Why did Buddha hesitated to allow His mother to join the Order?

[Jessie Fong]

When Queen Maha Pajapati asked the Buddha to allow her to  join the Order, why did he hesitate but give permission later on?


Buddha initially did not allow His mother, Queen Maha Pajapati to join the Order but He gave permission later on.

Why?

I came across a short article on this, giving the following reasons for consideration:

* As she was a queen who knew only the life of comfort, it would be difficult for her to live a life of a recluse
* Queen Maha brought along 500 ladies from her court; this would require teachers to provide instruction and training.  Buddha himself could not be always accessible

What other reasons could there be for His initial hesitation?  Please share.  Thank you.

[pgdharma]

The Buddha may have hesitated to accept women into the order for several reasons. One might have been his compassion for the nuns, especially his aunt, for the bhikkhus and bhikkhunis received their food by collecting alms in the villages. Sometimes they received very little, just a handful of rice, a piece of bread, or some kind of vegetables. Imagine the elderly queen Mahapajapati and five hundred royal women going out begging. It would have been almost impossible because they had led such comfortable lives in the palace. Maybe out of compassion the Buddha did not want these women to face such hardship.
 
In addition, at that time there were no monasteries. The monastics lived a very difficult lifestyle, dwelling under trees and in caves. Who would give this group of wandering women dwelling places? Moreover, who would teach the nuns? They could be ordained, shave their heads, and put on robes, but if they did not receive an education and training, they would be just like any wanderer in India at that time. No plan for educating them existed yet. Later, it was established that the bhikkhu sangha could assign a few excellent monks to teach the nuns.

Furthermore, the Buddha had already received criticism from lay people that he was destroying the family unit. To accept five hundred women into the order implied that he was going to destroy five hundred families because women were the heart of the family. However, later the Buddha learned that the husbands of these women had already joined the order. Thus by ordaining the women, he would not break up those families. The Buddha must have thought through all these issues, and upon realizing that the problems could be overcome, he accepted the nuns into the order.

It is also possible that he had never thought about women joining the order prior to Mahapajapati's request because in ancient India, women never left household life. In fact, it was unthinkable for women to be on their own at that time. Even nowadays in India, women seldom leave the family. But since the Buddha knew that enlightenment was a possibility for all human beings, he opened the door for women to be ordained. This was a revolutionary step given the social climate at the time.

Thus the bhikkhuni sangha was formed about seven or eight years after the bhikkhu sangha. This was seen as one of the reasons the Buddha made the bhikkhuni sangha subordinate to the bhikkhu sangha. They are subordinate in the sense of being younger sisters and elder brothers, not in the sense of being masters and slaves.

[Ensapa]

I believe this is the actual reason why:

"If, Ananda, women had not entered from household life into the houseless one, under the Doctrine and the Discipline announced by the Tathagata, religion, Ananda, would long endure; 1000 years would the Good Doctrine abide. But since, Ananda, women have now retired from household life to the houseless one, under the Doctrine and the Discipline announced by the Tathagata, not long, Ananda, will religion endure; but 500 years will the Good Doctrine abide." -- Sutta Pitaka

[fruven]

It is also possible that he had never thought about women joining the order prior to Mahapajapati's request because in ancient India, women never left household life. In fact, it was unthinkable for women to be on their own at that time. Even nowadays in India, women seldom leave the family. But since the Buddha knew that enlightenment was a possibility for all human beings, he opened the door for women to be ordained. This was a revolutionary step given the social climate at the time.

I doubt Buddha wouldn't know women would become nuns. It is when rather than not. From the side of the learner, us, who wish to and how determine we want to join the order.

The statements in bold are contradictory of each other.

[Ensapa]

To reiterate and refine what I have posted earlier, with regards to the thread's title to why the Buddha hesitated on ordaining nuns, there is a passage within a Sutra that the Buddha has prophesied that if he accepted nuns into the order, the Dharma will disappear 500 years earlier. The prophecy was quoted in my previous post. It is said that the Buddha himself initially refused to ordain any nuns, even when his stepmother and her 500 handmaidens shaved their hair and wore robes, until Ananda was moved by their sincerity that he begged the Buddha earnestly to ordain the nuns, upon which the Buddha told of the prophecy and finally agreed to the ordination.

[buddhalovely]

First of all Maha Pajapati was a queen who, along with 500 ladies of the court, knew only the life of comfort. To lead
a reclusive life allowing them only to sleep under the tree, or in the cave, would be too hard for them. Out of compassion the Buddha wanted them to think it over.

