India purposely targets Karmapa who is chosen by Dalai Lama?

[Namdrol]

Previously we heard news of the 17th Karmapa Urgyen Trinley getting into trouble with the Indian authority about some illegal funds (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1051.0), now his guru Tai Situpa Rinpoche (the one that recognized him) got into trouble over some luxury cars that evaded tax. Is the Indian government purposely targeting this Karmapa chosen by the Dalai Lama, either pressured by China, or simply to curry China's favor?

http://zeenews.india.com/news/nation/tibetan-leader-under-lens-for-alleged-tax-evasion_783576.html

New Delhi: A top Tibetan religious leader has come under the scanner of Directorate of Revenue Intelligence for allegedly evading duty charges on four luxury vehicles imported from Bhutan.
 
Acting on an information, the DRI claimed to have found that the four vehicles bearing Bhutan registration numbers were brought in the country allegedly by the present Gyalwang Karmapa's guru Kenting Tai Situ Rinpoche without paying requisite fee or completing necessary formalities.
 
The DRI authorities have written to Palpung Sherubling Monastery, a seat of Rinpoche, for providing necessary information in this regard.
 
"Till date, we neither have received responses from the Monastery nor have been provided with relevant papers of the cars. We have asked Himachal Pradesh Police to impound the vehicle," a DRI official said.
 
The vehicle which were brought in the country include Isuzu Trooper and Land Rover.
 
"We have received a letter from the DRI. The vehicles have already been impounded from the premises of Palpung Sherubling Monastery. A case has already been registered by Baijnath Police Station of Kangra District of Himachal Pradesh in this regard," said Kangra SP Diljeet Thakur.

The case has been registered under Section 207 of the Motor Vehicles Act which authorises the police to seize or detain a vehicle in case it is not being used in the prescribed manner.
 
When contacted, Situ Rinpoche's office said, "The issue is now between the government of Bhutan and the Ministry of External Affairs, government of India. The MEA has written to the Himachal government to settle the issue".

[Ensapa]

Personally, I dont think that the Indian government is doing this to curry favor with China. If india wanted to really curry favor with China, they would have declared CTA illegal and not allow CTA to carry out its activities on indian soil or carry out raids on the CTA office and CTA related offices in india on a regular basis. That would make China extremely happy indeed. They could also have deported the fresh Tibetan refugees back to China but they did not. This shows that they are not doing so to gain China's favor. India is also a powerful nation in their own right, In a way, it does prove that the allegations against the Tai Situpa and Orgyen Trinley in the book Buddha's not smiling as being true in some way because the book says that Tai Situpa wanted to recognize Orgyen Trinley in order to gain control of Rumtek, the traditional seat of the karmapas, together with all the treasures that are stored within that were the offering items of the previous karmapa, including the original black hat of the karmapa that was made and created by the Ming emperor for the Karmapa. Since the law of Karma is infallible and that the results resemble the cause, if the allegations were not true then they would not have procured these results. I find it sad that at this day and age, many people who are Buddhists still do not understand the law of Karma to the point where these great masters have no choice but to manifest actions that bring on unfortunate results to themselves to show directly that the law of karma works and nobody can be excused or escape from its results. That is from a Buddhist point of view, anyway.

From a secular perspective, what is interesting is, shouldnt these be done and prepared by the assistants of Tai Situpa? is it not them who is supposed to do the necessary paperwork or documents to get the cars over even if they are offered to the Tai Situpa. Again, this is a recurring problem with many Tibetans as they seem to have disregard against the authorities of the land. The incident where the Tibetan government office in Nepal closed down because nobody bothered to do the proper paperworks is another proof that they do not respect the laws of the land at all or even bother to find out if there are any procedures to be done before they should proceed. It is a recurring problem with the Tibetans, it seems. If the assistants were more competent, these incidents would not have happened. Thats all there is to it.

[Barzin]

I agree with Ensapa.  Personally i feel that the Karmapa manifested in a way to spread the Buddhist teachings so that people can relate to through our samsara point of view.  If they are pure monks they would have known the law of karma and the law of karma effect but why would they proceed anyway? 

I don't think the Indian government is doing this to favor China.  It all boils down to Karmapa manifesting the incident and create awareness to connect people to the dharma.  Buddhism is all about the negative turned into positive.  It resembles the ban, it might look all negative now but soon it will become clear and positive.  It is just us people find it hard to comprehend but if you believe the lama has the wisdom and act of compassion, anything that they manifested is a direct way to bring dharma to us.

