Latest from Dalai Lama: Whatever fierce spirit you choose is up to you

[Ensapa]

I agree with Thor and Mana that HHDL had in fact toned down this stance against Dorje Shudgen. This is definitely a good sign for people who propitiates this enlightened dharma protector, as this would mean SOON, CTA would not have any excuse to ill-treat or side-line DS practitioners anymore.
The good thing about this is, it is not just the CTA that will not have an excuse to ill treat the Dorje Shugden practitioners, but other centers around the world also will no longer have an outlet to enact their jealous and schismatic actions against Dharma centers that are not on their 'side' and  thus will cut down the avenue for people to do negative karma and actions. This is the part of the ban being lifted that I like the most. 
As for those who follow their Guru's advise to practise DS, we just continue doing what we do under the holy mandala of the sacred protector.
There is no harm in Guru devotion. The Guru can only lead us to do something good and not something  negative. If we have been following our teachers all along and have not been political in this matter, then we will reap the rewards when the ban is actually lifted. If we choose to defect from our teacher or lineage due to this issue, the only one that will be at loss is us. In other words, the best way is to follow whatever the person we have accepted as our teacher has taught us.

Are we looking at the first sign of the ban being lifted
most probably. The ban will be lifted soon and soon more and more signs will appear.

If it is one thing i do see, it is that the ban and HHDL's stance towards it is considerably weakening compared to the previous times. Lets just hope that this trend will continue until the ban is lifted.

[dsnowlion]

Due to the pressure of the Indian Govt who is truly a democratic rule, the Dalai Lama had to tone down on the negative talk against Shugden.

Dalai Lama never comments on Hinduism. But it is clear the protectors Dalai Lama worships such as Six Armed Mahakala steps on Ganesha a central deity within Hinduism. The Buddhist texts mention Shiva, Brahma and Vishnu (and avatars) are gods in the desire realm who are below the Buddha and worshipping them will not bring nirvana. In fact they can create disharmony as they are jealous gods. But Dalai Lama can show respect towards Hinduism (which he should) and never comment on these gods in India. If he did, there would be a furor and huge protests throughout India.

So Dalai Lama has to be careful and heed the advice of the Indian govt who has provided him with a safe haven for five decades now.

The Indian govt is aware of the negative ban against Shugden by Dalai Lama and has advised Dalai Lama to tone it down even though to the Indians, it is an internal Tibetan religious affair.

Do you find the Indian Govt in the right with their stance, or should speak up more and publicly? Are they afraid to speak up?

Mana

The Indian Govt has every right to speak up and I think they would not be afraid to do so in a nice subtle way out of respect for His Holiness, about the Ban. This is because this ridiculous Ban does not serve anyone positively and not only does it affect the Tibetans, it also affects everyone because it creates a message that religious discrimination is allowed and allowed on holy mother India who is a democratic nation. If you live on someone elses land... it is obvious and automatic that you abide by their laws isn't it? You cannot recreate your own rules and laws. What if an Indian citizen practices Dorje Shugden? Will he also be rejected and condemned, will the Tibetans throw stones and not allow them to but supplies??? Would they dare do that to an "Indian" person? They obviously would not... so why is it different for a Tibetan man who practices Dorje Shugden? Where's the logic to that. Yes it does affect everyone if we look at the bigger picture.

And isn't the new Tibetan Govt in exile like democratic? If so then why are they not following democratic laws? Basically the law to Ban Dorje Shugden (though not written) should be officially be written off. The CTA should apologized to their people for causing such disharmony and such discrimination. This would not only garner more support for the CTA... it would make their whatever little nation stronger instead of being a laughing stock to the Chinese Govt.

[dsnowlion]

He stressed, ‘' In fact the Buddha counseled his followers to examine what he taught and to adopt it only if they felt it was worthwhile, not simply out of respect for him''.

Sounds to me His Holiness change of tone and stance has begun... though some may be confused but from what I am reading here... His Holiness is in fact saying you do not need to listen to His every word just because He is someone the world respects. Sounds to me a way of calming the minds of the Dalai Lama fanatics to stop pointing their fingers at other (i.e. Dorje Shugden practitioners)
 
On the second day of the teachings His Holiness talked of Dolgyal (or Shugden). He said that he stopped propitiating the spirit many years ago after extensive investigations had revealed it was improper to do so.
 
His Holiness encapsulated his thinking on the subject of Dolgyal by saying, ‘'anyone who has kept up the practice of Dolgyal out of ignorance should not have any fear about giving it up if they heed his advice.

On the other hand, he said, whatever fierce spirit you choose is up to you, all His Holiness asks is that such persons do not take vows or empowerments from him.''

A contracdiction here... or is he simply trying to say He cannot lift the ban because doing so would prove to the world He and all those against Dorje Shugden practice did a huge boo boo and caused tremendous suffering to their own people... that would be a huge shame and create a negative impact for the Tibetans as a whole and would caused them to lose respect and support from so many...