Furthermore, accepting a large group of women to be ordained all at once would immediately involve teachers to provide them both instruction and training. The Buddha also could not make himself constantly accessible for them. The Sangha was not ready with competent teachers to handle a large crowd of women. This proved to be a reality later on when women were already accepted to the Sangha. Monks who could teach the nuns must be not only learned but also require an appropriate attitude to help uplift women spiritually.The Buddha already received criticism from outsiders for breaking up families by ordaining either the husbands or wives. When Maha Pajapati approached him with 500 Sakiyanis, definitely this would be a major cause of criticism. Particularly Sakyas did not marry people from other clans.

By allowing 500 Sakiyanis to be ordained would definitely affect the social status quo. But it was revealed that these women’s husbands had already joined the Order. Thus, the criticism that accepting these women would break up their families became groundless.The fact that these women followed him on foot to Vesali is a proof of their genuine commitment to lead religious lives and removed the doubt that their request might be out of
momentary impulse.

These could have been some of the reasons behind the Buddha’s hesitation. The Buddha needed the time to examine
both the pros and cons to their request.Ananda also tried to understand the Buddha’s refusal. Is it because women are not capable of achieving spiritual enlightenment? If that is so, then ordination, a spiritual path is open only to men. To this, the Buddha made it clear that both men and women have equal potentiality to achieve spiritual enlightenment.We have to mark this statement, as this is the first time in the history of religion that a religious leader declared openly that men and women are equal on spiritual grounds.

Previously in the Hindu context, the Vedas, the most sacred religious texts, were available only to men. Buddhism has transcended race, nation, caste and gender differences to declare that the highest spiritual achievement transcends obstacles or discrimination of gender. With this important reason, the Buddha allowed women to join his Order.

[ratanasutra]

This ordination of nun is an interesting issue to public and some look at it as controversy issue too.

The early sangha or Buddhist church was clearly divided into four groups laymen, laywomen, monks and nuns. However, the issue of ordination of nuns into Buddhist monastic life has been a controversial one since its foundation. Gender biased rules and regulations may have led to disinterest from female practitioners to enter the monastic life. Monasteries of nuns in many Asian countries and in many different schools of Buddhism have been unable to sustain themselves and merely disappeared. However, in recent years interest seems to be burgeoning from the female population and attempts have been made in many countries to reinstate ordained nuns. While this has been successfully accomplished in nations such as Tibet, Sri Lanka, and Thailand, controversy continues to arise as to the legitimacy and protocol appropriate in these ordinations. The controversy over the legitimacy of a nun's ordination is part of an ongoing debate, which can be traced to the first establishment of women as Buddhist monastics.

According to legend, Siddhartha Guatama originally established three branches to his sangha. Nuns were only later recognized after he was persuaded by his foster mother, Mahaprajapati Guatami, and his disciple Ananda. When approached by his foster mother and some other women Siddhartha told them that they should not wish to be admitted as nuns. This however did not deter the women, who found it a worthy cause to follow the Buddha despite his willingness to ordain them. They continued to follow the Buddha and to listen to his teachings until the disciple Ananda agreed to plead with the Buddha on behalf of the women.

Ananda approached the Buddha twice on their behalf. The Buddha repeated that the women should not wish to be admitted as nuns including that this would bring about great destruction. This continued rejection did not satiate the women's desire to join the order and they requested that Ananda return to 'the Blessed One a third time. Upon Ananda's third return and request for the women to be ordained, the Buddha is said to have agreed after reflecting and determining that rejecting the women again would cause mental anguish for Ananda. This would confuse the teachings that the Buddha had passed on to his disciple. The Buddha is said to have concluded the allowing women to be ordained would shorten the influence of his teachings by one half, but that this was better than allowing the teachings to become muddled by confusing Ananda. It is not clarified why the Buddha believed these things to be true of allowing women to practice the monastic life but in the end he gives permission to have them admitted as nuns. The women however were required to accept eight additional rules beyond those taken by monks. Most of these rules pertain to their interaction with monks and clearly set up nuns as hierarchically below monks.

Many scholars believe that these additional rules, which create a division between the genders, are to blame for the dying out of female monastic communities in many parts of the East. Nonetheless recent trends show a resurgence of female interest in the monastic community. Unfortunately the issue is far more complex than merely recreating lineages of nuns. Ordination of nuns must traditionally take place under the authority of both monks and nuns from a given lineage. The fact that many lines of nuns have died out completely makes them impossible to reestablish. In many countries such as Sri Lanka, Thailand and Tibet nuns have been brought from other areas of the world to take place in the ordination ceremonies. However, the authority of such ordinations has been the source of much controversy because they are said to threaten the purity of a particular school of Buddhism.