[shugdenpromoter]

These 2 countries (sino-china) are known for their dispute over centuries. Besides economy and also long standing border dispute, India has been sheltering the Tibetans since 1959 including HH. This is something which the Chinese does not condone. Whether India is doing this for humanity reasons or as an agenda towards China, to many of us it does not matter. The Indians have been kind to these Tibetans, they have provided a home for them.

Which links back to this topic whether the Indian purposely targets Karmapa to amalgamate with the Chinese. It might be true as the government between themselves to exert pressure on each others very often. The point which I would like to make is that it does not matter.

Look, because of this "bad" news, the Karmapa name has become known. In the PR world, there is no such thing as bad news, bad news if handled well, can be good news thus why do you think celebrities around the world and especially Hollywood has bad news all the time. Their adultery, addiction and etc are known publicly. Kate Moss was caught with drugs...yes, she lost a few of her endorsement contract at that time but 1 year later, she became more sought after. Just like how Tibetans lost their country and based on this, Tibetan Buddhism flourished at a faster pace after they lost their country. Another case study...SHUGDEN BAN. Now, the protector Shugden is known. Shugden even appeared in Time magazine.

Thus, I strongly believe that all high lamas including HH knows what this Shugden outcome will be. There is nothing to loose and the only results which has been consistent is that Shugden has become FAMOUS since the ban.

 

[Ensapa]

These 2 countries (sino-china) are known for their dispute over centuries. Besides economy and also long standing border dispute, India has been sheltering the Tibetans since 1959 including HH. This is something which the Chinese does not condone. Whether India is doing this for humanity reasons or as an agenda towards China, to many of us it does not matter. The Indians have been kind to these Tibetans, they have provided a home for them.

Which links back to this topic whether the Indian purposely targets Karmapa to amalgamate with the Chinese. It might be true as the government between themselves to exert pressure on each others very often. The point which I would like to make is that it does not matter.

Look, because of this "bad" news, the Karmapa name has become known. In the PR world, there is no such thing as bad news, bad news if handled well, can be good news thus why do you think celebrities around the world and especially Hollywood has bad news all the time. Their adultery, addiction and etc are known publicly. Kate Moss was caught with drugs...yes, she lost a few of her endorsement contract at that time but 1 year later, she became more sought after. Just like how Tibetans lost their country and based on this, Tibetan Buddhism flourished at a faster pace after they lost their country. Another case study...SHUGDEN BAN. Now, the protector Shugden is known. Shugden even appeared in Time magazine.

Thus, I strongly believe that all high lamas including HH knows what this Shugden outcome will be. There is nothing to loose and the only results which has been consistent is that Shugden has become FAMOUS since the ban.

As you know, there are actually more things that the Karmapa can do to attract publicity for himself such as travelling around and meeting more and more people, or giving public teachings and initiations. A scandal now does not exactly help him at this moment as he just got out of trouble with the money issue (which, could also have been avoided if not for incompetent attendants who could have recorded everything and kept everything in check) and I dont think people actually do respect him much due to these issues. It is more on why is he keeping a very low profile for now and why is he not giving teachings as much as his predecessor used to as this will cause people to lose faith in in him. But why continuos mistakes that could have been prevented/is clear that it is the work of an incompetent assistant that got the Karmapa into this predicament. If the Karmapa cannot even have good assistants, then how can he be able to administer the CTA if he cannot even handle his own ladrang efficiently?

Having publicity in the world is one thing, but having bad assistants is definitely a separate issue that needs to be addressed. I do find it sad that these days, more and more lamas have the issue of suffering from incompetent assistants or rude assistants, especially with the case of the Lamas who are based overseas and they have students that are not Tibetan or who do not understand the Tibetan culture and thus they do not know the proper etiquette on serving a Lama. But apparently these days, even the Tibetan ones are not doing a good job. No wonder the Karmapa cannot expand or cannot be popular, because of an incompetent ladrang. I guess it is safe to say that if he had more competent assistants, he would not have gotten mentioned in the news for negative things in the first place, but perhaps all those are part of a plan to teach people in more ways than one. The Karmapa is still young compared to many old masters, so he still has time before he starts his rounds of intense teaching. It would be interesting to see how Orgyen Trinley will manifest, or if he will take up HHDL's place when HHDL passes away.

