Lama Zopa's wisdom.

[vajratruth]

Lama Zopa is today one of the most recognized and well respected Tibetan Lamas and is also known to be very close to His Holiness The Dalai Lama. In fact the 14th Dalai Lama is one of Lama Zopa's teachers. Other Masters who have imparted their holy knowledge to Lama Zopa read like the Who is Who of Tibetan Buddhism:



His Holiness the Dalai Lama's high regard for Lama Zopa is easily seen in one of HHDL's speeches where he described Lama Zopa as follows:

"Rinpoche [Zopa] is someone who follows my guidance sincerely, ?very expansively and with one hundred percent trust. ?He possesses unwavering faith and pure samaya; ?not only has he pure samaya and faith,?but whatever I instruct, Zopa Rinpoche has the capability to accomplish it. ?So whatever dedications Lama Zopa Rinpoche makes, ?I also pray to accomplish this and you should do the same thing. "?
His Holiness the Dalai Lama (Sarnath, India, Dec 19 -22nd)

Such was Lama Zopa's dedication to the Dalai Lama that when he was instructed to stop practicing Dorje Shugden, he did. But Lama Zopa, perhaps bound by the vows of always speaking the truth went on record to say this about Dorje Shugden:

"This was done for His Holiness (The Dalai Lama). This does not mean that Pabongka Dechen Nyingpo, His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche, and His Holiness Song Rinpoche have made mistakes. It does not mean they are wrong. Nor does one have to look at the protector as evil. For us ordinary people it is difficult to judge, because we cannot see these lamas ’ minds. Another side of the teaching is that it is mentioned that the protector (Dorje Shugden) is an Arya Bodhisattva, a manifestation of Manjushri. So, then, there is also the risk of our creating very heavy karma in that context (by criticizing or abandoning this practice) (Source: Lama Zopa, Practice Advice : Dorje Shugden, Lama Zopa Rinpoche's Online Advice Book, retrieved 2009-02-12)

Here is a Buddhist master who in squarely in the Dalai Lama's camp when it comes to the Shugden issue and yet, Lama Zopa states in no uncertain terms that his decision to stop propitiating Dorje Shugden was done in obedience to his Guru the Dalai Lama, whose reason the ordinary mind cannot comprehend. For sure it is not because Dorje Shugden is an evil spirit.

 For Lama Zopa to follow, there is definitely be a bigger picture that these Bodhisattvas such as the Dalai Lama and Lama Zopa are prepared to "risk...the creating of very heavy karma". We are not to simply follow because Lama Zopa has also said that Dorje Shugden is an Arya Boddhisattva  and none other than the manifestation of Manjushri. Can it more clearer than that?

[thaimonk]

What is the point of this post? 

[michaela]

I found this post to be very interesting due to the following reason:

•   Some of Lama Zopa’s teachers are well known DS practitioners such as HH Zong Rinpoche, HH Trijang Rinpoche, HH Ling Rinpoche, etc.  Why does he opted to follow HHDL and not the other Gurus who have given him DS initiation.  None of the record specify that any of these teachers given him permission to stop practicing DS.  Can one follow one guru and defy the other?  Is that what HHDL mean by pure samaya? 

I do not say that one has to practice DS and non DS practitioners are bad.  But once you receive DS initiation you need to be true to your practice.  Every time I read Lama Zopa’s statement on DS, he has been threading a fine diplomatic line.  On one side avoiding to confirm that DS is a spirit and on the other advising people to follow HHDL advice.

None of his statement is very clear and at times confusing.

[Ensapa]

I found this post to be very interesting due to the following reason:

•   Some of Lama Zopa’s teachers are well known DS practitioners such as HH Zong Rinpoche, HH Trijang Rinpoche, HH Ling Rinpoche, etc.  Why does he opted to follow HHDL and not the other Gurus who have given him DS initiation.  None of the record specify that any of these teachers given him permission to stop practicing DS.  Can one follow one guru and defy the other?  Is that what HHDL mean by pure samaya? 
Obviously not. There is no way the second Guru can override what the 1st Guru has taught or has established. If that was possible, it would mean that people can gain attainments from switching Gurus whenever they feel like it. This is obviously not true. HHDL's request must be followed because he does benefit more people, but the line is drawn when it comes to Guru samaya. He still cannot override the instructions of anyone's teacher.