The question of establishing female monastic communities throughout the Buddhist world has never been simple. Important questions must be pondered regarding the reasoning behind the Buddha's hesitation toward establishing a female monastic community or his imposition of stricter rules for nuns compared to monks. If it is in fact true, as many scholars believe, that his hesitation was in relation to the anticipated reaction from a conservative Indian society, then these issues should be reevaluated in light of a constantly changing world. Regardless of one's stance on these issues, it does not seem likely that the issues surrounding Buddhism and women will quickly disappear. However, in the greater scheme of Buddhist philosophy one must ask whether such controversy only leads to distraction from greater Buddhist teaching. Perhaps this was the Buddha's fear in the first place when he claimed that admitting women as nuns would shorten the life of his teachings.
by Regina Van Vactor

[Q]

The Buddha did not give the ordination vows to the Queen out of His compassion. The Buddha wanted them to realize that the occasion of requesting to enter monastic life and pursuing a spiritual life is one that is very precious and not to be taken lightly. It is kind of like basic human nature... things that are difficult to get/achieve is always highly regarded and we will do all we can to maintain that. So in this way, by making it difficult to be ordained, they will realize the preciousness of being a nun and will maintain their state with great care.

Also, the Buddha wanted to make sure that his step mother, the Queen and her followers are 100% sure that this is the life they want to pursue. Thus He did not give the ordination initially, to test how far and how much they will go for the Dharma; which they did by travelling a long way and started living like a nun even before getting the ordination and permission from the Buddha. I believe this is very beautiful... they created the karmic causes to receive the ordination vows by adopting a nun's life and they went through great difficulty to travel a long distance to meet the Buddha.

[Ensapa]

I think everyone seems to be missing a very interesting point here, that the Buddha actually said that if he were to accept nuns into the order, the Dharma will end 500 years sooner than it would normally end. This is within the scripture itself. The question here is WHY. How would this be possible? Why is it that if women joined the order, it would hasten the demise of Buddhism from our world? That was the reason that the Buddha gave for not ordaining nuns, according to the sutras.

[Q]

I think everyone seems to be missing a very interesting point here, that the Buddha actually said that if he were to accept nuns into the order, the Dharma will end 500 years sooner than it would normally end. This is within the scripture itself. The question here is WHY. How would this be possible? Why is it that if women joined the order, it would hasten the demise of Buddhism from our world? That was the reason that the Buddha gave for not ordaining nuns, according to the sutras.

But in the end, the Buddha did give ordination to women.

Why would the ordination of women into monastics cause the Dharma to disappear 500 years earlier? What is the reason? Is there an explanation to this? And in your opinion, why did the Buddha gave women ordination anyway?

[Ensapa]

But in the end, the Buddha did give ordination to women.

Why would the ordination of women into monastics cause the Dharma to disappear 500 years earlier? What is the reason? Is there an explanation to this? And in your opinion, why did the Buddha gave women ordination anyway?

Oddly, he did not explain the reason why it would shorten the lifespan of the Dharma, but subsequently, more orthodox traditions such as Theravarda do not recognize the ordination of women until today. A little more that I found on wikipedia:

The tradition of the ordained monastic community (sangha) began with the Buddha, who established an order of Bhikkhus (monks).[1] According to the scriptures,[2] later, after an initial reluctance, he also established an order of Bhikkhunis (nuns or women monks). However, according to the scriptural account, not only did the Buddha lay down more rules of discipline for the bhikkhunis (311 compared to the bhikkhu's 227 in the Theravada version), he also made it more difficult for them to be ordained, and made them subordinate to monks.

[Midakpa]

It is said that after the Buddha's death, the Order charged Ananda with this offence, among others, of introducing women to the Order, and so causing its decay.

The following is Buddha's reply to Ananda after the latter announced that Mahapajapati had undertaken the eight important rules (Anguttara Nikaya, iv. 84):

"Ananda, if women had not been permitted to go forth from the home unto the homeless life under the Norm-Discipline set forth by the Tathagata, then would the righteous life last long, the Good Norm would last, Ananda, a thousand years. But now, Ananda, since  women have been permitted to go forth from the home unto the homeless life... not for long will the righteous life prevail; only for five hundred years, Ananda, will the Good Norm stand fast.

Just as, Ananda, whatsoever families have many women and few men are easily molested by robbers and pot-thieves, even so, Ananda, under whatsoever Norm-Discipline womenfolk get permission to wander forth from the home unto the homeless life, not for long does that righteous life prevail.

Just as, Ananda, when the blight called mildew falls upon a blooming paddy-field does not last long, even so, Ananda, under whatsoever Norm-Discipline womenfolk get permission to wander forth from the home unto the homeless life, not for long does that righteous life prevail.

