Robert Thurman - the inside stories

[Ensapa]

I used to find bob's work very helpful and informative, but his work has always been dry and he relies on too many words to convey a simple meaning, until i found out about him mongering rumors against Dorje Shugden...



Like I have said in a previous post, it does affect my view of his other works because it shows that he is biased and a scholar that only knows half the story. What if his other works happen to be mistranslated information, or inaccurate information as a result of his laziness and unwillingness to view things from different perspectives and cross checking them to make sure if they are correct? Would you want to be misled by such information? would his information still be credible if it was the result of ill research? I certainly do not want to read works that lack depth and that lacks neutrality or are lopsided because i prefer to know the full story, to see the big picture of things rather than just one angle of it. That is what science is about and that is what Buddhism is about, when the Buddha speaks of the ultimate/relative truth, the Buddha meant about seeing the world from an unbiased point of view, as opposed to seeing it from our point of view alone. This is what I understand from all the studying that I have done, so for that reason, I do not like to read about works that lacks neutrality as it also means that the source of the work might not be accurate either.

I dont know about you, but I would not take a scholar that can write very well about Buddhism and its philosophies on paper but whose attitude and behavior does not reflect what he writes at all seriously. It is just hard. too hard.

[diamond girl]

Robert Thurman is one piece of work. He must be with split personalities. Seriously, how can one person who is so learned in Buddhism and good "pals" with the Dalai Lama not have learnt anything about SPEECH! I will not even question about compassion and kindness. After all he did disrobe and return his vows. On this fact, his books should be doomed, then again many exploit the ignorant ones who are simply in pursuit of Buddhism. If only they knew what happens on the other side of his brain.

Robert Thurman should write a book entitled "Self-Reflection: Results of an Un-Transformed Mind"

[dsiluvu]

Poor Robert Thurman... perhaps he has taken the rejection too personally and held a grudge for what else could some one who has logic and a deep thinkier could have such selective and politically view that is down right against any human rights and ethics in which I am certain someone of his intellect and coming from  the land of "freedom" would have known. But for him to talk in such a childish manner towards Dorje Shugden practitioners sure seems like an old man who had a grudge! What ekse could it be for someone of his caliber?

Boy thank goodness he did not receive Dorje Shugden practice. Thank goodness for Gelek and Dromo Geshe Rinpoche's foresight in his character!

This has certainly made me think twice about reading his books now as I have lost a bit of respect for his credibility and though he may be a good writer. Sorry but Thurman could have been more skillful in expressing him self even if he had no choice but to be seen as being on the Dalai Lama's side... certainly name calling is something quite immature for him. Hence this clearly shows that he is certainly does not take in the Dharma as a practice!

[michaela]

Robert Thurman is one piece of work. He must be with split personalities. Seriously, how can one person who is so learned in Buddhism and good "pals" with the Dalai Lama not have learnt anything about SPEECH! I will not even question about compassion and kindness. After all he did disrobe and return his vows. On this fact, his books should be doomed, then again many exploit the ignorant ones who are simply in pursuit of Buddhism. If only they knew what happens on the other side of his brain.

Robert Thurman should write a book entitled "Self-Reflection: Results of an Un-Transformed Mind"

Dear Diamond Girl

Your statement is quite interesting.  You mentioned that it is surprising that Robert who is a good friend of HHDL, has not learned about SPEECH... Hehehe... HHDL has also been contradictory and made many false accusation about DS.  HHDL is the initiator of all this.  From the way I see it, Robert Thurman is only a fickle personality who follow his Guru.  There are many like him.  The only difference is, Robert happened to be a rather high profile scholar.

[Ensapa]

Robert Thurman is one piece of work. He must be with split personalities. Seriously, how can one person who is so learned in Buddhism and good "pals" with the Dalai Lama not have learnt anything about SPEECH! I will not even question about compassion and kindness. After all he did disrobe and return his vows. On this fact, his books should be doomed, then again many exploit the ignorant ones who are simply in pursuit of Buddhism. If only they knew what happens on the other side of his brain.

