Silence over Dorje Shugden

[Ensapa]

I actually find it amusing that many forums such as esangha in the past, and now Dharmawheel, forbid the discussion of Dorje Shugden topics on their forums. Why? because they are going against something that they dont even really know why. When people ask questions, they do not know how to handle or debate because they lack the information. Why do they lack the information to debate and debunk something? Because they are doing it out of pure blind faith. Blind faith is when something because someone said so and it lacks backing or any logical explanation behind it. The mods there are actually afraid to allow discussions about Dorje Shugden when there is so much to talk about and that there is so much everyone can learn. If they really believed that Dorje Shugden was bad, then they should have a lot of backing information behind it and they should be able to tell people why and how it is bad as opposed to silencing people from talking about him. Of course, it should be discussed in the Gelug section because other traditions do hate Dorje Shugden, but my question is, why dont allow?

If you dont have the basis for something, naturally you would not want to talk about it. The behaviour of such people are exactly like how the Church deals with people who challenge their beliefs such as Galeo who pointed out that the earth was not flat. If they really believe that Dorje Shugden is wrong, they should come out with solid evidence that cannot be debunked or challenged, and they should not be afraid of people coming in and talk about him because they have a basis. By disallowing topics on Dorje Shugden, they just give him more publicity and at the same time display their lack of ignorance. If they were firm, they would allow it and they can refute everything without batting an eye. makes sense?

This is what I think anyway. I wonder if anyone is on the same page as me?

[Dorje Pakmo]

Dear Ensapa,
the reasons that they don’t allow people to talk about Dorje Shugden in their forums is because,
they are being challenged each time a Dorje Shugden supporter comes in and talk about,
How great is Dorje Shugden.
How Dorje Shugden helped and benefited so many people.
Why is such a powerful and compassionate protector being banned by HHDL?
Why everyone who supports HHDL should support the ban?

And to answer all these, they need facts that they really… do not have. This is because HHDL himself is contradicting his own word.
Watch this video

http://youtu.be/puWgomFs-54
	Small | Large

So, the easiest way is to say, in support to HHDL, we do not allow such topics on our forum (I don’t think they will even give a reason) and ban people who talks about Dorje Shugden from going into the forum.
YES! You are right Ensapa. By disallowing topics on Dorje Shugden, they just give Dorje Shugden more publicity and at the same time display their ignorance.
But there is no way for them to be firm and to allow people to talk about Dorje Shugden, because there was no concrete reason for the ban to begin with. The ban contradicts so many things about tolerance, the Buddhist way, the lineage masters, etc etc… and it also did one very important thing, for every action, there is a reaction. It publicized Dorje Shugden the uncommon protector so much more and due to this ban, more and more people are asking questions and seeking for true answers, rather than to just stay quiet and blindly BELIEVE.

[Galen]

True that they are doing it out of blind faith because they do not really know the truth. Also they do not want to offend the Dalai Lama. As you know, if they offend the Dalai Lama or speak up against the practice of Dorje Shugden, they may be dispelled or black listed. Just like how Trijang Rinpoche lost his monastery in Dharamsala, and the Changsul has to return to Shar Gaden. It is very much easier to go with the flow than to stand in the tide where everything is against you.

Keeping quiet only makes people want to know more. The silence is deafening!! The forums should open to all to discuss all topics. Then, they are true representation of the Dharma as Dharma does not discriminate. The way they are behaving are like how the CTA is treating its citizens. Freedom of religion is for all and so it freedom of speech!

[WisdomBeing]

What I find rather illogical is that the banning of even the discussion of Dorje Shugden is so narrow minded! Why not allow discussion?

In Catholic forums such as http://www.catholicforum.com/forums/forum.php?s=940a71950ae8aa52e92615af71cc1033

They have a Debate area, where they state:

Debate Forums

Please note that opinions expressed in the Debate forums may differ from authentic Catholic teaching. These forums are provided for free exchange of ideas and debate; please visit our non-debate forums when searching for orthodox Catholic doctrine. Responses are geared around Church teachings, disciplines and actions, not around secular (i.e., political) values. Challenges are to be addressed in a properly stated question or thesis. All inputs require charitable interaction! Proselytizing is NOT debate!

