mixing traditions

[Big Uncle]

However, I believe when you take a Dorje Shugden sogtae (life-entrustment initiation), one is sworn to uphold Lama Tsongkhapa's tradition and not to mix other teachings like the Nyingma teachings. The thing is, I wonder how the Sakyas do it then? Perhaps they are sworn to uphold only Sakya teachings? I don't think we will ever know as Sakya Trizin has effective proclaimed Dorje Shugden as not part of their tradition.

But I believe in the future, practitioners of other traditions will want to practice Dorje Shugden and receive sogtae. So, their vows may have to change. But only a High Lama who will become a lineage holder for Dorje Shugden would be able to do this. It would be interesting to see that day come. I know we don't need validation that our Protector is powerful but I think it will be of most benefit to everyone who practices Dorje Shugden.

[Ensapa]

However, I believe when you take a Dorje Shugden sogtae (life-entrustment initiation), one is sworn to uphold Lama Tsongkhapa's tradition and not to mix other teachings like the Nyingma teachings. The thing is, I wonder how the Sakyas do it then? Perhaps they are sworn to uphold only Sakya teachings? I don't think we will ever know as Sakya Trizin has effective proclaimed Dorje Shugden as not part of their tradition.

But I believe in the future, practitioners of other traditions will want to practice Dorje Shugden and receive sogtae. So, their vows may have to change. But only a High Lama who will become a lineage holder for Dorje Shugden would be able to do this. It would be interesting to see that day come. I know we don't need validation that our Protector is powerful but I think it will be of most benefit to everyone who practices Dorje Shugden.

The sakyas do not see Dorje Shugden as enlightened, they do not have the life entrustment ritual for Dorje Shugden -- the standard Dharmapala prayer that is slightly modified for Dorje Shugden but the contents are pretty much the same as any other Dharmapala prayer. Mainly because Dorje Shugden is a Gelug lama..so why would the Sakyas propitiate a Gelug lama as a Dharma protector? They were keeping the lineage for the Gelugpas because that is where Dorje Shugden really belongs. By the way, the Sakyas have a very close relationship with Gelugpa -- if it was not for gorampa Sakya and Gelug would be what Nyigma and Kagyu is today -- interchangeable lineage masters, teahcings and lineages.

The benefit that we can receive from Dorje Shugden depends on who we view him as: a ordinary Dharma protector or an enlightened Dharma protector who is in reality the Guru, Yidam and Protector all in one and carries the blessings and power of all the 3 different kinds of beings…the view is completely up to us. And that is also the level of benefit that we will get from Dorje Shugden. That is the reason why they do not have sogtae…sogtae was brought back from Tushita by Tapu Dorjechang.

Dorje Shugden in reality appeared in all traditions, even nonbuddhist ones either as a protector or part of their line of lineage lamas. He has Nyigma termas that states very clearly that he is Avalokitieshvara, Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen is also a Kagyu tulku, Dorje Shugden's initial prayers were composed and preserved by the Sakyas, and he also incarnated as a few Sakya Trinzins, and the 5th Dalai Lama's contemporary in the Gelugs. Dorje Shugden belongs to all traditions, which is why he appears as a universal symbol of Buddhists: the monk.

It would be very nice to receive his sogtae and have his heart crystal by my side always, so I will know that I am protected by him and so that I can bless the beings and people of anywhere that I go with Dorje Shugden and plant seeds of enlightenment in their mind.

[DharmaSpace]

When we are not attained and not very knowledgeable then it is not advised to mix the traditions why? Because it is very easy for new people to become confused and mix up the information. I have met many people who have been to many lamas but do not know what kind of practice they have gotten, the name of the lama and the lists goes on. Especially if they don't have a strong support from the dharma centre that is supposed to prepare them for initiaitions and etc.

[Carpenter]

Basically mixing tradition is not something prohibited or not allow to, but it is suggested as “no” to those people who thought that they have a very stable mind but actually not. When someone who is not stables enough for Dharma, they will easily get confused from the different method of teaching, because different lineage uses different method to teach Dharma.

I have personally seen how people became confused and left Dharma just because of going to different Dharma centres. When the same teaching presented in a different method, they thought this is a different message that they are receiving and from then on, they will start doubting on every Lama’s teaching and self create all sorts of obstacle to slow down their Dharma practice.

But if your mind is very stable and have very good understanding on Dharma, then it will be different case, just like many Lamas, they do not only have one Guru from one Lineage, they had a few and some are even from different lineage, in order for them to teach in the future.

So if we were to join other centre’s teaching, it is advisable that we check with our Spiritual guide and get his permission first.

[DharmaSpace]

If our lama is around and is teaching surely there is no real reason to seek teachings from another teacher.

Our lamas is always humble and accommodating but if we seek teachings from another teacher it would suggest in a way our teachers cannot complete our education. Our teachers have no egos.

If we do not have realisations in the topics of the Lamrim, have not completed our preliminaries and we want to stray to other teachings and look for all kinds of lama - simply dangerous. 

