mixing traditions

[indolent1]

Hi,

My teacher has told me not to do it. Plus I have read this advice from teachers in non-Buddhist traditions, both from a Western shamanic tradition and also a Sufi teacher.

However, it does seem a shame as there are so many wonderful practices. It can't really be a hindrance can it? Anyone got any experience on this?

[Alexis]

Mixing traditions is the best way to loose the blessing of each.

It's also like trying to flow down river with each foot in different canoes. You won't reach your destination and you'll just get wet and cold.

Also, sufi, shamanism, buddhism, etc. Have you really given a thought where you want to go before embarking on a journey?

Sincerly,

Alexis

[indolent1]

Hi Alexis,

Thanks for the advice.

[vajraD]

It is good to understand all traditions and to experience all of them but at the end of the day after all the checking and shopping. We will have to stop and stick to one so that we can reach our destination. If not we will end up like a headless chicken running around and we may end up confusing our mind.
Cheers and happy finding.

[Ensapa]

Mixing traditions is not a good idea because some traditions may appear to be contradictory although both of them are correct in their own way. There are some exceptions, for example the Kagyu and Nyigma traditions are interchangeable in terms of teachings, lineages and lineage masters and thus there is nothing wrong with mixing them around. Gelug however is a different system, as it is more self contained, complete and focused compared to the other traditions. The path and system is already in place to help us gain enlightenment and it is not a good idea to mess it up by importing ideas from another tradition. That's like throwing a spanner on the assembly belt, things won't work anymore and it will mess everything up.

Each and every tradition have their own uniqueness and they have their own systems that may or may not be interchangeable. If Nyigma and Kagyu can be mixed around, it does not automatically mean that it is okay for Gelug practitioners to mix around too since "they do it as well". The reason being is that each tradition has their own do's and don'ts, so if we are to follow a tradition we should stick to the tradition's rules, regulations and system instead of inventing our own which will basically cause us to lose the effectiveness of any of the traditions that we choose to follow.

If we think that we are smarter than the teacher or that we can outsmart the current system that is in place in the tradition that we choose to follow, why are we even following that tradition in the first place? If we want a PhD, we have to go to a college and follow the system that is in place to get a PhD: do our thesis, do our exams, etc. We can't adopt a part of another education system, like for example vocational training and get away with having our cert. That is the same principal here. It is best to just follow because the system has proven results time and time again with many scholars and masters and all we need to do is just practice in accordance with it.

The key point here is to listen to our Lama. If our Lama says it is okay to mix things around, then we can. If he or she says we are not allowed to take teachings from other traditions, it it only to protect our spiritual growth and to prevent us from getting lost. If our teacher feels like we should go to another tradition, as a teacher they will send us to those traditions that we have more affinity for. But since we chose our teacher and follow his tradition, it means that we have a great affinity with him! Again, there is no need unless the teacher specifically says we are allowed to.

[hope rainbow]

It is important that we come to the conviction that our tradition is THE BEST!
When we ascertain that fact, then it is illogical to keep looking around for "better" teachings in other traditions, it is a waste of time, and we do not have the luxury of time.

Our tradition is not THE BEST in the absolute, that would also be illogical, because a "tradition" is only a method, a mean to reach an aim. So the tradition is not the aim in itself, it is not the ultimate, for the ultimate is the aim, not the mean.

My tradition is THE BEST FOR ME, that is what it means.

In order to go from point A to point B, there are many various ways, and various means, I can go by foot, by car, by boat, by train, by balloon and through many different routes, but if I spend my life time inspecting and comparing the different routes and means, I'd end up at the same place at the end... Worse, I have wasted a life time already, and how can I be sure that I'd have another one again?

So if somebody comes to the strong conviction that the Muslim faith is THE BEST (for him), then  why hesitate, some should practice Islam.

Spirituality is not an object of intellectual research, or to say this more accurately, it is not ONLY that.
If one keeps it at that only, then it has very little effect on one's mind, very little, and it may even make one become more proud and more "up-side down pot"-like.