Or http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=forum&f=9 which at a glance, does not prohibit any particular discussion, though it does say no profanity and blasphemy. Dorje Shugden may be considered blasphemy by Buddhists, I guess.  But my point is that Catholicism which is very traditional, gives a broad platform in their forums for discussion of things the Pope has forbidden, such as abortion, divorce, homosexuality. Why not Buddhist forums allow discussion on Dorje Shugden?

The Dalai Lama is the spiritual head of Tibetan Buddhism but the Buddhist forums are also for other non-Tibetan schools of Buddhism, which do not subscribe to the Dalai Lama as their spiritual head. So why restrict everyone from discussing something that the Dalai Lama alone decreed?

In Buddhism, especially Tibetan Buddhism, debate is encouraged and is a core practice in the monastic institutions. Yet, ever since the Dalai Lama decreed that Dorje Shugden should not be practised, there is zero debate allowed, let alone discussion. Even when Kundeling Rinpoche requested to have a discussion with the Dalai Lama on this issue, he was rejected.

The only logical reason could be because there is NO justification for the ban. On this website, there have been many refutations of accusations made towards Dorje Shugden and his practice. It is so easy and logical to counter them! Yet, nothing is shifting… yet. I do believe that logic will prevail eventually, and if all of us Dorje Shugden practitioners continue to share our knowledge in a logical, objective way, people will eventually see the logic. Even if they do not practice Dorje Shugden, at least they will understand how Dorje Shugden practitioners are oppressed.

When we use logic rather than being emotional and attacking the Dalai Lama on a personal level, people will find it easier to empathise with our situation.

Actually, come to think of it, I think that the reason why Dorje Shugden is banned in the Buddhist forums is because of the behaviour of both sides of the debate – both pro and anti-DS people were very personal, very derogatory, sometimes vicious and very unbuddhist. So since these two parties appear to be unable to have a decent conversation together, they banned the topic. Unlike here, where the discussions are pretty decent and peaceful and where it is about the only popular place where we can discuss DS issues. I saw 33 guests online earlier and 4 registered users. It’s great that there is a substantial base of lurkers but I wish they would come on and talk.

[hope rainbow]

THE ABUSE OF CARROTS!

Actually, come to think of it, I think that the reason why Dorje Shugden is banned in the Buddhist forums is because of the behaviour of both sides of the debate – both pro and anti-DS people were very personal, very derogatory, sometimes vicious and very unbuddhist.
So since these two parties appear to be unable to have a decent conversation together, they banned the topic.
Unlike here, where the discussions are pretty decent and peaceful and where it is about the only popular place where we can discuss DS issues.

I do think that this is most true.
Yet, a forum is a very good place to make a point and make one self heard, IF DORJE SHUGDEN WAS SO DANGEROUS THEN WHY IS THERE NO DEBATE ON THE FORUM THAT EXPLAIN THIS AND MAKE SURE LESS AND LESS PEOPLE RELY ON DORJE SHUGDEN?

Why if not because they can't win a debate....

Let's imagine this: a forum about drugs but it is not allowed to speak about heroin?
Heroin use is destructive, and a debate over this is easily won.

Or let's imagine this differently: a forum about drugs led by a worldly acclaimed drug specialist who dictated that carrot is an hallucinating drug and must be banned, and on the forum we can talk about everything but not the ban on carrots.
Who would win the debate over the abuse of carrots and its destructive effect on society?

LOL!

[Zach]

Dharmawheel much like E-sangha says they have banned discussion about it but critical and breathtakingly Ignorant comments still manage to filter through. Saying they have banned discussion actually means they have banned people defending the position because of all the hatred it induces from so called practicing Buddhists. E-sangha version 2 is just a matter of time again before it implodes under the weight of negative karma.

