Interesting feedback about our website

[Ensapa]

I saw this comment on a website, and realize how ridiculous these people really are and how ignorant they truly are. It is a display of ignorance at its finest.

tenpel says:
July 11, 2012 at 9:22 pm
This goes too far for me.

Though I know that Zazep Rinpoche was a Shugden practitioner, others were too. I recognized that Zazep Rinpoche was explicitly mentioned as a guru of Rob before I posted the post above. So this decision was made being aware of this.

What this ShugdenSite claims or lists is not reliable either. So for instance they put Dagyab Kyabgön Rinpoche on their site as a great Shugden practitioner, as well as Lama Zopa Rinpoche and many others though they don’t practice Shugden. I know that a member of the board of directors of Dagyab Rinpoche’s charity trust asked the ShugdenSite to remove him from their website but they refused and ignored their wishes. One cannot take this site as a reliable source.

If someone wishes to express his or her gratitude to his or her teacher or states honestly the fact that a certain teacher is their teacher, even if that person practised or practices Shugden, there is nothing wrong with this and I think more tolerance would be required as well as accepting the Dalai Lama’s own words that it is ok if someone practices it personally or in private.

Moreover, I prefer to learn from available examples and to avoid the traps of hysteria. For instance, Geshe Thubten Jinpa, who has a PhD from Oxford University and who is a beloved translator of HH the Dalai Lama, writes in the preface of his PhD work (published by RoutledgeCurzon) “Self, Reality and Reason in Tibetan Philosophy: Tsongkhapa’s Quest for the Middle Way“, page x:

Inevitably, for a project such as the research and writing of this book, which has been in the making for a long period of time, I owe deep gratitude to many individuals and organisations. First and foremost, I would like to acknowledge my incalculable debt to my late teacher Kyabje Zemey Rinpoche whose life embodied perfect marriage of what the Tibetans recognise as the three principal qualities of a true spiritual teacher – one who is deeply learned, is ethically sound, and is genuinely kind and compassionate. It was with Rinpoche that I first read many of Tsongkhapa’s great philosophical classics. It is fitting, therefore, to dedicate this study to Rinpoche’s memory.

So when the Dalai Lama has no problem that Geshe Thubten Jinpa has so much devotion and gratitude to his main teacher, though the same teacher is the author of the Yellow Book and really offended the Dalai Lama by its publication, why should we be overly zealous and fishy?

http://thedorjeshugdengroup.wordpress.com/2012/07/06/devotion-with-discernment-a-question-of-personal-responsibility-by-rob-preece/

How would you know which lama is really a DS lama or not? do you have the clairvoyance to check? Oh my god, the nerve of some people these days. They talk so arrogantly as if they know everything that is going on. Is it necessary for lamas to tell you whether or not they are DS practitioners? If there is a fully qualified lama staying in your area and he happens to be a Dorje Shugden practitioner, and he does not intend to leave, and the Dalai Lama will never visit where you are and you will never go to Dharamsala, what is wrong with the whole thing then? Why do people make it a big deal these days? I honestly dont understand why do they call themselves Buddhist in the first place. The way he praised Thutben Jinpa sounds very blinded and biased.

Also, the author of the comment obviously cannot explain Guru devotion at all. Guru devotion is not having gratitude to the Guru. These people and their wrong views that they spread to others generate incredible amounts of negative karma for them everyday. I actually pity them a lot.

[thaimonk]

Well Ensapa, you can mention on their site, the names listed are of people who are practicing and did practice Shugden. Even if they did 'give up' their practice, they are in the group because they have practiced in the past. So this list is for both past and present practitioners.

The very fact they have practiced in the past could mean either the teachers were dumb and fooled by Shugden, or Shugden's practice is not harmful, but they were browbeaten into giving up due to political pressure from His Holiness the Dalai Lama and CTA?

 
Can you post this there Ensapa to clear things up for Tenpel and make them think more?

[WisdomBeing]

This is precisely the point i keep repeating ad nauseum. If these high lamas are highly attained, (and I believe they are, otherwise why call them high lamas??) then surely they would have known if Dorje Shugden was an evil spirit or not.

It IS that simple.

HH the Dalai Lama himself used to practice Dorje Shugden. Since he is Chenrezig, surely he would have known immediately that Dorje Shugden was evil and not ‘suddenly realise it’ much later. Every single great master in the list on this website has practised or is still practicing Dorje Shugden. If they stopped, it was because of respect for the Dalai Lama’s instructions, as Lama Zopa has clearly stated (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=2366.0), and not because of any belief that Dorje Shugden is evil.