As how Carpenter mentioned if we absolutely must attend another teacher's teaching, then pls pls ask your teacher's permission otherwise why have a teacher?

[Klein]

Hi,

My teacher has told me not to do it. Plus I have read this advice from teachers in non-Buddhist traditions, both from a Western shamanic tradition and also a Sufi teacher.

However, it does seem a shame as there are so many wonderful practices. It can't really be a hindrance can it? Anyone got any experience on this?

Dear indolent1,

What is your objective in these wonderful practices?  If your objective is to just to learn on an intellectual basis, then perhaps it's ok. It's just like attending a course on World Religions in school. You study the various religions and understand the gist of what the different practices are.

If your objective is to have some sort of spiritual attainments, then choose a path with a PROVEN track record that you're interested in and stick with it. The key here is PROVEN TRACK RECORD. It'd be much better if you study under a qualified teacher because the teacher would be able to guide you on your practice. This saves a lot of time compared to practising on our own as our teacher can give us feedback on our progress and guide us along the way. This is just like how we'd like to attend the best schools because they have a proven track record of producing outstanding students.

So if spiritual attainments is what you want, then time is of the essence here. We can die anytime anywhere. SO the faster we gain spiritual attainments, the closer we are to salvation.

[samayakeeper]

I have met and spoken to some people who mixes traditional practices and found themselves very confused. All highly attained Buddhist lamas are very safe objects of refuge. We should check out one master and after accepting him as our teacher and he accepting us as his students then we follow only this teacher.

Universities have many qualified teachers but it would be very challenging for students to attend all their classes and tutorials. Likewise, there are many good dharma centres but it would not be good for us to attend dharma talks at every centre available in our country.

[kris]

From a lot of the people I met, many are actually mixing tradition. I guest it depends also on what is the motivation in mixing tradition.

For example, if a person hear that this center or guru is great, then he rushed to this center and hopes to get initiation, then to me this is the lowest of all, called center hopping.

There are people who do not have a guru or the guru left or something and he found another teacher of different tradition. Of course, he should should get permission from his present guru (if possible) before following another guru.

From my experience, people who mix traditions usually (not 100%), their Dharma knowledge is pretty good, but usually on intellectual level. That is they know have the knowledge but they don't practice. This is just my observation.

[Ensapa]

From a lot of the people I met, many are actually mixing tradition. I guest it depends also on what is the motivation in mixing tradition.

For example, if a person hear that this center or guru is great, then he rushed to this center and hopes to get initiation, then to me this is the lowest of all, called center hopping.

There are people who do not have a guru or the guru left or something and he found another teacher of different tradition. Of course, he should should get permission from his present guru (if possible) before following another guru.

From my experience, people who mix traditions usually (not 100%), their Dharma knowledge is pretty good, but usually on intellectual level. That is they know have the knowledge but they don't practice. This is just my observation.

People who mix traditions are actually not secure or confident on their own Dharma practice. They just run around to whatever high lamas that comes to town because they know that they are doing nothing to strengthen their own Dharma practice and thus they hope to rub some off a high lama with the hopes that they will be able to get blessings and whatnot to their spiritual practice.

They want to appear to be sincere and religious. They want to appear to be good Buddhists. They want to appear to be people who are non sectarian and who embraces all of the lineages and teachings. But sadly it leads them nowhere. There isn't much other motivations for mixing traditions and running after the first high lama that stepped out of the airport, one after another rather that to cover up their own insecurities.

I do not understand how some people have no Guru devotion, and then after taking refuge with a Gelug Guru they go ahead and take refuge with the Sakya one who comes around and then suddenly the Sakya one becomes their root Guru and this was done with the permission of the Gelug Guru. Of course at this stage the Gelug Guru would say its okay out of compassion for the student, but the student will have no attainments.

If we are confident of the lineage that we are in, why is there need to mix traditions in the first place? If we mix traditions does it not mean that we are not confident of our own lineage and that we need to mix around not because we can practice them, but merely to make ourselves feel better and to cover our insecurities.

[Carpenter]

I agree with what you say Ensapa, people who usually go for centre hopping is not because they are great or what, it is because they are not satisfy with the answered given by the first centre, that’s why when they heard there is another great master coming, they will go to see him. Why are they so focus on “Great” Master? Why are they so aggressive on it? I have spoke to a few of these people, basically they are so confused with their Dharma knowledge, but for them, they thought they knows a lot, but in fact, they are not.

They basically wanted to find a quick fix to their problem, when they hop around centre, they actually hope to get an answered that their problem will be fixed in no time or they will get rich, etc.

I do not mean everyone, but so far those centre hopping people that I know of, they are like that.
Just to share my thought.

[Ensapa]

I agree with what you say Ensapa, people who usually go for centre hopping is not because they are great or what, it is because they are not satisfy with the answered given by the first centre, that’s why when they heard there is another great master coming, they will go to see him. Why are they so focus on “Great” Master? Why are they so aggressive on it? I have spoke to a few of these people, basically they are so confused with their Dharma knowledge, but for them, they thought they knows a lot, but in fact, they are not.

