung and the strange turnaround support for Dorje Shugden. According to Trijang Rinpoche, Nechung was instrumental with the manifestation of Dorje Shugden. However, Nechung today speaks of Dorje Shugden as a spirit and seems to be in line with the Dalai Lama's direction of banning Dorje Shugden's practice. This combined with the fact that Nechung Pehar hardly speaks through the oracles these days and its mainly Dorje Drakden that delivers the prophesies. I am no seer and no prophet but I do see that things are moving closer and closer towards the direction of Dorje Shugden's favor.

[tsangpakarpo]

I think it's important to also consider what the context is of Nechung making these supposed mistakes. When we hear of these "mistakes" we need to check if the full story was really accounted for, or how the mistakes were being conveyed or interpreted. A  commonly misunderstood mistake was this: that Nechung had wrongly advised the Dalai Lama to stay in the Potala Palace and that it was only later that Dorje Shugden adviced the Dalai Lama to leave.

How, we think, is it possible for Nechung to make such a potentially disastrous mistaken that have literally meant the death of the Dalai Lama?

It is only when we learn that in fact, there was Chinese presence within that audience / trance with Nechung - so this supposed mistake was actually only to protect the safety of the Dalai Lama. Excluding just one fact can change the entire context and meaning of what is perceived to be a mistake. Later, Dorje Shugden gave the 'right' prophecy and guidance for the Dalai Lama to leave the potala to India, and even showed the correct route to take. So was Nechung really making such a stupid mistake? Or was he working hand-in-hand with the Dalai Lama?

I would think Nechung is working hand in hand with the Dalai Lama for the arisal of Dorje Shugden. You see, with the Dalai Lama making his way to India means that he is now out of Tibet and into the world. It is because of the Dalai Lama leaving Tibet that the world at large gets to benefit from his teachings and most importantly got to know better about the Dorje Shugden issue. Although the issue is now at its negative stage where the Dalai Lama has established a ban on the practice, the fact that more people know about it now tells a lot.

Because of the ban there were protests, Dalai Lama speaking about Dorje Shugden's ban in his teachings worldwide and even news coverage worldwide of the issue. So I really think that Nechung is infact working along with the Dalai Lama to spread the practice of Dorje Shugden using skillful means.

[Positive Change]

I think it's important to also consider what the context is of Nechung making these supposed mistakes. When we hear of these "mistakes" we need to check if the full story was really accounted for, or how the mistakes were being conveyed or interpreted. A  commonly misunderstood mistake was this: that Nechung had wrongly advised the Dalai Lama to stay in the Potala Palace and that it was only later that Dorje Shugden adviced the Dalai Lama to leave.

How, we think, is it possible for Nechung to make such a potentially disastrous mistaken that have literally meant the death of the Dalai Lama?

It is only when we learn that in fact, there was Chinese presence within that audience / trance with Nechung - so this supposed mistake was actually only to protect the safety of the Dalai Lama. Excluding just one fact can change the entire context and meaning of what is perceived to be a mistake. Later, Dorje Shugden gave the 'right' prophecy and guidance for the Dalai Lama to leave the potala to India, and even showed the correct route to take. So was Nechung really making such a stupid mistake? Or was he working hand-in-hand with the Dalai Lama?

I would think Nechung is working hand in hand with the Dalai Lama for the arisal of Dorje Shugden. You see, with the Dalai Lama making his way to India means that he is now out of Tibet and into the world. It is because of the Dalai Lama leaving Tibet that the world at large gets to benefit from his teachings and most importantly got to know better about the Dorje Shugden issue. Although the issue is now at its negative stage where the Dalai Lama has established a ban on the practice, the fact that more people know about it now tells a lot.

Because of the ban there were protests, Dalai Lama speaking about Dorje Shugden's ban in his teachings worldwide and even news coverage worldwide of the issue. So I really think that Nechung is infact working along with the Dalai Lama to spread the practice of Dorje Shugden using skillful means.

I do like what you have said here Q... It does make sense when we take all circumstances and view the whole picture from beginning to the present. There has been a certain consistencies in Nechung's inconsistencies. I do not believe that the "mistakes" Nechung makes are merely slip-ups of an unenlightened being. Surely HHDL would see through the charade or mistakes even!