I have once met with a great university scholar of Tibetan Buddhism who met with a High Lama for a discussion.
This scholar had met with many Lamas and Rinpoche's before and even the Dalai Lama himself.
that scholar explained in great detail to this high Lama  the signification of the shapes of the different stupas, the levels, etcetera...
After having patiently listened to the scholar's explanations over the signification and symbolism of this shape, that aspect, etc... That High Lama finally told the scholar: "all what you said is very interesting, but completely useless!"

The scholar was very surprized at that comment, and to this day still is trying to figure out what this high Lama meant when he said that....

It is as useless as a detailed explanation about how to get somewhere when one does not go anywhere and has no intention to go.

[Manjushri]

I feel that mixing traditions is a no-go, not because of the various traditions itself per se but because it may complicate our spiritual journey further.

A spiritual journey in Buddhism in my understanding is similar to that of choosing one’s preferred education system, degree and university/school . It is like, if you do A levels, then you would not need to do an American year 11/12/13 as well…or an Australian foundation course, because you know that you want to study in England (or somewhere that requires A levels as your entry grades). It would be pointless to do all 3, because they all result in the same aim, which is you completing your education degree. What is important is that whatever you choose is dependent on your university and course. You believe that the university you choose will lead you to where you ultimately want to be. You don’t have to go to both Harvard and Imperial. You chose the one you like, after checking them out.

Likewise, after studying various traditions, sects, schools of Buddhism, you chose which tradition you like the most, and that you believe will lead you to enlightenment. Then you go all the way with the tradition and/or guru. If you mix between traditions, yes, although leading you to the same result, they each take on different methods, which might be more detrimental than good.

[harrynephew]

There are many traditions which have sprung up ever since the dawn of Buddhism in India, China and of course Tibet. Each holding a special characteristic due the fact that it has potent powers from its source, Lord Buddha himself. When practiced properly and diligently, realizations are bound to arise through the truth that these teachings are infallible.

In Tibet, the teachings of perfect lineages such as th Nyingma, Kagyu and Sakyas were very potent in power and have reached the shores and lands beyond its origins over the past few decades. People with little education or are new to the tradition would not know the etiquette of handling Dharma lineages and Lamas.

From the responses above, everyone had already responded negative with their points of view. These are valid but I would like to point out the kindness of Je Tsongkhapa who is the King of Dharma in all Three Worlds here guised during this degenerate times as a humble monk. Je Tsongkhapa took all the surviving lineages during his time and practiced each and every available teachings there was and meditated upon them. Only when attainments, realizations and siddhis arose did Je  Tsongkhapa incorporated these teachings into our current Ganden curriculum.

Why? Because Je Tsongkhapa wanted us to practice what is of benefit. We should understand that back then Dharma was like goods sold in Baghdad as they were in Lhasa. Every other terma or vision would be a teaching. To clear all doubts, Je Tsongkhapa braved through all these through debate, reasoning and of course, practice. This made so much changes during that time that no one dared to challenge Je Rinpoche because they would know that they'll end up in defeat.

Hence, Je Rinpoche's kindness of REFINING and FILTERING these teachings for us has already set a good precedence for all our Dharma endeavors. What else do we need?

Of course other lineages are fabulous from their sources, practices and attainments. But do remember the kindness of Je Tsongkhapa who had worked tirelessly for the sake of the people of today. So many 'short cuts' so many 'time-savers' have been incorporated. Yet people are so blind not to see.

And therefore Dorje Shugden arose to protect these sets of teachings rendered by the Buddhas of the Three Times to be immaculate!

[vajratruth]

As I understand it, the basis of all the traditions are the same and all follow a training that combines Sutra and Tantra. The Sutra topics are the same i.e. prajnaparamita, madhyamaka, pramana and abhidharma. All traditions study works by Maitreaya, Asanga, Nagajurna, Chandrakirti and Shantideva etc.

The different traditions also practice many of the same yidams e.g. Vajrayogini, Tara, Manjushri, Avalokiteshvara and Chakrasambava.