Hence the 2nd statement... just "do not take vows or empowerments from him". And if you have your Guru why do you even need to take vows from him??? There is also His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche and "His Holiness Pabongkha Rinpoche" who are at their prime... so very Gelugs... there is no real need to take any vows/empowerments from His Holiness is there? In reality it really does not matter does it when you have your own Guru?

Sounds good to me

[Ensapa]

The Indian Govt has every right to speak up and I think they would not be afraid to do so in a nice subtle way out of respect for His Holiness, about the Ban. This is because this ridiculous Ban does not serve anyone positively and not only does it affect the Tibetans, it also affects everyone because it creates a message that religious discrimination is allowed and allowed on holy mother India who is a democratic nation. If you live on someone elses land... it is obvious and automatic that you abide by their laws isn't it? You cannot recreate your own rules and laws. What if an Indian citizen practices Dorje Shugden? Will he also be rejected and condemned, will the Tibetans throw stones and not allow them to but supplies??? Would they dare do that to an "Indian" person? They obviously would not... so why is it different for a Tibetan man who practices Dorje Shugden? Where's the logic to that. Yes it does affect everyone if we look at the bigger picture.

And isn't the new Tibetan Govt in exile like democratic? If so then why are they not following democratic laws? Basically the law to Ban Dorje Shugden (though not written) should be officially be written off. The CTA should apologized to their people for causing such disharmony and such discrimination. This would not only garner more support for the CTA... it would make their whatever little nation stronger instead of being a laughing stock to the Chinese Govt.

From how i see it, its very simple: if HHDL is allowed to ban Dorje Shugden, then the other religious traditions of India will see it as a green light to ban each other out from their traditions. Hinduism is quite complex by itself, and worshippers of Shiva are not always pleased with brahma or vishnu's followers. If HHDL can ban Dorje Shugden, surely it would also mean that some Hindu temples can follow suit and ban the followers of another deity from their temple as well. It's a domino effect that HHDL's ban might have on the harmony of Hinduism in India because one temple might say that they now ban a certain deity from a temple from now on, since HHDL is also banning Shugden, we should also ban xx deity from entering or  being mentioned in our temple. Can you imagine the chaos that would cause? It might not make sense now, but do not underestimate the power of influence. Therefore, the indian govt has to ask HHDL to tone down the ban before it affects hinduism.

CTA was never democratic. It is just a lie made up to get the Westerners on their side. Sadly, lies do not last long.

[Ensapa]

I reread this thread and I found something interesting that the Dalai Lama has sort of said:

He stressed, ‘' In fact the Buddha counseled his followers to examine what he taught and to adopt it only if they felt it was worthwhile, not simply out of respect for him''.

On the second day of the teachings His Holiness talked of Dolgyal (or Shugden). He said that he stopped propitiating the spirit many years ago after extensive investigations had revealed it was improper to do so.

His Holiness encapsulated his thinking on the subject of Dolgyal by saying, ‘'anyone who has kept up the practice of Dolgyal out of ignorance should not have any fear about giving it up if they heed his advice.

On the other hand, he said, whatever fierce spirit you choose is up to you, all His Holiness asks is that such persons do not take vows or empowerments from him.

Now, from the point of view of a Dalai Lama groupie, would I think it is worthwhile to condemn a Dharma protector that I barely know about, or would it make more sense for me to check out what this Dharma protector is first before I start to condemn? But if that is the logical steps, then why is it that so many Dalai Lama groupies accept HHDL's proclamation against Dorje Shugden without any proof or logic? They only refer to the Dalai Lama's website for that and even that also, the website fails to provide any concrete or historical evidence of Dorje Shugden's negativity. Everything is based on hearsay on that website.

So, why are the Dalai Lama's own followers not following him?

[Dondrup Shugden]

The Dalai Lama contradicts in so many of His talks when it comes to Dorje Shugden.  In this instance, Dalai Lama said that anyone can continue to worship the spirit (DS) but can not longer receive vows nor empowerments from him.

Therefore is this permission for free will or a threat by and large? After all the Dalai Lama is the head of Tibetan Buddhism!!!! Think!

[Q]

I think it is unfair for the Dalai Lama to on one hand say that whatever we choose is okay, but at the same time, he keeps talking bad about Dorje Shugden and all the lineage lamas. How is that a choice then, especially for someone that know how important it is the Dalai Lama and also the lineage lamas is to their spiritual practice.

It is just like saying it is fine for you to choose other religions like christianity, islam etc... but you know what, your prophets were all wrong. But it is your choice, you have freedom to do so.

See, in this context, that statement just sound really nonsensical

[grandmapele]

"On the fourth and final day His Holiness the Dalai Lama gave the long life empowerment associated with White Tara (a female deity in Tibetan Buddhism), and symbolically, she is regarded as the feminine aspect of Avalokitesvara.
 
Amongst other things, His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama went onto discuss the importance of religious tolerance in all parts of the world-not least within the different Tibetan Buddhist traditions and his hope that current tolerance would prevail everywhere."

Please have tolerance and lift the ban. What is sauce for the goose is also sauce for the gander!