So we are just EVIL (?)

[dsiluvu]

This is so witty and hilarious! I can't help but share it again...

Watch Kundeling Rinpoche appears from 02:55 -03: 29

Dalai Lama Taken to Court for Religious Discrimination

Dalai Lama Taken to Court for Religious Discrimination

 
"So, there is no democracy. The man, Dalai Lama talks about democracy. Talks about compassion. Talks about dialogue. Talks about understanding. Talks about a solution. But for us, there is no solution. There's no dialogue. There's no understanding. There's no compassion because in his perception, we are not human beings. We are evil. We are just evil and we are agents of the Chinese. That's what it is."

It appears that Buddha's teaching on loving all mother sentient beings is being rewritten to only loving thos who are not Dorje Shugden practitioners!

Kundeling Rinpoche really is so bluntly logical! I love it

He became the fourth successor to the Golden Throne of Tsongkhapa, and reached Enlightenment during one lifetime. Baso Je Chokyi Gyaltsen’s reincarnations, however, continued to appear in Tibet in twelve successive lives. These successive reincarnations served as great masters of the Ganden Lineage, some as Kings or ruling Regents, while others were tutors to successive Dalai Lamas.

But the Tibetan Govt went and recognised another Kundeling Rinpoche and they put posters out of this Kundeling Rinpoche to say He is a Dorje Shugden practitioner with all his personal details/address... the people stoned his Ladrang in Drepung and he had to leave. His huge foundation in the US was seized by the Tibetan Govt and passed to the new Kundeling Rinpoche recognised by the Tibetan Govt... Do u think this is fair??! Sure does not to me!!

13th Kundeling Rinpoche Tagtsha Jetung Rinpochehttp://www.dorjeshugden.com/?p=2119

[dsiluvu]

Another light bulb moment from Kundeling Rinpoche... watch 9:30 it is so funny...

Kundeling Rinpoche.wmv	Small | Large

all it takes is logic which we have been trained to use in our tradition and practice... think if HHDL can be harmed by Dorje Shugden, hence it seems He does not have refuge, then how is it that He can be a Buddhist teacher?? And then he pauses...

Obviously HHDL is still very much alive and healthy, no?

[Ensapa]

This is so witty and hilarious! I can't help but share it again...

Watch Kundeling Rinpoche appears from 02:55 -03: 29

Dalai Lama Taken to Court for Religious Discrimination
Dalai Lama Taken to Court for Religious Discrimination
 
"So, there is no democracy. The man, Dalai Lama talks about democracy. Talks about compassion. Talks about dialogue. Talks about understanding. Talks about a solution. But for us, there is no solution. There's no dialogue. There's no understanding. There's no compassion because in his perception, we are not human beings. We are evil. We are just evil and we are agents of the Chinese. That's what it is."

It appears that Buddha's teaching on loving all mother sentient beings is being rewritten to only loving thos who are not Dorje Shugden practitioners!

Kundeling Rinpoche really is so bluntly logical! I love it

He became the fourth successor to the Golden Throne of Tsongkhapa, and reached Enlightenment during one lifetime. Baso Je Chokyi Gyaltsen’s reincarnations, however, continued to appear in Tibet in twelve successive lives. These successive reincarnations served as great masters of the Ganden Lineage, some as Kings or ruling Regents, while others were tutors to successive Dalai Lamas.

But the Tibetan Govt went and recognised another Kundeling Rinpoche and they put posters out of this Kundeling Rinpoche to say He is a Dorje Shugden practitioner with all his personal details/address... the people stoned his Ladrang in Drepung and he had to leave. His huge foundation in the US was seized by the Tibetan Govt and passed to the new Kundeling Rinpoche recognised by the Tibetan Govt... Do u think this is fair??! Sure does not to me!!

13th Kundeling Rinpoche Tagtsha Jetung Rinpochehttp://www.dorjeshugden.com/?p=2119

I personally think the practice of recognizing another tulku just because the real one is practicing Dorje Shugden is going to be a problem in the future. What if fake tulkus are recognized, or even worse, random people are being recognized as tulkus just so that the real one who is practicing Dorje Shugden will be pressed down. I have heard of and have personally spoke to a guy in singapore who told everyone that he was recognized as a tulku by the Dalai Lama and even have a set of robes by the Dalai Lama, but he would not want to go back to the monastery and his actions and behaviour contradicts that of a monk or a tulku, yet he runs around and tells people that he is a tulku. Tulkus in the Gelug tradition are recognised based on their actions and behaviour, not by namesake. By recognizing someone cant do the work of a real tulku, it will cause many people to not be able to benefit from the Dharma.