However, I agree that there are differences in the way each tradition defines certain terms and it is said that each tradition explains the same subject matter from a different perspective. For example, one tradition may explain a subject matter from the viewpoint of a lay practitioner, another explains the same subject matter from the perspective of an advanced practitioner and yet another tradition may explain it from the viewpoint of an enlightened being.

I guess the primary reason for not mixing "traditions" is to keep the vocabulary and perspectives of our training consistent. This is especially true for who may have just started on the path and who will not be skilled enough to see that different traditions teaches the same thing but in a different way. For example, of the 4 Tibetan schools  the Gelugpas say that the mind is impermanent but the Kagyupas and Nyingmapas claim that the mind is permanent in that the awareness of things continue permanently.

Another reason not to mix traditions is out of sheer respect of the Guru and the lineage.

Having said all that I feel it is important not to discriminate between one tradition or another lest we inadvertently "abandon the dharma" by being selective with all the Buddha's teachings.

[Positive Change]

Hi,

My teacher has told me not to do it. Plus I have read this advice from teachers in non-Buddhist traditions, both from a Western shamanic tradition and also a Sufi teacher.

However, it does seem a shame as there are so many wonderful practices. It can't really be a hindrance can it? Anyone got any experience on this?

I believe, very simply... it is NOT the traditions per se that is the problem nor that of the mixing of these traditions. It actually lies in us and whether or not we CAN accept on a completely non biased perception to accept these so called traditions for what they are worth and learn from it. It is US that is the problem and thus we are NOT encouraged to "mix" traditions less we get confused. I liken it to juggling. When we have too many balls in the air, we may end up dropping all!

Just to touch very briefly on mixing of traditions:

HHDL has received teachings from various traditions within the Tibetan Buddhist realm hence it does not mean it cannot be done. But we need to ask ourselves, are we HHDL?

To learn and accept other traditions but to hold on to OURS as THE way (not the ONLY way) for us is fine. After all, we do need to compare before we can conclude what is right for us.

[pgdharma]

I feel that mixing tradition is not correct as it will create more confusion. A beginner  may go around learning the different traditions and end up confusing himself/herself as there are so many different ways and methods to choose from. So choose the one we like best and stick to it. Stick to one Guru, one Centre, as our Guru will find the best method to guide us in our spiritual journey. If our Guru does not allow us to attend, it is to protect us from getting confuse and lost which may hinder our spiritual growth.

[DSFriend]

Especially in the Vajrayana path, it is very important to be devoted to our Guru ones we have decided to study and follow him/her. Nobody forced us to be so and so's student. Thus, what Pgdharma said about sticking to one Guru and one centre is COMMON and NECESSARY throughout the Tibetan school of Buddhism.

Thus, it is important to take time to get to know the lama before deciding to establish a guru-student relationship. In a culture where we may not be familiar with Guru-Student samaya, we often take this relationship for granted thinking there is a buffet of LAMAS AND RINPOCHES for us to pick and choose from.

I think we should rather look at ourselves in the mirror first and think gosh, "how fortunate i am to be able to meet this Lama who has so kindly taken me under his care"

[Ensapa]

Especially in the Vajrayana path, it is very important to be devoted to our Guru ones we have decided to study and follow him/her. Nobody forced us to be so and so's student. Thus, what Pgdharma said about sticking to one Guru and one centre is COMMON and NECESSARY throughout the Tibetan school of Buddhism.

Thus, it is important to take time to get to know the lama before deciding to establish a guru-student relationship. In a culture where we may not be familiar with Guru-Student samaya, we often take this relationship for granted thinking there is a buffet of LAMAS AND RINPOCHES for us to pick and choose from.

I think we should rather look at ourselves in the mirror first and think gosh, "how fortunate i am to be able to meet this Lama who has so kindly taken me under his care"

The whole problem being is people do want to believe that they are entitled to choose and thus the thought of sticking with one lama and one tradition scares them. What if the lama turns out be bad? will I have backups? Buddhism has been promoted in a way that it is an alternative to Christianity, and that it is a free religion in a sense that nobody can tell you what to do and you just follow the Buddha's words that you feel suits you. That is the way where it was promoted for most of the traditions in general when it first went global.