[Ensapa]

I have posted the said reply from thaimonk on that website, but it seems to be awaiting moderation. It would make sense that there should be an appropriate reply on that website as there are many people who read it and we should clarify things up. That website itself seems to talk mostly on controversial buddhist topics and is dedicated to news of that nature, but at the same time, it is also interesting to see how little some people know about Dorje Shugden, the nature of the controversy and what does it mean when they chose to be Gelug.

As there is a high chance for the comment to be not approved by the moderation as the website thrives on controversies and scandals, I will repost my reply here:

Saraha says:
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
July 28, 2012 at 2:29 am
“What this ShugdenSite claims or lists is not reliable either. So for instance they put Dagyab Kyabgön Rinpoche on their site as a great Shugden practitioner, as well as Lama Zopa Rinpoche and many others though they don’t practice Shugden. I know that a member of the board of directors of Dagyab Rinpoche’s charity trust asked the ShugdenSite to remove him from their website but they refused and ignored their wishes. One cannot take this site as a reliable source.”

The very fact they have practiced in the past could mean either the teachers were dumb and fooled by Shugden, or Shugden’s practice is not harmful, but they were browbeaten into giving up due to political pressure from His Holiness the Dalai Lama and CTA. So i’d say that the information from the site is still reliable, because there is no way we can tell if the Lama is telling others they are not practicing publicly but are doing so privately.

It is more like these people need a way to reconcile between respecting the Lamas and the ban. They dont seem to want to believe or know that the lamas that they held in such high esteem to be Dorje Shugden practitioners even though in reality they are. They also think that people who are students of Lamas who practice Dorje Shudgen are unreliable. But that would also mean the Dalai Lama and FPMT but they chose to not see that. It can be quite amusing to see how people deceive themselves sometimes.

[DharmaSpace]

Most of them are in denial of what has transpired. It was Lama Yeshe a great dorje shugden practitioner that made FPMT to the level it is now. It was the gentle Lama Yeshe who reached out to the westerners and open door for western minds to receive Lama Tsongkhapa's teachings.

So if our teachers are incorrect why are we doing prayers in front of our previous teachers?
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/?p=18491

FPMT people if you are on this forum do reply. What is Lama Zopa doing in front of one the greatest Dorje Shugden practitioner of all times, Trijang Dorjechang the charioteer of Buddha Shakyamuni.

[DharmaDefender]

DS your right about the denial and its sad because its what has got them into trouble in the first place. I find it disturbing that so many will give up their practices for the sake of being on the right or correct side. Your right now, but how long for? And how does giving up your lamas practices create any basis for attainments in your practice, if the foundation for tantric attainments is keeping the pure vows and COMMITMENTS?

Its really simple for me - course the Board will never admit that Dagyab Kyabgön Rinpoche practises. Why would they admit such a thing to someone who clearly goes on forums and talks about all manner of things when their not happy with their lot or what they know?

[Ensapa]

DS your right about the denial and its sad because its what has got them into trouble in the first place. I find it disturbing that so many will give up their practices for the sake of being on the right or correct side. Your right now, but how long for? And how does giving up your lamas practices create any basis for attainments in your practice, if the foundation for tantric attainments is keeping the pure vows and COMMITMENTS?
It is samsara after all. Many people are not taught the refuge vows properly or the root texts such as 50verses of Guru devotion properly, or that they were but they choose to ignore those teachings with the thinking that the shortcut to attainments and enlightenment is to follow the most famous lama around.

Its really simple for me - course the Board will never admit that Dagyab Kyabgön Rinpoche practises. Why would they admit such a thing to someone who clearly goes on forums and talks about all manner of things when their not happy with their lot or what they know?
The other question is, why would they want to admit it even if they knew? It's bad PR after all. Also, the board of directors is not always the closest to the Lama, so how would they know whether or not the Lama practices it? I wonder why are people so shallow and presumptuous these days? Is it because they are too afraid to be on the "wrong" side of the fence? how sad in more ways than one.

Dont you just love how people like to assume these days, and how shallow they are and unable to read between the lines? And oh, Tempel has a reply for all of us:

tenpel says:
July 28, 2012 at 9:46 am
Sorry, but you are spinning the facts.

It was up to the individual to decide if they continue to practice Shugden or not. Most of the Lamas stopped and it is misleading of the ShugdenSite to claim they would be great Shugden practitioners because most of them don’t practice Shugden any more. To claim something which does not meet reality is not reliable but unreliable.