So why are these so called 'mistakes' allowed by HHDL? I believe there is a reason behind it all. The example above is a very clear example of how a 'mistake' could be seen as a beneficial one as it protected HHDL's life. Imagine if the Chinese knew of the impending plan of HHDL wanting to leave Tibet. Tibetan Buddhism as we see now would have been obliterated if HHDL did not flee Tibet then!

Hence there are many 'workings' of the attained minds that we mere mortals may not comprehend. We need to trust our Gurus and know that they only want the best for us and have our best interest at heart for this life and our future lives!

[Ensapa]

So is Nechung a Buddha? No a spirit bound by oath by Padmasambhava.

My understanding is, it is from advice from this state oracle (not a Buddha but a spirit), that the Dalai Lama has banned the practice of the Wisdom Buddha, appearing in the wrathful aspect of Dorje Shugden, because of the advise of a spirit, that claims Dorje Shugden to be not is not a Buddha but an evil spirit.

Whereas many great enlightened Gelupa lineage Gurus such as Kyabje Phabonkha Rinpoche,  Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, & Kyabje Zong Rinpoche and many others have taught that  Wisdom Buddha Dorje Shugden is a Buddha, the embodiment of the wisdom of ALL Buddhas, appearing in a wrathful aspect to protect the Dharma & specifically the teachings of Je Tsonhkhapa and by managing the conditions of  Gelugpa Practitioners who rely upon him to steer these practitioners along the most appropriate path  to gain liberation and enlightenment for the sake of all living beings.

Why is it then that we who follow the path, laid open for us by this great Protector Dorje Shugden, the Wisdom Buddha,  do not emphasise more the hypocrisy of someone who claims we are spirit worshipers, when he himself has taken this view, not  from an enlightened being but from an oath bound spirit.

He who claims that we are not Buddhists because we follow and worship a spirit is, himself lead by the advice of a Spirit.

We as Buddhist go for refuge to the Three Jewels, Buddha Dharma and Sangha. Not to Buddha, Dharma, Sangha, and spirits (via their oracles).

It is Interesting to note that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso as stopped the use of oracles in the Western tradition of the New Kadamapa Tradition.

What confuses me is this - Nechung was instrumental in the arisal of Dorje Shugden as a Dharma Protector. He got Dulzin Dragpa Gyaltsan to promise to become an uncommon protector, and then reminded Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsan of that promise and said he would create the circumstances for vajra wrath to arise in TDGs mindstream so he can become a Dharma Protector.

Im thinking why go through all that trouble if Nechung is then going to advise HH Dalai Lama to ban the practice?

So I am thinking about this whole issue  in relations to something I read recently about the southern door of the Nechung gompa, and how Dorje Shugden is waiting to enter when Nechung becomes enlightened. Perhaps now is the time for Dorje Shugden to take the mantle as the worlds Protector, and for Nechung to bow out.

So perhaps Nechung is manifesting mistakes to lower peoples reliance on him. Perhaps the joke is that his prophecy about Dorje Shugden is just another mistake and once people realise that, they will dump their reliance on him (Nechung) and go back to Dorje Shugden with twice the faith to make up for the persecution against him.

Obviously this is all speculation and conjecture, and open to debate...so I invite you to debate!
[/quote]

If Nechung caused Dorje Shugden to arise, it would mean that although Nechung is not enlightened, he does have some form of Buddhist attainments to be able to let go and create and allow a Dharma protector thats more powerful than him to exist. And as to what you have read, I have read it too that when Dorje Shugden went to Nechung's temple and tried to enter as a protector, he was blocked by the guards from entering, which meant that his time was not yet 350 years ago. Now, it seems that Nechung's time to enter nivarna is near and it is Dorje Shugden's time to take Nechung's place as the main protector of Tibetan Buddhism.

[WisdomBeing]

What i am personally curious about is that everywhere, it is said that Nechung is unenlightened, but according to "Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors" http://www.dorjeshugden.com/articles/musicdelighting.pdf, it is said that:

"..his later incarnation, Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen, was urged by the Great Dharma King Nechung to remember his previous promise..... that Protector of the Four Places, the Dharma King Nechung,." (pg 92-93) "..he went to Pehar's temple and said to the Dharma King Nechung,....Soon after that, emanations of the Dharma King Nechung, hosts of travelers from all over,.." (pg 94)

Why Great Dharma King as an adjective? I thought it only applied to enlightened beings.