I do not say that one has to practice DS and non DS practitioners are bad.  But once you receive DS initiation you need to be true to your practice.  Every time I read Lama Zopa’s statement on DS, he has been threading a fine diplomatic line.  On one side avoiding to confirm that DS is a spirit and on the other advising people to follow HHDL advice.
Yes. He is treading in between holding his samaya and complying with the Dalai Lama's commandment. He has to comply with the Dalai Lama because the Dalai Lama is one of his Gurus and also to not disturb the minds of the many people who has faith in the Dalai Lama. At the same time he did not tell anyone to start a crusade against Dorje Shugden.
None of his statement is very clear and at times confusing.

I dont think so it is confusing, it is just careful when he is wedged in between the Dalai Lama and following the lineage of his Gurus. It is quite obvious that he keeps his Dorje Shugden practice private and only his close circle of disciples know, they just dont talk about it. I do find it funny to an extent to see people trying to reconcile with Lama Zopa being a "pure" lama by denying the history of Kopan, Lama Yeshe and FPMT. No wonder Lama Osel refuses to return, Lama Yeshe manifesting a stroke and FPMT centers around the world are not growing.

[Tammy]

  

This post read like a mini essa, easy to read, informative but, like thaimonk kindly pointed out - what's the point ??

Anyway, I like the part when it said Lama Zopa followed his Guru (HHDL)'s instruction to cease his practice of Dorje Shugden. However he made it very clear that he did this because it was his Guru's order. But he did not criticize Dorje Shugden. To me, this is what a true Buddhist should be, keep our samara clean but do not criticize or put down other practitioners' practise and marginalize them based on their choice.

[vajratruth]

What is the point of this post? 

Thaimonk, the objective of this post is to highlight a few points:

(i) Even Lama Zopa who is on the Dalai Lama's side when it comes to the Shugden issue, apparently does not agree with the Dalai Lama's public reasons for banning Dorje Shugden. Lama Zopa does not regard Dorje Shugden as an evil spirit. To the Dalai Lama's claim that his Gurus were wrong about Dorje Shugden

The Dalai Lama says his Gurus are WRONG	Small | Large

Lama Zopa states very clearly here that "This does not mean that Pabongka Dechen Nyingpo, His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche, and His Holiness Song Rinpoche have made mistakes. It does not mean they are wrong" referring to their practice of Dorje Shugden;

(ii) Lama Zopa has studied under many highly attained Masters and would be in the know when it comes to who Dorje Shugden really is. Lama Zopa is not a novice who may not know how to discern the truth from propaganda;

(iii) Why then did Lama Zopa decide to publicly give up the practice (we do not know if he is still practicing DS in private)? It was for the Dalai Lama who has a bigger purpose in calling for the ban, and for Lama Zopa to go along with it, it would have to be a purpose that would benefit many in the long run.

None of the anti-Shugden Lamas have ever come out with concrete reasons for the ban and it would be foolish for us to follow blindly because we attract very bad karma by criticizing a Buddha and abandoning a practice given by our Guru.

The Dalai Lama has a plan and to execute it His Holiness has very much compromised his own reputation (I say nothing about his karma because a Buddha is no longer bound by the clutches of karma). Self sacrifice is very much part of the Boddhisattva way.

To those who have abandoned the practice and condemned Dorje Shugden purely based on the Dalai Lama's say so, without checking to see the Dalai Lama's reasons are sound, take heed.

[Ensapa]

What is the point of this post? 