[Big Uncle]

You know what I think? The Indian government is targeting the Karmapa because their red flags went up with the discovery of so much funds entering India via China. A lof of the cash was in Chinese currency and this makes the Karmapa look highly suspicious for being a Chinese spy in India.

Although the Karmapa escaped the Chinese and is residing in India, the Chinese government has not denounced the Karmapa and this is highly suspicious because they are highly vocal about other matters. Let's not forget that the Chinese authorities have also recognized this Karmapa as well. This adds to the Indian government's suspicion. Although the Karmapa is acquitted of all charges, the Indian government may not be taking this lightly and may be keeping their eyes peeled on Karmapa and his immediate circle.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

[thor]

Personally, I dont think that the Indian government is doing this to curry favor with China. If india wanted to really curry favor with China, they would have declared CTA illegal and not allow CTA to carry out its activities on indian soil or carry out raids on the CTA office and CTA related offices in india on a regular basis. That would make China extremely happy indeed. They could also have deported the fresh Tibetan refugees back to China but they did not. This shows that they are not doing so to gain China's favor. India is also a powerful nation in their own right.

I disagree. India is not a young country, politically and diplomatically. To kick out the Tibetan refugees and the CTA out of the country is an irrevocable and very harsh step that India is not prepared to make at this time. The Dalai Lama's profile is too high in the world, and this move would give India very bad publicity especially if the Dalai Lama speaks against India's actions. They are too smart and too seasoned to do that.

Instead, what India is doing is to show their displeasure with certain Tibetan Lamas who flout the country's laws. I am certain that such problems are not confined to just Karmapa or Tai Situ Rinpoche. I am sure there are other Lamas who are in similar situations because they are probably unaware of the nitty gritty paperwork. Perhaps, as Big Uncle says, India is also suspicious of the foreign funds pouring into the country from China. The big difference however, is that India is now I afraid to put their foot down against the Tibetan people, who have been in the country for tens of years, and what have they done for the good of India? Perhaps India just wants the Tibetans out? And they are no longer afraid to show it?

Plus, it helps in relations with China... All I can say is, the CTA had better watch their backs. With the Dalai Lama out of power, the worlds support for them is fast dwindling, and they have wasted the past ten years battling the Shugden issue, instead of focusing on education, growth, health and wealth for their people. Time is running out...

[Ensapa]

To me, if India was really pissed with the Tibetans, there are better ways of showing their displeasure at them such as making visas to enter the Tibetan colony a lot harder, imposing more rules on the Tibetan colony and snubbing members of the CTA from attending any of their events. India could also demand tax from the CTA for staying at their land. There are just so many ways that India can make things difficult for the Tibetans but they seem to be very wary of the Tibetans ever since they started the campaign of silly protests in New York and whatnot. It could also be India reminding the Tibetans to respect the laws of India as opposed to doing whatever they please on Indian soil. I know that the Tibetans are an unruly bunch and that they have problems following authority but sometimes, too much is too much. They have to show gratitude to the Indian government, and the people have to actually remember that they are there with the settlement because of the kindness of the Indian government and not take it for granted as its not really their homeland. But even if it is their homeland, they should not misbehave either and respect the rules of the land.

If India were to bow down to China's demands, the first thing they will do is not allow Tibetan refugees to cross the border from Tibet to India and deport those who did back to Tibet immediately. It is technically not wrong for India to do so as it is their country and they have a say whether or not they allow more Tibetans to come in or not, but so far the Indian government has not done so. Secondly, they would have daily raids and checks on all the Tibetan monasteries and the Dalai Lama's office just to make things difficult for them and to show China that they are on China's side. But they are not. So to me, what the Tibetans are doing to get this kind of results are just a breach in protocol and a result of not respecting the rules of the land. Unfortunately, it is really up to the Tibetans to actually learn and follow the correct procedures instead of doing what they want on the land of others. If they fail to, they will just have to face the consequences.

[michaela]

Looking at the discussion thread above, I wonder, why the fact that Indian government upholding the law of their land being interpreted in so many ways.  Can it be seen just as it is?  An Indian government upholding the law of their land?

Honestly, I think the Indian government has been so kind by allowing the Tibetan refugees to stay at their country at all.  If there were mistakes that should be punishable by Indian Law, don’t they have the rights to uphold it?  Should they be selective and make exceptions because Karmapa and Tai Situpa are High Lamas?