Robert Thurman should write a book entitled "Self-Reflection: Results of an Un-Transformed Mind"

Maybe its not split personalities, but a weak mind. only someone who has a weak mind can be so easily influenced and swayed. Which brings us the question: how can such a well established scholar that can explain all the philosophies and tenets so well be this weak and fickle? Does it still make sense in some way because if someone like that can talk so much about the teachings and be a celebrated scholar yet has such an unstable mind, does it mean that Lord Buddha's teachings are ineffective? Does it mean that the Dalai Lama has failed in being an effective teacher? If the Dalai Lama is Chenrenzig and a very highly acclaimed teacher, then his teachings are effective, and what bob is just a very bad representation of the Dalai Lama if this is the case. He should really be checking his conduct and be more worried about his body, speech and mind to reflect the Dalai Lama well instead of acting like an immature court jester who is only around to make the Dalai Lama happy and write propaganda material instead of real Dharma. I guess having the best lama in the world does not save oneself from samsara, nor does it equal to spiritual progress.

In a way, however it is, his writing might be technical, but if you really read about what he writes, it is very very dry. It feels as though he is writing a textbook and not a Dharma book. There is no feeling, but only facts and probably some opinions or two or it. IN Helmut Gassner's article, he mentions that the Dalai Lama will first give the person a hug and then persuade them to give up Dorje Shugden. HHDL's hug is very powerful and it floods the person with love and it can be very overwhelming, according to Helmut Gassner, and perhaps this is what made bob turn tail as he thought that this is what he is looking for and this is what he wants. But in doing so, he becomes the Dalai Lama's lapdog instead of a scholar that helps bring people's minds to Buddhism and to dispel the ignorance of people. In a way, it is sad to see how people degenerate due to incorrect motivation.

[thor]

I find this more entertaining than plausible. I mean Bob Thurman crawling across the floor begging for Dhogyal empowerment? Does that really sound real?

How do you know Bob crawled across the floor? Canada or whoever said so? Just on the basis of one person saying so and it becomes so? Gotta think harder people. I don't buy it. Sorry. 

Very quick to criticise, and it seems you didnt read the article properly before condemning the information. Well, what will you say next?

All I have to say on this matter is - if Robert Thurman can now criticise and condemn the practice of a deity he once begged for, no wonder he didnt get the initiation on the grounds of his fickle mind! His lamas - domo geshe rinpoche and gelek rinpoche would have the foresight to know what was coming, and to deny him.

Dorje Shugden's practice has a few requirements, among which are Guru Devotion, practice of the Lam Rim, holding one's vows and so forth. I dont think Bob Thurman is a good example of any of the above, seeing as he is a politically-motivated, disrespectful, fickle-minded ex-monk. Dorje Shugden is too special to be held by the likes as he.

[Ensapa]

Very quick to criticise, and it seems you didnt read the article properly before condemning the information. Well, what will you say next?

All I have to say on this matter is - if Robert Thurman can now criticise and condemn the practice of a deity he once begged for, no wonder he didnt get the initiation on the grounds of his fickle mind! His lamas - domo geshe rinpoche and gelek rinpoche would have the foresight to know what was coming, and to deny him.
If he can do this to Dorje Shugden whose empowerment he once begged for, he could easily do this to the Dalai Lama and turn against him if and when he does not get what he wants. I think he would do something like that despite having written so many buddhist books as instability is more or less, pervasive. he clearly does not have what it takes to have any Buddhist initiations for that matter, and perhaps the Lamas who confer them to him is doing it just to plant seeds in his mindstream.

Dorje Shugden's practice has a few requirements, among which are Guru Devotion, practice of the Lam Rim, holding one's vows and so forth. I dont think Bob Thurman is a good example of any of the above, seeing as he is a politically-motivated, disrespectful, fickle-minded ex-monk. Dorje Shugden is too special to be held by the likes as he.
Being that and a scholar is not that bad if he kept his facts neutral and showed a good example, and have unbiased facts that are not twisted stories. Unfortunately he is part of the team of crusaders that writes lies about Dorje Shugden and the passes it for the truth. That is one of the most horrible thing that a scholar can ever do as it creates confusion, fear and promotes ignorance. Very sad that a scholar has degenerated into this.

What more is there to say about bob thurman after his interesting expose? I dont think that he has come up with any new info about DS, or any new Buddhist titles recently either. I doubt that China will allow him to enter China after what happened. He can only go to Dharamsala to do his research and nowhere else. This will be interesting to see if he would actually come up with his next title anytime soon..