[WisdomBeing]

I believe that tulkus are merely a label to recognise a particular person as being the incarnation of a high lama. Whether there are politics involved in selecting or recognising a particular tulku, i guess we will never know unless we look at the actions and results of that particular tulku. If the tulku is a fake one, there will be no results. The false tulku will not achieve any Dharma goals nor benefit anyone. However, if we observe a real tulku, we would see if he displays the qualities of a real tulku and a real tulku would have dharma results.

[Ensapa]

I believe that tulkus are merely a label to recognise a particular person as being the incarnation of a high lama. Whether there are politics involved in selecting or recognising a particular tulku, i guess we will never know unless we look at the actions and results of that particular tulku. If the tulku is a fake one, there will be no results. The false tulku will not achieve any Dharma goals nor benefit anyone. However, if we observe a real tulku, we would see if he displays the qualities of a real tulku and a real tulku would have dharma results.

Well the 'fake' Kundeling Rinpoche is as quiet as ever and there has been very little/no news of any of his Dharma works. Why recognize someone that will misuse the resources that would otherwise be used to benefit millions of beings? So what if he gets the title and lots of resources and then dosent use it to benefit others, while the real one is in need of them and needs them to perform Dharma deeds. It is sad indeed where things have to reach this level during these degenerate times just for political correctness and in the process, burn the happiness of millions of beings that could otherwise benefit.

[WisdomBeing]

Unfortunately there is a lot of politics in tulku recognitions because there often is inherited wealth, ladrang, lands etc. However, as a lay person, i really wouldn't like to comment who is an authentic tulku and who isn't! What the heck do i know?

But the Tibetan Govt went and recognised another Kundeling Rinpoche and they put posters out of this Kundeling Rinpoche to say He is a Dorje Shugden practitioner with all his personal details/address... the people stoned his Ladrang in Drepung and he had to leave. His huge foundation in the US was seized by the Tibetan Govt and passed to the new Kundeling Rinpoche recognised by the Tibetan Govt... Do u think this is fair??! Sure does not to me!!

13th Kundeling Rinpoche Tagtsha Jetung Rinpochehttp://www.dorjeshugden.com/?p=2119

I personally think the practice of recognizing another tulku just because the real one is practicing Dorje Shugden is going to be a problem in the future. What if fake tulkus are recognized, or even worse, random people are being recognized as tulkus just so that the real one who is practicing Dorje Shugden will be pressed down. I have heard of and have personally spoke to a guy in singapore who told everyone that he was recognized as a tulku by the Dalai Lama and even have a set of robes by the Dalai Lama, but he would not want to go back to the monastery and his actions and behaviour contradicts that of a monk or a tulku, yet he runs around and tells people that he is a tulku. Tulkus in the Gelug tradition are recognised based on their actions and behaviour, not by namesake. By recognizing someone cant do the work of a real tulku, it will cause many people to not be able to benefit from the Dharma.

I read the comment by dsiluvu again and it is mentioned that the Tibetan govt recognised this other Kundeling Rinpoche. Is the Tibetan govt allowed to recognise tulkus? Surely they are just in charge of secular affairs and not spiritual? Where is the line drawn?

[dsiluvu]

Guys... before you think the Tulku system ain't that important... perhaps you should read this article again...

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/enlightened-path-enlightened-tulkus/

"The Tulku system is so very important within Tibetan Buddhism in general and in particular within the Gelug system. We will die, we will reincarnate and we will take rebirth. So if we practice the Tantras correctly, one of the side benefits is that we can control our rebirth. If we can have control of our rebirth, then why can’t Tulkus? If it is logically possible for us to take charge of our rebirth and future incarnations, then isn’t it also logical that there can be Tulkus among us who have done just that?