High Lamas primary purpose in this world is to teach.  It is the assistants and attendants job to get their secular affairs in order so the lamas can fulfil their purpose.  Some Lamas purposely chose incapable assistants out of compassion just like when the previous HH Trijang Rinpoche tolerated Rigzin, his incapable manager.  But I honestly think that these incapable assistants should be replaced because they reduced and incapacitated their Lamas’ activities.

[Ensapa]

Some comments and addons to what you just said:

Looking at the discussion thread above, I wonder, why the fact that Indian government upholding the law of their land being interpreted in so many ways.  Can it be seen just as it is?  An Indian government upholding the law of their land?
The indians have their own law system which is the same as any other country, so whats wrong with them enforcing the rules the way that they need to? they do have problems such as corruption but the laws of the land will still be upheld in general, and isnt it the duty of those who reside in there to learn of them and uphold it?
Honestly, I think the Indian government has been so kind by allowing the Tibetan refugees to stay at their country at all.  If there were mistakes that should be punishable by Indian Law, don’t they have the rights to uphold it?  Should they be selective and make exceptions because Karmapa and Tai Situpa are High Lamas?
When we assume that the indians are targeting the karmapa and tai situpa due to the chinese influence (paranoid we are) we're still assuming that they're still in tibet. we're assuming that they have special privileges where they have exceptions in the laws of the land. But no. This is not Tibet or Bhutan. This is India and they have their own laws and no matter who you are if you break it you have to be responsible. Let's just like face the facts here.
High Lamas primary purpose in this world is to teach.  It is the assistants and attendants job to get their secular affairs in order so the lamas can fulfil their purpose.  Some Lamas purposely chose incapable assistants out of compassion just like when the previous HH Trijang Rinpoche tolerated Rigzin, his incapable manager.  But I honestly think that these incapable assistants should be replaced because they reduced and incapacitated their Lamas’ activities.
If they really love the Lama, they could improve, or they could voluntarily resign with the basis that they do not want to burden the Lama and cause more problems. Thats what i feel, anyway.

[Big Uncle]

Personally, I dont think that the Indian government is doing this to curry favor with China. If india wanted to really curry favor with China, they would have declared CTA illegal and not allow CTA to carry out its activities on indian soil or carry out raids on the CTA office and CTA related offices in india on a regular basis. That would make China extremely happy indeed. They could also have deported the fresh Tibetan refugees back to China but they did not. This shows that they are not doing so to gain China's favor. India is also a powerful nation in their own right.

I disagree. India is not a young country, politically and diplomatically. To kick out the Tibetan refugees and the CTA out of the country is an irrevocable and very harsh step that India is not prepared to make at this time. The Dalai Lama's profile is too high in the world, and this move would give India very bad publicity especially if the Dalai Lama speaks against India's actions. They are too smart and too seasoned to do that.

Instead, what India is doing is to show their displeasure with certain Tibetan Lamas who flout the country's laws. I am certain that such problems are not confined to just Karmapa or Tai Situ Rinpoche. I am sure there are other Lamas who are in similar situations because they are probably unaware of the nitty gritty paperwork. Perhaps, as Big Uncle says, India is also suspicious of the foreign funds pouring into the country from China. The big difference however, is that India is now I afraid to put their foot down against the Tibetan people, who have been in the country for tens of years, and what have they done for the good of India? Perhaps India just wants the Tibetans out? And they are no longer afraid to show it?

Plus, it helps in relations with China... All I can say is, the CTA had better watch their backs. With the Dalai Lama out of power, the worlds support for them is fast dwindling, and they have wasted the past ten years battling the Shugden issue, instead of focusing on education, growth, health and wealth for their people. Time is running out...

Thanks Thor, for you input on this matter. You have a very rational view of things and I really like it when you put things into perspective. I think that India will never dare extradite the Tibetans after graciously being a host for so many years. I believe the Indian government is very proud of what the Dalai Lama has done and they are happy that he brings millions of tourists a year to India to see the Tibetan monasteries, Lamas and of course, to see the Dalai Lama himself.

The Dalai Lama has single-handedly returned the kindness of his home country by becoming such a religious celebrity that millions from all over the world come knocking onto his doorstep in India to have audience and this invariably provides and economic benefit for the Indian government. There's just too much at stake for the Indians to ever revoke their hospitality and the Tibetans are pretty easy too as long as they keep low key and don't irk the Chinese too much. After all, trade is very important to Indians as it keeps the curry and rice on the tables of ordinary Indians and one the biggest partners to the Indians is of course, the Chinese.