Thaimonk, the objective of this post is to highlight a few points:

(i) Even Lama Zopa who is on the Dalai Lama's side when it comes to the Shugden issue, apparently does not agree with the Dalai Lama's public reasons for banning Dorje Shugden. Lama Zopa does not regard Dorje Shugden as an evil spirit. To the Dalai Lama's claim that his Gurus were wrong about Dorje Shugden The Dalai Lama says his Gurus are WRONG

Lama Zopa states very clearly here that "This does not mean that Pabongka Dechen Nyingpo, His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche, and His Holiness Song Rinpoche have made mistakes. It does not mean they are wrong" referring to their practice of Dorje Shugden;
Interestingly, the Dalai Lama has stated that it is possible to make mistakes and stated that although Pabongkha Rinpoche and Trijang Rinpoche are unparalleled masters, they have made mistakes with Dorje Shugden. He further cites an example:

"Therefore, Arya Vimuktisena, whose teacher was Vasubhandu, saw that Vasubhandu's manner of explanation of the Abhisamayalankara had been more affected by his own personal bias towards a particular position than being a true reflection of the author's ultimate intent. He therefore composed a commentary refuting that view, displacing it with a Madhyamaka interpretation. Now was this a case of a corruption of the spiritual guide - disciple relationship on Arya Vimuktisena's part or of him showing disrespect for Vasubhandu? It was neither of these things.
"

but its rather interesting that Lama Zopa would not use this viewpoint as an excuse but rather stick to the traditional way of Guru devotion.

(ii) Lama Zopa has studied under many highly attained Masters and would be in the know when it comes to who Dorje Shugden really is. Lama Zopa is not a novice who may not know how to discern the truth from propaganda;
He is a very well attained master in his own right and therefore, he does not need approval from anyone. His Dharma works and teachings itself is a good indicator of his level of attainments.

(iii) Why then did Lama Zopa decide to publicly give up the practice (we do not know if he is still practicing DS in private)? It was for the Dalai Lama who has a bigger purpose in calling for the ban, and for Lama Zopa to go along with it, it would have to be a purpose that would benefit many in the long run.
He has made it very clear that he is doing this for the Dalai Lama's sake but at the same time he is not going against his own Gurus by declaring that Dorje Shugden is evil.

None of the anti-Shugden Lamas have ever come out with concrete reasons for the ban and it would be foolish for us to follow blindly because we attract very bad karma by criticizing a Buddha and abandoning a practice given by our Guru.
None of the Gelug lamas have spoken up against Dorje Shugden, but non Gelug lamas do speak out against him all the time and with full fire and brimstone. There is a pattern here, and for Gelug practitioners to go against Dorje Shugden full force, they are breaking samaya.

The Dalai Lama has a plan and to execute it His Holiness has very much compromised his own reputation (I say nothing about his karma because a Buddha is no longer bound by the clutches of karma). Self sacrifice is very much part of the Boddhisattva way.

To those who have abandoned the practice and condemned Dorje Shugden purely based on the Dalai Lama's say so, without checking to see the Dalai Lama's reasons are sound, take heed.
They will always think they did the right thing, until 4 years later when the ban is lifted, then they will realize how foolish they are when they could have just kept quiet and mind their own business.

I like how you angle the whole thing, but sorry to say, this topic has been talked about in this forum for quite a bit. There are many threads on this topic to date, and perhaps, thaimonk is saying there's no point to bring this point up again.

[Zach]

Lama Zopa's explanation is very good and his students should follow his example by not criticizing the protector, Lama's, or general practitioners of this deity. Being of the same lineage if they say the protector is an evil spirit they defame their lineage guru's so how do they expect to receive blessings in order to complete the path they won't if they perform actions such as these its very simple, Lama Zopa obviously wants to keep a good relationship with the Tibetan establishment and HHDL in particular because in the future things will not always be as they are now.

[DharmaSpace]

Perhaps Lama Zopa is truly compassionate he knows 99.9 percentile of high monks were Dorje Shugden practitioners, so he knew most lamas would not stand for not following their lamas advice. Then he created the space for the people who must absolutely abandon the practice due to Dalai Lama's message or their lack of understanding of what is truly happening, so these people still has place to practice. Or for the new people who have not done dorje shugden practice a place where they can progress and learn without worrying about the ban and conspiracies surrounding it.

[dsiluvu]

Yes this is definitely an interesting post! It is obvious that many of Lama Zopa's Gurus were all Dorje Shugden practitioners like His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche. So why does Lama Zopa listen to the instruction of HHDL and not the rest of His other Gurus whom he got the initiation from?