Among the Tulkus, there are many level of attainments also. Their ranks within the Buddhist schools or height of their thrones do not always indicate their attainments. How far a Tulku has progressed on his/her path in his/herprevious lives is how much control he/she will have over his/her rebirths.

The Tulku system is indeed still alive, active and thriving. With this system, many great Tulkus are able to return, be recognized and continue their work. It is very important for the Dorje Shugden lineage Tulkus to return among us. It proves to everyone clearly that practicing Dorje Shugden does not bring negative states of rebirth. It is very logical, for how can the worship of a Buddha such as Dorje Shugden bring damage in any way?"

I guess being recognised as a Tulku helps the Tulku to continue his work and make it grow. And like what the article said there are many levels of Tulku... if a does not returns and does not continue to do what He is supposed to do, then perhaps this is not a a very highly attained Tulku. In our Gelug lineage this system of Tulkus so far has been quite good in a sense you see most Tulkus continue what their previous life work has left off or continue to spread the Dharma and expand further.  Although it is just a label and a title, but with this label and title it can reach out to many more people, help more people's faith and belief in reincarnation and their conviction in that there is really "highly attained" beings... WHY NOT? If it benefits why not is what I think.

Honestly when I myself first heard of this "Tulku" system, I was quite amazed by it and my belief in reincarnation and attained beings started to grow from here as I got to know and learn more about them. So hence, it does have a great deal of benefit. Nothing is every 100% perfect because this is samsara but is there is more benefit than dis-benefit, then good! 

[DharmaSpace]

The CTA is destroying their "GOLDEN GOOSE' by getting involved in the recognition of tulkus, recognition of tulks does not fall into the realm of politics and politicians, politicians should do what they do best secular. Read about what I mean they are killing their 'GOLDEN GOOSE' by reading this thread - http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=3417.0

Does CTA know the karma they will create by recognizing incorrect tulkus? Hence buddha was right when he said Buddhism will be destroyed from within!

[Ensapa]

Unfortunately there is a lot of politics in tulku recognitions because there often is inherited wealth, ladrang, lands etc. However, as a lay person, i really wouldn't like to comment who is an authentic tulku and who isn't! What the heck do i know?

I read the comment by dsiluvu again and it is mentioned that the Tibetan govt recognised this other Kundeling Rinpoche. Is the Tibetan govt allowed to recognise tulkus? Surely they are just in charge of secular affairs and not spiritual? Where is the line drawn?

Technically, the Tibetan government arent really allowed to recognise tulkus, but tulkus these days require the CTA to recognise them as tulkus just because the CTA has been in power over this and they can easily trick the innocent and ignorant about the whole thing. And that is what they have been hinging on with their Tibetan independence jives and and the Dorje Shugden ban. And now it has come down to the fact that they are even messing up with the Tulku system as evident with the whole karmapa case although in general their main jurisdiction is over the Gelug tulkus.

It's not good for them to mess with spiritual matters. it will bring them to their ruin soon.

[Rinchen]

Personally I do not think that the CTA should even interfere with anything that is with regards to spiritual practices. This would include not only the recognition of the Tulkus, but also with regards to the ban.

To be honest, what would the CTA know anything about spirituality at all? They would not know anything unless one of the high lamas like the Dalai Lama tells them something. And even if that is the case, the CTA would be just following blindly, not knowing what is going on at all.

Just think about it, the amount of schism that the CTA has caused within the Buddhists in India and Tibet is just so much that it will be difficult for them to purify that negative karma that is being generated!

[Blueupali]

Another light bulb moment from Kundeling Rinpoche... watch 9:30 it is so funny...

Kundeling Rinpoche.wmv

all it takes is logic which we have been trained to use in our tradition and practice... think if HHDL can be harmed by Dorje Shugden, hence it seems He does not have refuge, then how is it that He can be a Buddhist teacher?? And then he pauses...

Obviously HHDL is still very much alive and healthy, no?

Precisely.  I am rejoicing in Kundeling Rinpoche right now; I also missed the bit where I am an agent of the Chinese?  I say prayers to Dorje Shugden so.... this means I am agent of the Chinese?  Well, somebody forgot to inform me.... anyway, I do always pray for the Chinese and all other living beings, so I guess in that sense we are working for China and all living beings.... I always pray they will meet with more favorable dharma conditions.... and so will all other living beings....
 