They basically wanted to find a quick fix to their problem, when they hop around centre, they actually hope to get an answered that their problem will be fixed in no time or they will get rich, etc.

I do not mean everyone, but so far those centre hopping people that I know of, they are like that.
Just to share my thought.

Usually also, they are the ones that end up without much results or progress in both their spiritual or secular lives, and also end up bad mouthing centers or teachers that do not fall in line with their mode of practice or teachers that challenge their beliefs and viewpoints which they will always declare as wrong or invalid while upholding what they believe is right when that is usually not the case.

And in the end, they will end up being lonely and not being able to find any support and approval and they know they're going the wrong path but their ego and fear prevents them from getting on the right path. So it is quite sad to see these people running around because they will also give a bad name to Buddhism as people will look at them and go "Why do Buddhists become like that?" because they become very insecure people in the eyes of others.

The most important question that we should ask ourselves before we mix traditions is, why do we want to do so? what is the real reason for us to seek another lineage? Is it because the current lineage is not working for us or that we are too lazy to follow it through all the way? Or because we are too afraid that by going deeper into the teachings that we discover a part of ourselves that we do not want to face?

In the end, the answer that we would have is that we are just too lazy or too afraid to face ourselves as all lineages that when we go in deeper would ultimately force us to face ourselves, one way or another and there is no way around it except skirting with the surface of every other tradition and declaring it to be profound, then change centers before people see through our facade...

[RedLantern]

I've have always found it important to stick to one practice.It is also equally important to keep an open mind and inquisitive mind to all other kinds of traditions.Most religious/wisdom tradition emanate from a common source,but that by no mean implies that they relate themselves to the source in the same way.
I have read about various other religion.None anywhere near as in depth as Buddhism.I view Buddhist teachings to be completely different from other religion or philosophy.In my opinion it is the only thing that offers a way to actually deal with life in a daily basis without relying or denial or fantasy.

[Rihanna]

It is baffling why a practitioner wants to mix tradition. For those who are doing that or plan to, think again. Have you been able to digest, comprehend, practice and achieve the results of what your teacher has taught you? If you answer is no, then why even think of mixing tradition? Imagine someone attempting to get to the peak of Everest. Along the way, he decides to change his guide. Each guide takes him on a different route according to what they deem fit for the climber. It will take him forever to reach his destination, if he ever reaches.

[Ensapa]

It is baffling why a practitioner wants to mix tradition. For those who are doing that or plan to, think again. Have you been able to digest, comprehend, practice and achieve the results of what your teacher has taught you? If you answer is no, then why even think of mixing tradition? Imagine someone attempting to get to the peak of Everest. Along the way, he decides to change his guide. Each guide takes him on a different route according to what they deem fit for the climber. It will take him forever to reach his destination, if he ever reaches.

In some traditions like Kagyu and Nyigma, it is totally okay for them to mix traditions, but in Sakya and Gelug, this practice is greatly discouraged because Vajrayogini's practice requires stability and focus which cannot be gained if one practices several different traditions in tandem. Nyigma and Kagyu focuses more on Dzogchen and Mahamudra compared to the Anuttara Yoga deities for enlightenment.

With that said, if we are Gelug, we should respect the house rules of Gelug on Guru devotion and also on the prescribed behaviors and attitudes. I have yet to meet a Gelug lama, or heard of one that encourages people to take several different lineages at once or commit to a few different traditions. It is totally okay to do so when exploring to see which path, but its not okay once we have confirmed.

Mixing traditions is okay if it is between Kagyu and Nyigma, but even then, Nyigma/Kagyu students and Lamas rarely study the Sakya or Gelug texts. In fact, many of them tend to avoid Gelug. Is it sectarian? If it is perhaps HHDL should know about this rather than blame it all on Dorje Shugden because I heard that this was already done before the ban was in place.

Recently, my dad went to a Nyigma center and he asked the Khenpo on whether or not it is necessary for someone to stick to a center and a lama, and the khenpo told him it is not and it is due to the lama's fear of losing the student. I find that answer interesting, because it was as though he could tell that it was a Gelug standpoint and he issued that statement to create doubt. Interesting.....

[dsdisciple]

I must say I have enjoyed this thread on mixing traditions...and would have to say when you find one that suits your individual predisposition why would you need anything else?

Having said that though no two practitioners are ever the same...some will search endlessly for the message or teachings that float their boat? but until then will centre-hop-interfaith hop - until they find the ONE.

Interesting response from the Nyigma Khenpo...reading between the lines...Is this a border line case for disparaging another persons guru? practices and attainments? - bringing down to a worldly level??? being worried about loosing a student?? really...

I think the ONLY issue to consider.....A real Guru would be more concerned with a students next life and creating the causes for a better rebirth! Directly and Indirectly using whatever skillful means to benefit.

I don't think such enlightened masters (from any tradition) are concerned about loosing students? because they know that not all students have the karma to be close to them or understand the dharma to transform.

So they will benefit the student in whatever shape or form is possible with each students karma, to ripen karmic seeds in this life, next life or future lives?

xo