 

[vajratruth]

The Shugden affair is probably the biggest religious controversy in the world of Buddhism today and by not opening discussions on this subject matter, it shows that these people have something to hide. These sites are like the only Sports Chanels on TV that don't feature the Olympics that is taking place now. I am sure if the anti-Shugden people have solid facts to backup their belief they would be making a loud noise about it.

But come to think about it, what can a Buddhist forum which is anti--Shugden say about the matter other than parrot the words of the Dalai Lama? The reality is that there is no religious basis for the ban and the reasons given for the ban are so wafer thin that anyone who cares to investigate only a bit further, will see through them as absolute fraudulent propositions.

If those forums were to allow discussions on DS, those who know real facts about Dorje Shugden can so easily participate and literally tear them to shreds. It is too risky for them which is sad because the whole entire about having forums is for people to engage in discussions so that learning can take place.

Too bad.

[Ensapa]

What I find rather illogical is that the banning of even the discussion of Dorje Shugden is so narrow minded! Why not allow discussion?

In Catholic forums such as http://www.catholicforum.com/forums/forum.php?s=940a71950ae8aa52e92615af71cc1033

They have a Debate area, where they state:

Debate Forums

Please note that opinions expressed in the Debate forums may differ from authentic Catholic teaching. These forums are provided for free exchange of ideas and debate; please visit our non-debate forums when searching for orthodox Catholic doctrine. Responses are geared around Church teachings, disciplines and actions, not around secular (i.e., political) values. Challenges are to be addressed in a properly stated question or thesis. All inputs require charitable interaction! Proselytizing is NOT debate!

Or http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=forum&f=9 which at a glance, does not prohibit any particular discussion, though it does say no profanity and blasphemy. Dorje Shugden may be considered blasphemy by Buddhists, I guess.  But my point is that Catholicism which is very traditional, gives a broad platform in their forums for discussion of things the Pope has forbidden, such as abortion, divorce, homosexuality. Why not Buddhist forums allow discussion on Dorje Shugden?

The Dalai Lama is the spiritual head of Tibetan Buddhism but the Buddhist forums are also for other non-Tibetan schools of Buddhism, which do not subscribe to the Dalai Lama as their spiritual head. So why restrict everyone from discussing something that the Dalai Lama alone decreed?

In Buddhism, especially Tibetan Buddhism, debate is encouraged and is a core practice in the monastic institutions. Yet, ever since the Dalai Lama decreed that Dorje Shugden should not be practised, there is zero debate allowed, let alone discussion. Even when Kundeling Rinpoche requested to have a discussion with the Dalai Lama on this issue, he was rejected.
If the Dalai Lama did it, he must have his reasons for doing so, but if it is us wannabes who want to do it, i doubt that we actually have the wisdom to actually see the real reason behind the ban and shut it off. in other words, our level is completely different from HHDL's level. Perhaps HHDL is just testing out people to see they will see the irony of it all.

The only logical reason could be because there is NO justification for the ban. On this website, there have been many refutations of accusations made towards Dorje Shugden and his practice. It is so easy and logical to counter them! Yet, nothing is shifting… yet. I do believe that logic will prevail eventually, and if all of us Dorje Shugden practitioners continue to share our knowledge in a logical, objective way, people will eventually see the logic. Even if they do not practice Dorje Shugden, at least they will understand how Dorje Shugden practitioners are oppressed.
Yes. This is what I feel too!

When we use logic rather than being emotional and attacking the Dalai Lama on a personal level, people will find it easier to empathise with our situation.
Touche!

Actually, come to think of it, I think that the reason why Dorje Shugden is banned in the Buddhist forums is because of the behaviour of both sides of the debate – both pro and anti-DS people were very personal, very derogatory, sometimes vicious and very unbuddhist. So since these two parties appear to be unable to have a decent conversation together, they banned the topic. Unlike here, where the discussions are pretty decent and peaceful and where it is about the only popular place where we can discuss DS issues. I saw 33 guests online earlier and 4 registered users. It’s great that there is a substantial base of lurkers but I wish they would come on and talk.
You know, what is funny is that Trijang Rinpoche has said before that those who speak in favor of the Dalai Lama and go against Dorje Shugden, or, speak in favor of Dorje Shugden but go against the Dalai Lama are both equally wrong, so the forums would just be a showcase that would prove both sides being ridiculous and going against Trijang Rinpoche's instructions. A skilful moderator could always redirect the debate -- like here. But why does nobody do it? I wonder why? It wont be that hard to ban anyone who talks bad about the Dalai Lama or any Dorje Shugden lamas, would it? But why not?