What most interesting is that he made a clear statement to say it DOES NOT mean all the rest of the Guru's who practice Dorje Shugden are wrong and that Dorje Shugden is clearly is an Arya Bodhisattva, a manifestation of Manjushri. So, then, there is also the risk of our creating very heavy karma in that context

So I can only guess and conclude that Lama Zopa's Guru would have advice Lama Zopa to follow what His Holiness says for now as in the case with Samdhong Rinpoche who was the PM of TGIE and who appeared to us a a "bad" guy and anti Shugden and then later surprised us with the fact that He is just following His Gurur's advice - Trijang Rinpoche.

Likewise Lama Zopa said: For us ordinary people it is difficult to judge, because we cannot see these lamas’ minds. Hence we do not know, so best not to judge... hopefully the students of Lama Zopa all around the world (FPMT) would take this advice to heart as well.

[Ensapa]

Yes this is definitely an interesting post! It is obvious that many of Lama Zopa's Gurus were all Dorje Shugden practitioners like His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche. So why does Lama Zopa listen to the instruction of HHDL and not the rest of His other Gurus whom he got the initiation from?
If anyone has not noticed yet, his position on Guru devotion differs greatly from the Dalai Lama's view that it is okay for Gurus to make mistakes, we can accept certain "correct" teachings from them and ignore and drop the "incorrect" ones. Lama Zopa did not say that this approach was wrong, but he said that Gurus like Pabongkha Rinpoche and Trijang Rinpoche will never make any mistakes, which contradicts this statement almost completely.

What most interesting is that he made a clear statement to say it DOES NOT mean all the rest of the Guru's who practice Dorje Shugden are wrong and that Dorje Shugden is clearly is an Arya Bodhisattva, a manifestation of Manjushri. So, then, there is also the risk of our creating very heavy karma in that context
Lama Zopa skilfully slipped that in between all his talk about following the Dalai Lama's instructions. He mentioned to not despise Dorje Shugden or his followers because what happens if Dorje Shugden happens to be a Bodhisattva or Manjushri? then we will incur heavy negative karma. But alas, most of his disciples do not pay heed and...the rest is what we know today about the whole fiasco with Dorje Shugden in their centers.

So I can only guess and conclude that Lama Zopa's Guru would have advice Lama Zopa to follow what His Holiness says for now as in the case with Samdhong Rinpoche who was the PM of TGIE and who appeared to us a a "bad" guy and anti Shugden and then later surprised us with the fact that He is just following His Gurur's advice - Trijang Rinpoche.
Lama Zopa has to comply with the Dalai Lama's wishes, but at the same time he did not ask his students to go overboard with the whole Dorje Shugden thing. I still think that he is a DS lama, despite what people would like to believe otherwise. Although I do feel that since FPMT is big enough for Lama Zopa to speak up against the ban, it would go against Trijang Rinpoche's direct instructions to support the Dalai Lama despite the ban, and harm the minds of Dalai Lama's followers who are also part of FPMT, which is why he chose not to do so.

Likewise Lama Zopa said: For us ordinary people it is difficult to judge, because we cannot see these lamas’ minds. Hence we do not know, so best not to judge... hopefully the students of Lama Zopa all around the world (FPMT) would take this advice to heart as well.
If they did, then Lama Zopa would not have the stroke that he suffered from. If they did, FPMT centers would have actually grown and not remain stagnant at their current state, with very little activity and they would have been able to produce great Buddhist masters. None of these are happening because the members are just too busy policing the other Buddhists and making sure that the "illegal" Buddhists are demonised and publicised.

No matter how you want to see it, Lama Zopa is just following Trijang Rinpoche's advice and is not "evil" at all. It is only that his students choose to be anti Dorje Shugden and become self appointed crusaders against their Lama's wishes, but Lama Zopa cannot openly speak up against this problem as CTA will see it as him being a pro Dorje Shugden practitioner. What I have heard is, at centers where the president is actively involved in politics and somehow dragged the resident geshe into the whole scene, Lama Zopa personally visits the center on the pretense of giving a teaching and removes the Geshe and president from the said center. I have heard this happening in a friend's country so it is rather sad to see what they make their Guru do to stop the politics.