 
 

[Blueupali]

I believe that tulkus are merely a label to recognise a particular person as being the incarnation of a high lama. Whether there are politics involved in selecting or recognising a particular tulku, i guess we will never know unless we look at the actions and results of that particular tulku. If the tulku is a fake one, there will be no results. The false tulku will not achieve any Dharma goals nor benefit anyone. However, if we observe a real tulku, we would see if he displays the qualities of a real tulku and a real tulku would have dharma results.

Right, I agree whether a person is recognized or not we would need to look at their particular actions and results before we could decide to follow them.  Concerning the tulku system, some schools have it, which is fine, and some schools won't, like the NKT, which is also fine.  At least to me it is fine, because I think those in charge of each school know what will bring the best results in each case; In the Kagyu school we have two candidates for Karmapa; I went to teachings with both and for me and of the two decided which one I resonated with more; when there are two candidates maybe students can go see both and decide which works for them; consider though that in the future some schools might be so oppressed by politics that only 'fake' tulkus are picked; then basically the student is left with the same problem as when no tulku is picked at all--- like no easy way to find their lama.  (Actually, I think praying really hard to find him will bring the correct karmic results).
  At any rate the tulku thing has sometimes worked and sometimes not, throughout history.  Frankly, though a lot of really amazing Buddhist teachers have been identified, we also have several recongitions of the Dalai Lama which were not really enlightened, at least not if we go by their actions.  The 5th recognition was anti-Shugden until almost the end of his life, invited Mongols to invade to kill off some rival Kagyus--- or rather the monks of the Kagyus--- killing people in robes is not generally the sort of thing that Buddhas advocate, okay.... so, if the 5th wasn't enlightened, then maybe they found the Dalai Lama again or not by the 6th, but the main point of the Dalai Lama was to be the political leader of Tibet.  By analogy, trying to find the reincarnation of a king to make him be king might be difficult, since the king may not have been a Buddha, may have done many negative actions as a king, and might be in a lower realm. 

[samayakeeper]

Well, I admire these two lamas speaking openly and candidly of their opinion and belief. Not many people would or dared to. Unlike those people in CTA who have no gall.

[Blueupali]

]The Tulku system is indeed still alive, active and thriving. With this system, many great Tulkus are able to return, be recognized and continue their work. It is very important for the Dorje Shugden lineage Tulkus to return among us.[/b] It proves to everyone clearly that practicing Dorje Shugden does not bring negative states of rebirth. It is very logical, for how can the worship of a Buddha such as Dorje Shugden bring damage in any way?" [/color]

Concerning the tulku system, I think it does benefit beings to have some tulkus that are recognized, and as you point out, of course it does help people notice all the Dorje Shugden practioners didn't end up in the lower realms.  So, that does work for some schools, and others, like in the NKT may not want to endanger the life of the next reincarnate, may think it is too difficult for a school that is in the west or have other valid reasons for not recognizing them.  As for me, I can go either way, but it does help me personally to run into lamas like Trijang Rinpoche or Karmapa, who are both recognized.   Trijang Rinpoche does help us by allowing people to notice that people who practice Shugden are sometimes even Buddhas, and therefore reassure them that we will not end up in the lower realms for prayers to Manjushri:).

[Rinchen]

Concerning the tulku system, I think it does benefit beings to have some tulkus that are recognized, and as you point out, of course it does help people notice all the Dorje Shugden practioners didn't end up in the lower realms.  So, that does work for some schools, and others, like in the NKT may not want to endanger the life of the next reincarnate, may think it is too difficult for a school that is in the west or have other valid reasons for not recognizing them.  As for me, I can go either way, but it does help me personally to run into lamas like Trijang Rinpoche or Karmapa, who are both recognized.   Trijang Rinpoche does help us by allowing people to notice that people who practice Shugden are sometimes even Buddhas, and therefore reassure them that we will not end up in the lower realms for prayers to Manjushri:).

I beg to differ, I think that the system do benefit beings. This is because it would let people have more faith in what they practice. They would know that these Tulkus come back to benefit us, and to help us. I think that this is important as it would show many that reincarnation do happen, and it is not something that people just talk about without any prove.