"It would appear that the name, 'Dorje Shugden Tsel', Mighty Dorje Shugden, was also given by the Great Dharma King Nechung.." (pg 108)

It was even Nechung who gave Dorje Shugden his name.

"..To take an example, those such as the great yaksha Tsiu Marpo and King Pehar are, in actuality, definitely Buddhas, and fully renowned as protectors of Buddha's teachings.....With one expression Pehar may help someone, and with another he may obstruct someone, but his actions are not conceivable to ordinary thought. When dispatched for activity, Pehar is made offerings in the aspect of a Dharma protector and requested to perform activities, while, on the other hand, the very same Pehar is often dispatched on missions in the aspect of a demon. Understanding these profound points alone is completely liberating." (pg 111)

Here, Lelung Shepay Dorje quotes in Losel Gyatso's biography, "Dispelling the Darkness of Torment", that King Pehar is a Buddha!

and in pg 130, it is stated that "Again, the Dharma Protector known as Great King Pehar is of a nature of the Buddhas of the Five Families."

Could someone help to clarify this for me? Many thanks in advance!

[Ensapa]

What i am personally curious about is that everywhere, it is said that Nechung is unenlightened, but according to "Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors" http://www.dorjeshugden.com/articles/musicdelighting.pdf, it is said that:

"..his later incarnation, Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen, was urged by the Great Dharma King Nechung to remember his previous promise..... that Protector of the Four Places, the Dharma King Nechung,." (pg 92-93) "..he went to Pehar's temple and said to the Dharma King Nechung,....Soon after that, emanations of the Dharma King Nechung, hosts of travelers from all over,.." (pg 94)

Why Great Dharma King as an adjective? I thought it only applied to enlightened beings.

"It would appear that the name, 'Dorje Shugden Tsel', Mighty Dorje Shugden, was also given by the Great Dharma King Nechung.." (pg 108)

It was even Nechung who gave Dorje Shugden his name.

"..To take an example, those such as the great yaksha Tsiu Marpo and King Pehar are, in actuality, definitely Buddhas, and fully renowned as protectors of Buddha's teachings.....With one expression Pehar may help someone, and with another he may obstruct someone, but his actions are not conceivable to ordinary thought. When dispatched for activity, Pehar is made offerings in the aspect of a Dharma protector and requested to perform activities, while, on the other hand, the very same Pehar is often dispatched on missions in the aspect of a demon. Understanding these profound points alone is completely liberating." (pg 111)

Here, Lelung Shepay Dorje quotes in Losel Gyatso's biography, "Dispelling the Darkness of Torment", that King Pehar is a Buddha!

and in pg 130, it is stated that "Again, the Dharma Protector known as Great King Pehar is of a nature of the Buddhas of the Five Families."

Could someone help to clarify this for me? Many thanks in advance!

There are 2 ways to interpret this - historically and from an enlightened point of view.

Historically, Tsui Marpo, Setrab and Dorje Shugden are considered unenlightened at the time when they appeared (probably during the 14-16th century) and the Sakyas refer to them as Gyalpo Sum - the 3 spirit kings, gyalpo meaning both king and spirit at the same time. But on the other hand there are references even within the Sakya tradition that Tsui Marpo is in reality Hayagriva, Setrab is Amithaba and Dorje Shugden is Manjushri. Historically is what is being traditionally believed many hundreds of years ago when the masters have not seen the true nature of these Dharma protectors, but yet people kind of stick to the 'safe' definition that they are not enlightened without any consideration of the time that has passed and the possibility that they are really enlightened, and that the time for them to manifest enlightened activity is near.

Within Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors, there is also a prophecy that tells of Nechung retiring from his role as a Dharma protector and attaining enlightenment, and it is during this time where Dorje Shugden will take over this role. Nechung might not be enlightened during Guru Rinpoche's time, but he could have gotten enlightened over time. An alternative view is to see that Nechung has been enlightened all along but choose to display worldly activity to create an enlightened play to help subdue the minds of the Tibetans.