There are a lot of people who are interested in Dorje Shugden. They do want to learn more and they do want to find out for themselves if it is good or bad. Even if there are many people today who believe in the Dalai Lama without much investigations, there are still people who want a second opinion of things and they do want to know what is going on. This forum has a lot of information, so it will take time for them to read, learn and digest, and when they have questions, they will post eventually.

Arguments or not, I still do not see why there is no reason for forums to disallow discussion on him, except to show the inadequacy of the moderators there.

[Barzin]

I find it very discouraging and silly.  As the same tradition, we even deny our own texts and scripture and some gurus!  It is to me equivalent as denying the whole lineage and tradition, then why not Buddhism as a whole?  If there is real doubt and mistakes in the subject matter, wouldn't we spend extra effort to find out more before we pass our judgement?  It boils down to being unfair to the practitioners.   But the beauty is it makes the Shugden practitioners more patience and tolerant towards the others.  Well, at least we never deny the other Buddhas! 

I would love to see if other sites and forum openly discuss about the controversial, wouldn't it benefit themselves more to learn from others?  and IF the practice is bad just like what His Holiness said, then an open discussion will allow people to present the evidence and openly discuss since we got nothing to hide. 

[Ensapa]

The Shugden affair is probably the biggest religious controversy in the world of Buddhism today and by not opening discussions on this subject matter, it shows that these people have something to hide. These sites are like the only Sports Chanels on TV that don't feature the Olympics that is taking place now. I am sure if the anti-Shugden people have solid facts to backup their belief they would be making a loud noise about it.
Its more like there is no reason for them to not allow the discussion of Dorje Shugden in their forums but more like they are afraid of appearing to be labelled as anti Dalai Lama by allowing the topic to be discussed. There will always be fanatics and crusaders who would bring up the point that the Dalai Lama had said that it will shorten his life, but are unable to explain in what way and how. They just parrot.

But come to think about it, what can a Buddhist forum which is anti--Shugden say about the matter other than parrot the words of the Dalai Lama? The reality is that there is no religious basis for the ban and the reasons given for the ban are so wafer thin that anyone who cares to investigate only a bit further, will see through them as absolute fraudulent propositions.
The only reason why they are "anti" Dorje Shugden is because they are afraid to be labelled as anti Dalai Lama. So in reality they dont even know WHY is Dorje Shugden bad, they just did it to follow the crowd. Such are buddhists of this day and age.

If those forums were to allow discussions on DS, those who know real facts about Dorje Shugden can so easily participate and literally tear them to shreds. It is too risky for them which is sad because the whole entire about having forums is for people to engage in discussions so that learning can take place.
If they allow discussion on DS, everyone would be pro DS as there is never any real proof that he is evil. In the past, there have been attempts but due to the Dalai Lama's own army of scholars with distorted facts, they resort to using ways like making personal attacks at people who try to defend Dorje Shugden, or doubting the source of the information (this is a very classic tactic used by these internet scholars, but for some reason, their information source is always right while others are always wrong!) which makes the argument a really silly one. it is odd tho, as if someone paid them to be right at all costs in this forums and discussion groups before the total silence on Dorje Shugden was implemented and if they appear to be correct, they  get paid. Odd indeed.

Too bad.
Oh well, some people just prefer it to be that way.

I do not know if this silence is the effect of the ban or that it is a result of the stupidity and the herd mentality of people because this display is very similar to how Christians shut off all other things that seem to challenge their faith. When we know that our beliefs has no basis, we tend to be very afraid of things that might challenge that. I wonder tho how would they react if the ban was lifted? How can they reconcile?