[DharmaSpace]

Bob Thurman begged for Dorje Shugden empowerment not surprising at all, I mean before the ban got enforced anyone who is anyone and everyone did the Dorje Shugden practice happily and on large scale too. The lama that Robert Thurman asked the Dorje Shugden empowerment from would have known that if things got too hot for Robert Thurman he would have cracked and given up the practice. For the monks to deny his the chance to practice Dorje Shugden is to save Bob Thurman from serious broken samaya later. How compassionate were his teachers to deny him the life entrustment.

Not very convinced about his scholastic abilities, there is overwhelming evidence to support Dorje Shugden is enligthened and a Buddha and he chooses to look at the criticism of Dorje Shugden.

[Aurore]

Dear All

I have been thinking of the Robert Thurman’s issue for several days now.  It is very intriquing to see that this person who have been an authoritative figure, academics, and wrote several books about Tibetan Buddhism pictured DS practitioners in such a way.  He, as a scholar sshould have used his senses to investigate the matter better.

However, this is my view of the whole situation.  Please do not let this man’s statements about DS practitioners completely destroy his credibility and undermine his other work.

I think most people would have expected a more accurate explanation regarding his statements on Shugden from a such a high profile scholar. If he cannot present the statement he's made with proofs, what made us think it will not not destroy his credibility on his other work?

Wouldn't it be better to not include this material at all rather than to present it without clear evidence with the possibility of causing more confusion from his readers? As a Buddhist scholar, why create more problems rather than to lessen them? For some personal reasons maybe?

[Ensapa]

I think most people would have expected a more accurate explanation regarding his statements on Shugden from a such a high profile scholar. If he cannot present the statement he's made with proofs, what made us think it will not not destroy his credibility on his other work?
It is more like people automatically believe whatever a scholar says as they assume that scholars will always be accurate. But the sad part is, bob thurman is not and by this he misled a lot of people with is lies about Dorje Shugden. His words may sound very convincing to ordinary people, but on  further investigation, his facts are not accurate and biased, and very misleading. It's a very sad thing for a scholar to do: mislead people instead of educating people.

Wouldn't it be better to not include this material at all rather than to present it without clear evidence with the possibility of causing more confusion from his readers? As a Buddhist scholar, why create more problems rather than to lessen them? For some personal reasons maybe?
That is what all scholars should do, but in thurman's case, he decided to be biased and presented warped facts. It is an extremely sad thing to do and it is very, very dishonorable in more ways than one as a scholar. thurman is the shame of scholars worldwide. Scholars are supposed to enlighten people not mislead people. Why is bob doing something like that? Sad, sad indeed.

We can see that perhaps, Thurman did what he did as he had a grudge against Dorje Shugden because he could not get his practice, so he decided to turn against it. Well, after what he says, he will never ever get Dorje Shugden. He lost his chance and he will never get it again. Too bad for him...the more people he misleads, the worse it gets for him.

[Big Uncle]

Did you guys read that he would beg Domo Geshe Rinpoche for Dorje Shugden sogtae but he would not be given the initiation. The Lama knew how unstable his mind is. He may be a good scholar but that doesn't mean he is a great practitioner and what's more, he knew the power of Dorje Shugden and he knew what Dorje Shugden is all about and he knew of the great Lamas who practiced Dorje Shugden.

That means that he knew everything about Dorje Shugden and if he knew, why would he be so outspoken against Dorje Shugden? I think he is just bitter about the rejection and he is projecting his frustration over. That's just very sad for him. He will feel like he had placed his foot in his mouth once the ban on Dorje Shugden gets lifted.

[Ensapa]

Did you guys read that he would beg Domo Geshe Rinpoche for Dorje Shugden sogtae but he would not be given the initiation. The Lama knew how unstable his mind is. He may be a good scholar but that doesn't mean he is a great practitioner and what's more, he knew the power of Dorje Shugden and he knew what Dorje Shugden is all about and he knew of the great Lamas who practiced Dorje Shugden.

That means that he knew everything about Dorje Shugden and if he knew, why would he be so outspoken against Dorje Shugden? I think he is just bitter about the rejection and he is projecting his frustration over. That's just very sad for him. He will feel like he had placed his foot in his mouth once the ban on Dorje Shugden gets lifted.