The ShugdenSite people also seem to lack any respect. On the one hand they call those lamas great and on the other hand they do not even pay heed to their requests to be removed from this website.

What ever it meant that they practised Shugden in the past, I think it was better to give it up. Look just what happened to the strongest proponents of Shugden Pabongkha and Kelsang Gyatso, they became fanatics and infused sectarianism in their students. (That both are fanatics is said even by scientists.) With sectarianism your spiritual path comes to an halt. http://quietmountain.org/links/teachings/nonsect.htm

And he also made a dud account, or it happens to be someone who is bitter about NKT:

an old friend says:
July 28, 2012 at 4:02 pm
I think of it like this. I used to drink alcohol regularly because it was the norm.Then some people wiser than myself said that, in their experience, it was damaging for my health so I gave it up. Now that I have given it up, you wouldnt refer to me as an alcoholic: after all, I dont drink. NKT continuing to refer to these lamas as great Shugdenpas is like referring to someone who doesnt drink as an alcoholic.Shurely shome mishtake???

Does anyone want to come up with an answer to these two dumb analogies?

[Ensapa]

Since no one replied, I replied to the guy. He sounds like a typical Dalai Lama groupie to me, and may not even be Gelug to start with as he criticised Pabongkha Rinpoche. I wrote a very logical rebuttal to him on the whole matter. I wonder how would he reply to my statement?

Saraha says:
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
July 30, 2012 at 5:39 am
The other thing is whether or not those lamas are actually practicing Dorje Shugden at all, is none of our business, and I do not think that they would put it up on that side if there was no evidence of them doing so. Why did they not serve the site with a defamation lawsuit if they did not comply, unless of course the lamas in question are practising but in private, and they cannot deny that. I dont think that damages the reliability of the shugdensite, but rather, yours, because you do sound like you seem to know for sure what these Lamas practice in private. They could very well be doing Dorje Shugden pujas in their Ladrangs and only their close assistants know about it, but they tell people they dont to comply with the Dalai Lama’s wishes. Perhaps the site has very strong connections to these lamas and they have inside information.

Pabongkha did not become a fanatic, and the rumor that he destroyed Guru Rinpoche statues has been proven as a rumor cooked up by jealous people to discredit him as the rumor lacks many details, such as the names of the monasteries that were involved, names of disciples, dates and so on. Even Kalu Rinpoche said he heard that as a rumor and there is no solid facts to back up on it. FYI, Pabongkha spoke very highly of Guru Rinpoche, and he respected all the other traditions equally, but not partake in their teachings. He has narrated the life story of Guru Rinpoche several times. If he was sectarian and fanatical, would he do that? I dont think that’s sectarian. What is sectarian is to criticise the unique protector of a certain lineage without investigation in its history.

what is really sectarian is criticising a tradition that is not your own, and blindly without evidence to support.

Also, by dissing Pabongka Rinpoche, you are effectively saying that all Gelug lamas of this generation are fanatics as ALL the Gelug lamas of our current generation are indirect disciples of Pabongkha. Even the Dalai Lama would not go that far to say that Pabongkha is fanatical or sectarian, so why are you not following the Dalai Lama’s viewpoint?

What happened to Pabongkha? the 3rd Pabongkha Choktrul is back, and he is in Nepal and there are sightings of a red lady (Vajrayogini) repairing his roof from monks of Sera monastery, near his ladrang. If he worshipped a ghost, can his reincarnation return? logic time. If Pabongkha Rinpoche is as bad as you claim him to be, why would this happen to him? I would choose to listen to Pabongkha as even Vajrayogini herself visits him, but does she visit you?

Even the Dalai Lama would always tell people to check properly every time he talks about Dorje Shugden and I’ve done my homework. I’m following the Dalai Lama’s advice to check my facts without bias, have you?

There are stories of how other lamas of Pabongkha's generation were jealous of his attainments and cooked up many nasty rumours about him, many of them did not survive the turn of the century but one did, which is him destroying the statues of Guru Rinpoche of various monasteries. However, even Kalu Rinpoche who publicised this rumor in his biography has made it clear that it was just a rumor that he heard from others as nobody who quotes this can tell more details about which monastery was involved or the statues went into which river. But people seem to lap it up and take it as the truth even when there is no proof or whatsoever. It would nice tho, if more people would actually go in and support my arguments against this person which will help strengthen my points. We do have enough facts to blow away their insubstancial accusations anyway.