[Positive Change]

THE ABUSE OF CARROTS!

Actually, come to think of it, I think that the reason why Dorje Shugden is banned in the Buddhist forums is because of the behaviour of both sides of the debate – both pro and anti-DS people were very personal, very derogatory, sometimes vicious and very unbuddhist.
So since these two parties appear to be unable to have a decent conversation together, they banned the topic.
Unlike here, where the discussions are pretty decent and peaceful and where it is about the only popular place where we can discuss DS issues.

I do think that this is most true.
Yet, a forum is a very good place to make a point and make one self heard, IF DORJE SHUGDEN WAS SO DANGEROUS THEN WHY IS THERE NO DEBATE ON THE FORUM THAT EXPLAIN THIS AND MAKE SURE LESS AND LESS PEOPLE RELY ON DORJE SHUGDEN?

Why if not because they can't win a debate....

Let's imagine this: a forum about drugs but it is not allowed to speak about heroin?
Heroin use is destructive, and a debate over this is easily won.

Or let's imagine this differently: a forum about drugs led by a worldly acclaimed drug specialist who dictated that carrot is an hallucinating drug and must be banned, and on the forum we can talk about everything but not the ban on carrots.
Who would win the debate over the abuse of carrots and its destructive effect on society?

LOL!

This is funny! What you say is true. It seems highly illogical to forbid these very points of discussions in a debate/forum. If one were to really have the "bullets", so to speak to disprove of a point, surely that would be the highlighted. However the reason why such forums/site shy away is because they probably are themselves not sure or at least sure of how they feel but cannot defend their point. That in itself is contradictory to one's belief. If one cannot be 100% sure of one's own belief, how can one then be sure what one believes is true? Illogical!

Of course one has the prerogative to do whatever one wants in his or her own site. That is why, I personally find dorjeshugden.com very refreshing. Not everyone that enters this website or forum is pro or for Dorje Shugden. But the fact that there is discussion and debate, we ALL learn something. We DO NOT merely assume!

The very basis of Buddhism is to question, to absorb, to understand, to contemplate and to come up with one's own opinions based on what we hear, see and feel. However, that is NOT only for Buddhism but it applies to everyone. We do it subconsciously in our daily lives, why don't we apply it to more relevant and important issues then?

[thor]

I agree with what ensapa said - the forums are most likely afraid to be associated with being pro-Dorje Shugden, in fear that they will be in the spotlight. Perhaps they are afraid that the Tibetan govt will clamp down on them, but I believe it's because they are afraid they will lose the support of other visitors to their forums. It's ridiculous how everyone hates and fears even the slightest mention of Dorje Shugden actually. If they were so convinced that Dorje Shugden's practice was so wrong, why not take the trouble to educate the "wrong-doers"? Its because they aren't able to win the debate against Shugden.

There ARE some forums and websites that allow discussion on the topic of Shugden. For example, Tricycle. I have seen raging debates about Dorje Shugden on there, and guess what? The nay-sayers can't make their points successfully because they don't have any solid points! And that's why, I think, the topic of Shugden is not allowed on forums.

Another thing - I'm pretty sure that if you were to discuss about satanism, Christianity, Islam or any other form of religion on the Buddhist forums, that would be allowed. And the debates would go back and forth. But, at least that discussion is allowed! This is akin to the situation with the Dalai lama, where Shugden practitioners are not allowed at his talks, but Christians, satanists, etc are allowed.... Think, is it logical? Or pure hypocrisy?

[dsiluvu]

I like the ABUSE of CARROTS scenario given... and it is true isn't... a forum is meant for people to get in and have debates and discussions. Esangha and all the other so-called Buddhist forum are actually not being very Buddhist if you ask me.... because Buddhist esp Vajrayana Gelugpa tradition encourages debate and heated or not shows the state of your mind and knowledge.

As to Why they specifically BAN Dorje Shugden topics is probably because

1. They are pro Dalai Lama and just follow blindly - quite sad as they are supposedly quite knowledgeable, intelligent moderators.