I do admit that it was really funny to imagine him begging Domo Geshe Rinpoche, and getting on the floor, begging for Dorje Shugden's sogtae, and then reading on the tripe he wrote about Dorje Shugden, but really, there are more bob thurmans around and we have to be ready to face them. There are people on the net proudly proclaiming that they were once Gelugpa, but they moved on to another lineage for whatever reasons. With little experience and results in their own Dharma practice, they would resort to quoting from texts without much experiential knowledge. If Milarepa could not get any results from practice after he ran away from Marpa, and then seek one of Marpa's students as a teacher, how could any of these people who gave up on their 'original' lineage get any attainments? After knowing the truth about bob, I doubt that he would have any attainments at all either. So why do we listen to someone who has broken their samaya through and through?

If he can give up on Dorje Shugden so easily after learning of his benefits, then for sure he could have given up Buddhism just as easily when the time comes. There is no doubt about that. What struck me the most is that most people who gave up their lineage and who gave up Buddhism are not really educated about Buddhism in the first place and there are many things that they do not know about, but in bob's case, he is a scholar that should know better that Guru devotion is the key to success in tantric practice. By breaking it, there is nothing left for him.

[Aurore]

It would have been so wonderful if world's famous icons who embraces the Tibetan Buddhism would to speak positive of Shugden. Then fame can be turned into something beneficial.

Imagine if such a high scholar such as Thurman would to say and write good things about Shugden, it would have made a difference and clear a lot of people's doubts but instead Thurman chosed use his fame and credibility otherwise and worst to speak negative of Shugden. He is almost like Dalai Lama's shadow. I question if he is acting out of guru disciple relationship! However, I doubt it since he is one of the first Western monk to disrobe after a couple of years after being the first Western monk ordained by the Dalai Lama.

Thurman openly admits that he felt the Dalai Lama was strongly disappointed with him for disrobing. Maybe he is making amends by following the Dalai Lama's footsteps against Shugden?

[Ensapa]

It would have been so wonderful if world's famous icons who embraces the Tibetan Buddhism would to speak positive of Shugden. Then fame can be turned into something beneficial.

Imagine if such a high scholar such as Thurman would to say and write good things about Shugden, it would have made a difference and clear a lot of people's doubts but instead Thurman chosed use his fame and credibility otherwise and worst to speak negative of Shugden. He is almost like Dalai Lama's shadow. I question if he is acting out of guru disciple relationship! However, I doubt it since he is one of the first Western monk to disrobe after a couple of years after being the first Western monk ordained by the Dalai Lama.

Thurman openly admits that he felt the Dalai Lama was strongly disappointed with him for disrobing. Maybe he is making amends by following the Dalai Lama's footsteps against Shugden?

Sometimes, the fame that they get is not a result of their good karma. If being flippant can make us famous and acclaimed, then something is very wrong with that picture, dont you think so? So, perhaps, his fame will make him even more unstable and insecure in the near future. It would be nice if he had repent and changed his ways and be more stable now after he has aligned himself with the Dalai Lama, but if he can betray Dorje Shugden like that, he can easily do it to the Dalai Lama too. When the ban is lifted, he will look extremely stupid. I dont know if he would stay by the Dalai Lama when that happens, or he would join another lineage and write nasty things about the Dalai Lama when that happens. Unstable people will always remain unstable and there is always no telling on what they will do.

In 4 years' time, lets see how dear bob will react to the lifting of the ban. Will he give up Buddhism alltogether? will he desert the Dalai Lama. We will see when the time comes.

[hope rainbow]

I think most people would have expected a more accurate explanation regarding his statements on Shugden from a such a high profile scholar. If he cannot present the statement he's made with proofs, what made us think it will not not destroy his credibility on his other work?

Wouldn't it be better to not include this material at all rather than to present it without clear evidence with the possibility of causing more confusion from his readers? As a Buddhist scholar, why create more problems rather than to lessen them? For some personal reasons maybe?

The facts are there for all to see:

1.
- someone takes the monk's vows
- then renounces them

2.
- later, the same person requests for DS in initiation and is refused it
- he requests again and again and is never granted it
- that person then turns things around and campaigns against the very Buddha that he wanted to surrender to in the first place??

3.
- the lamas did not need to be clairvoyant to understand that there was a flippancy not suitable to a recipient of a DS initiation. The monk episode was good enough a sign.
- what happened after that person realized that he would not be grated the initiation shows that the lamas were RIGHT not to initiate him.
- and indeed the karma suffered would have been enormous if that person was to receive the initiation and renounce it a few years later.