[Ensapa]

I found an article that talks about the delicate balance between India, China and Tibet and why is it that it would be a bit odd to say that India will bow in to China's demands now when it did not before. This should give some food for thought as we're discussing about how India is caving in to China...when it did not before. So what's really going on?

The article also mentions the latest generation of Tibetans who want more to be done for Tibet's freedom and who finds HHDL's approach too soft. Perhaps, that is China's real threat and not the Dalai Lama?

Tibet, India, China, and the Yearning for Freedom
By Kapil Komireddi

Jamphel Yeshi was one of the hundreds of Tibetans who gathered in New Delhi earlier this week to demonstrate against Chinese president Hu Jintao’s visit to India as part of the annual BRICS summit. As the Indian police attempted to thwart their peaceful protest, Yeshi doused himself with kerosene and set fire to his body. Engulfed in flames, he charged through the street, screaming pro-freedom slogans – and joined the dozens who have immolated their bodies to draw attention to the brutal crackdown in Tibet by Chinese forces.

India spent the last decade trumpeting its democracy as it steered closer to the United States. And yet its response to Yeshi’s sacrifice would make a dictator proud. Eager to not offend the visiting Chinese head of state, India invoked a colonial-era law against the Tibetans in New Delhi. As of today, every Tibetan in the city is effectively under house arrest.

Students are holed up inside their hostels. Families are barred from leaving their homes. Children have been forced to miss school. Patients cannot visit the hospital. Any gathering of Tibetans – however small and whatever its purpose – is cause for arrest.

In America’s imagination, India often appears as the democratic counterweight to authoritarian China’s rise. “If America’s future competitor in the world is likely to be China,” Robert Kagan recently wrote in a celebrated essay, “then a richer and more powerful India will be an asset, not a liability, to the United States.”

In reality, it was a considerably poorer and weaker India that ever truly challenged China in the name of liberal democratic values. India granted asylum to the Dalai Lama in 1959 despite Zhou Enlai’s threats, and Beijing’s persistent demand that Tibetans be banned from protesting against China elicited a brief answer from India’s foreign office: “There is by law and Constitution complete freedom of expression of opinion in Parliament and the press and elsewhere in India”.

This unyielding resolve to uphold rights will seem almost foreign to anyone acquainted with the state of free expression in today’s India. Only last year, India imposed cuts on a Bollywood movie that displayed a stray “Free Tibet” flag for a fleeting moment.

India’s placatory approach towards Beijing has been partly shaped by the humiliating experience of defeat at the hands of China in a brief war the two nations fought in 1962 over contested territory on the Tibetan plateau. Beijing declared a unilateral ceasefire and retreated just as American jumbo jets, flown to aid India’s assault, began landing in West Bengal.

But the perception of China as an invincible power remains pervasive in India. Today, even the most blatant provocation by China – such as incursions into Indian territory by the People’s Liberation Army – does not provoke an official response that surpasses “disappointment”. New Delhi also expects Beijing to reward its conciliatory attitude with a permanent settlement to the longstanding territorial disputes between the two countries – a hopelessly roseate view given Beijing’s abiding support for anti-India insurgencies.

New Delhi’s cowardice when it comes to defending democratic values should trouble all those in the West who champion India because it is a democracy. Its reluctance to interfere in third party disputes – between Iran and Israel, for instance – is perhaps understandable. But its willingness to paralyze pro-democracy activists who rely on it for refuge so that it can appease the unelected leaders in Beijing is an unpardonable departure from its claim to being a liberal democracy.

Ever since China’s bloody annexation of Tibet in the 1950s, India has hosted the world’s largest population of Buddhist refugees fleeing Chinese rule. An estimated three thousand Tibetans arrive in India each year. Having experienced Chinese colonial rule, these Tibetans are attracted to India not because it is just another rapidly expanding Asian economy. They flock to India because it offers something greater, something that China, with all its power and affluence, does not possess: the promise of freedom.

On Tuesday, Indian police arrested the influential Tibetan poet Tenzin Tsundue as he was finishing a speech to a women’s organisation in New Delhi. Tsundue represents a new generation of restless Tibetans eager to reclaim their home. Before he was violently dragged away by the police, he spoke his final words: “India gives us our strength, our confidence – India is our guru.” If that doesn’t shame India, nothing can.