2. They do not want to appear in the Bad Books of the Tibetan Government

3. Probably because of No.1 and because they are to damn lazy to investigate hence they do not have enough points to rebuke back when debating with Shugdenpas.

4. It is not to loose face and show the world how silly they look.

5. They do not wish our points on Dorje Shugden trigger newbies curiosity and perhaps even influence the newbies on the forum.

[Ensapa]

I agree with what ensapa said - the forums are most likely afraid to be associated with being pro-Dorje Shugden, in fear that they will be in the spotlight. Perhaps they are afraid that the Tibetan govt will clamp down on them, but I believe it's because they are afraid they will lose the support of other visitors to their forums. It's ridiculous how everyone hates and fears even the slightest mention of Dorje Shugden actually. If they were so convinced that Dorje Shugden's practice was so wrong, why not take the trouble to educate the "wrong-doers"? Its because they aren't able to win the debate against Shugden.
Some anti Dorje Shugden people can be quite fanatical on the net, and they can sound very convincing. One even wonders if these people were hired by a powerful or an unknown hand to ensure that unsuspecting people are convinced, as they seem to be professionals at making the points of pro Dorje Shugden people sound bad and theirs sound good. It is a very odd pattern that I have observed. Companies have been known to hire people to write positive things about them and rebut people who say negative things about them, so I am not surprised if this is the case.

There ARE some forums and websites that allow discussion on the topic of Shugden. For example, Tricycle. I have seen raging debates about Dorje Shugden on there, and guess what? The nay-sayers can't make their points successfully because they don't have any solid points! And that's why, I think, the topic of Shugden is not allowed on forums.
I do observe that trend as well. In forums that allow open discussion, usually these naysayers are unable to answer and pretty much start the arguments by declaring the viewpoint of the other party twisted or inaccurate without saying anything about their own viewpoint. When they realize they have nothing to say, they will soon resort to personal attacks to appear victorious.

Another thing - I'm pretty sure that if you were to discuss about satanism, Christianity, Islam or any other form of religion on the Buddhist forums, that would be allowed. And the debates would go back and forth. But, at least that discussion is allowed! This is akin to the situation with the Dalai lama, where Shugden practitioners are not allowed at his talks, but Christians, satanists, etc are allowed.... Think, is it logical? Or pure hypocrisy?
I think it is just plain stupidity on display if you ask me. It's just their insecurities at play and a very obvious sign of their lack of openness and understanding when it comes to this issue. The Dorje Shugden issue is not that complex when seen from a neutral viewpoint, but it becomes very hard to reconcile with the actual information without distorting them when seen from the perspective that is pro Dalai Lama. This is where people actually start losing it.

buddhism is all about learning and applying what has been learnt. By effectively silencing people from talking about that topic, be it because the mods are afraid of flak from other lineages (yes, we should respect the fact that they see Dorje Shugden as their enemy) or because they are just too lazy and too ignorant to see the facts, they cause many others to be deprived of a protector and cause their own forums to degenerate as a result of their inability to discuss and think without bias and logically.

[yontenjamyang]

To quote the Dalai Lama.

"This does not mean there is no conflict. So long we human being with sophisticated mind is there, some conflict is always there. So while we are promoting peace, we must promote some non-violence method; that is dialog. Today's world is heavily interconnected. Therefore interest is not clear cut. Therefore the best thing is dialog and compromise. Their interest is also your interest. The destruction of your neighbor is also the destruction of yourself. Understand that reality. Then carry out dialog. Respect other's interest.Respect other's view.Share their interest and then compromise with a spirit of reconciliation. Then we must make every effort to promote dialog."

It is therefore very clear that if these forums share the view of the Dalai Lama, they must promote dialog. Only with dialog can we understand other's view and interest. Only with dialog can we have true harmony and avoid destruction of your neighbors and yourselves. Only with dialog can we change our understanding and values. Only with dialog can we rest our fears. Only with dialog can we have true equanimity and altruism.

After all, we are all Buddhist.