Just as, Ananda, when the blight called red-rust falls upon a blooming field of sugar-cane, that field of sugar-cane does not last long, - even so, Ananda, under whatsoever Norm-Discipline... that righteous life does not last long.

Now just as, Ananda, a man cautiously build an embankment to a great waterwork, to prevent the water from flowing out, - even so, Ananda, have I cautiously proclaimed these Eight Important Rules, not to be broken as long as life shall last."

[Midakpa]

In the Anguttara Nikaya, it is reported that it was in Kapilavastu, in the Banyan Park, that Mahapajapati went to request the Buddha to accept her into the Order. She made the request three times and was rejected each time. Then, sad and in tears, she went away.

Then the Buddha set forth towards Vesali and stayed at the Great Grove, at the Hall of the Peaked Gable. Now, Mahapajapati got her hair cut donned the saffron robes and started off with a number of women of the Sakyan clan to Vesali and took her stand outside the porch, her feet swollen and dusty, sad, sorrowful, tearful and wailing.

Ananda asked her why she was in such a condition and she answered that it was because the Exalted One did not permit women to join the Order.

Ananda made the request again three times on Mahapajati's behalf and received the same reply from the Buddha. The Buddha said, "Enough, Ananda! Long not that women were permitted to do so."

Ananda thought of another method to make the Buddha grant permission. He asked a very poignant question:  "Lord, are women capable, after going forth from the home unto the homeless life under the Norm-Discipline set forth by the Tathagata, - are they capable of realizing the Fruit of Stream-winning, of Once-returning, of Never-returning, of Arhantship?"

The Buddha replied: "Women are capable... of doing so, Ananda."

Ananda then said, "Then, Lord, if women are capable... of doing so, inasmuch as Mahapajapati, the Gotamid, was of great service to the Exalted One, - for she was aunt, nourisher, and milk-giver, on the death of his mother she suckled the Exalted One, - well were it, Lord, if women were permitted to go forth from home unto the homeless life under the Norm-Discipline set forth by the Tathagata."

After this reasoning provided by Ananda, the Buddha had no choice but to agree to the request but he insisted that Mahapajapati undertake the eight important rules for her full ordination.

Thus it can be seen that Ananda's "method" worked. The Buddha could not deny that women were capable of gaining liberation and in order to repay Mahapajapati's kindness to him, he agreed to ordain her.

What I do not understand and would like to question is why Mahapajapati shaved her hair and donned the saffron robes even before the Buddha had agreed to ordain her? How did she know the Buddha would accept her into the order? But it showed a side of her character that is very strong and assertive, not unlike some women activists who fight for their human rights. She didn't give up the first time she was rejected. She actually followed the Buddha to Vesali!

[Midakpa]

The Buddha said that he would ordain Mahapajapati if she agreed to undertake and keep eight important rules. These rules are as follows:

1. A sister, even if she be an hundred years in the robes, shall salute, shall rise up before, shall bow down before, shall perform all duties of respect unto a brother, even if that brother have only just taken the robes. Let this rule never be broken, but be honoured, esteemed, reverenced, and observed as long as life doth last.

2. A sister shall not spend the rainy season in a district where there is no brother residing.

3. At the half-month let a sister await two things from the Order of Brethren, namely, the appointing of the Sabbath and the coming of a brother to preach the sermon.

4. At the end of keeping the rainy season let a sister, in presence of both Orders, of Brethren and Sisters, invite inquiry in respect of three things, namely, of things seen, heard, and suspected.

5. A sister guilty of serious wrong-doing shall do penance for the half-month to both Orders.

6. When a sister has passed two seasons in the practice of the Six Rules she may ask for full orders from both the Orders.

7. A sister shall not in any case abuse or censure a brother.

8. Henceforth is forbidden the right of a sister to have speech among brethren, but not forbidden is the speaking of brethren unto sisters. (Vinaya, ii. x)

[RedLantern]

The Sangha was not ready with competent teachers to handle a large crowd of women. This proved to be a reality later on when women were already accepted to the Sangha.Monks who could teach the nuns must be not only learned but also require an appropriate attitude to help uplift women spiritually.
The Buddha already received criticism from outsiders for breaking up families by ordaining either the husbands or wives.Their husbands had already joined the Order thus,this criticism is groundless.The Sakyas do not marry outside their clans.
The Buddha needed time to examine the pros and cons to their requests and made it clear that both men and women have equal potentiallty to achieve Enlightenment.Buddhism has transcended race,nation,caste and gender differences to declare the highest spiritual achievement transcends obstacles or discrimination of gender.