However, that is not Buddhism is all about but merely what people want to believe. So when they encounter a tradition that requires them to have total and full commitment, they run away because that was the reason why they joined Buddhism: to not need to commit to a religion. So these people will run way from teachers that ask them to commit and see being loyal to a tradition as being sectarian and engage in many different traditions.

But honestly, if we're only going to do what we like only and run away when things get a bit uncomfortable, how is that even spiritual practice? the motivation for it is wrong in the first place. Perhaps, some people just want to have peace in their lives but sadly the lack of loyalty in their personality will cause them to not have a peaceful life…if they can be disloyal to their own spiritual practice that easily, they will also be disloyal to their workplace, friends, spouses and give up whenever things get tough as attitudes are pervasive.

Many people seek for peace yet they do not realize that the key to have peace, calmness and stability is to have loyalty in life, be it on spiritual or secular matters and go through the difficult times as it will increase our mental fortitude and tolerance towards negative situations = more peace in the long run.

[honeydakini]

There is some kind of misunderstanding on this, I believe. It is not that you cannot take teachings from other traditions FOREVER AND EVER. It is advice that is given to the practitioner as they begin on their path, because trying to learn everything from everywhere can become very confusing (I should know! I used to do this - got me nowhere now that I look back on what I used to do).

Highly attained, knowledgeable and very stable practitioners may even be advised by their teachers to take teachings from other Lamas or other traditions. This is not bad nor wrong. Certain practitioners may need to do this because they may need those teachings for certain things they have to do in the future. This is a very individual thing that can only be determined for us by our teachers, who will know our level of knowledge, understanding and stability, and be able to advise us according to what would be best for us.

I have personally found it very grounding to follow just one teacher and his teachings from his tradition. I had come from a new age background, where teachings came from all sorts of traditions, like a pot luck. They were very beautiful teachings, but you lose your focus and direction quite quickly this way.

I must add that it took me quite a long time to get to where I am now though. I think it is important to really check the path you wish to engage in. Examine the center, the teachings and the teacher. This is not meant to sound as bad as it does! but it's important to be comfortable and have confidence in the path that you do choose, so that you can stay with it in the long term and achieve something with it. I guess it's not any different from choosing a partner, or choosing which university you wish to go to, checking its credentials and what it can do for you. On the most superficial level, this is what it means to also choose your centers and teachers wisely. I hope that helps.

[Ensapa]

Going for one tradition only helps to stabilize the mind, when that happens it doesent matter what other traditions that the student goes to because the mind is already stable.  Different traditions have different systems and different philosophies that may seem at odds with each other due to lack of understanding and experience in the teachings. If we follow one all the way and focus, undistracted and master that path then we master the rest of the teachings as well, automatically.

For example, in the Gelug tradition, Setrap is an enlightened protector while in the Nyigma and Sakya traditions he is not. If you're gonna practical all 4 traditions what will happen to Setrap? see him as enlightened or not? How to reconcile? Another example are the works of another famous lama that many non gelugs put on the same level as Tsongkhapa: a sakya scholar called gorampa. he wrote many works that refuted Tsongkhapa's teachings, but never even debated with Tsongkhapa even though they lived during the same time. How can you be Gelug and accept that Tsongkhapa is wrong at the same time and get blessings? impossible and illogical.

As you can see, there are many "contradictions" between the traditions and it is almost impossible to reconcile all of them with each other, especially at our level where we have not mastered or attained the teachings yet. We would go crazy just trying to check out the 84000 doors of the Buddha's teachings, that would take a very long time…probably 3 aeons of choosing and mixing and picking what we like? Mixing the teachings is just like putting 1 foot in 1 door and the other in another door but never entering it…actual practice is not possible unless you're already attained.

As what has been said in many sutras and tantras, all the teachings that the Buddha has taught are like the ocean  the teacher is like the captain of the ship that navigates us through the complex and numerous teachings there are and guide us to the land of enlightenment, so if we have 2 captains and the first one says go north while the other goes west…who are we gonna follow? When we reach the land then we're free to go whatever direction we want because we know the road home.