Is Dharmawheel.net really against Shugden?

[Losang_Tenpa]

This is a forum is managed by people who are more European/US centric and it is a shame that though the West represents free speech and freedom of choice will do something so small to restrict discussions about Dorje Shugden or organisations that are actively promoting Dorje Shugden. Thats how I know this ban is wrong it makes people have the fear to all free speech to prevail on the internet.

If people are so sure people who practice Dorje Shugden are part of cults or demon worshippers, then all the more the moderators of this forum should allow freedom to debate and discuss this issue for the benefit of all. Don't they feel compassion for the people who are supposedly 'deluded'.

Forums are also a nice place to try to raise awareness of other projects going on in the world related to our Protector, monasteries, and monks.

I tried to post a link to the new Sponsor a Monk Project but it was deleted. Not sure, maybe my connection made some mistake and the link did not work.

Here is the link:
http://sanghajewels.org/


Thank you for everything you do.

 

[diamond girl]

An excuse for being unstable indeed. I know a few like that who tradition hop before mastering even the basic much like calming the mind and training in Lamrim to stabilise their attitude in general.

And oh, get this, a nyingma mod that was in esangha commented that my Guru was very possessive when I told him that my Guru advocated us to only take up one teacher and one lineage unless we have learnt and mastered all that we can with our current teacher because it makes sense. The same nyingma mod is also still a mod in dharmawheel.

I really dont know why is it that they seem to think that the more teachers you have, the merrier, and also that if a teacher does things you dont like or dont feel comfortable with, esangha actually encouraged people to leave their teachers. i was like..wow when i read about it. Shouldnt people recount the story of Milarepa during this time? Should these people not tell this person  not to give up? it was in the context of that this person suffered from depression, and the Guru said things to provoke the depression. This person saw that act as harmful and everyone else chimed in. What if the Guru's actions is to actually help remove this person's depression, and by discouraging this person from going to his Guru, this person will have to suffer from his depression for a longer and more intense period in the future?

This is the degeneration of Dharma, ladies and gentlemen.

On this encouragement of Lama hoping I can only say this: Would you leave school when you are not happy with your Biology teacher? If you are studying to be a doctor will you go study with a Literature teacher just because you like the Literature teacher? When a person changes school or even majors he/she loses time, not to mention direction. Obviously, when these people encourage people to hop from centres and Lamas they have no direction and love wasting time... How pathetic... Just sad that innocent people are deluded by these fools.   

[Big Uncle]

I don't think Dharmawheel.net is against Dorje Shugden. They have already allowed a lot of Dorje Shugden threads on their forum. Instead of issuing derogatory or defamatory statements about the lineage, practice and Lamas, they have locked the threads.

I think that is totally fine because people can still read about the comments made. I think the forum has made itself a little more neutral that way and in this way, they were better than eSangha. This makes the Dorje Shugden forum the one of the few forums in cyberspace that one can come to for a one-stop resource on all things Dorje Shugden. 

[yontenjamyang]

From the evident and comments provided, it seems that they are promoting what they themselves think as right and not in a very dharmic way. For example, they talk about tantra which is not suppose to be discussed in public on a detailed way as only the initiated can have this knowledge. Otherwise, it may cause harm to the uninitiated.
On Shugden, they do not allow discussion on this.  However, referring to Dorje Shugden as gyalpo makes me uncomfortable and it is derogatory. However, they are just repeating how the Dalai Lama refers to the Protector. Sad. My conclusion is that they are predominantly Nyingma (nothing wrong with that) and they do not follow Guru devotion or encourage others to do so. As I understand it, Guru Devotion is the number practice of all Vajrayana buddhist.  Ironically, they "follow" the Dalai Lama. Wonder, if one day someone said something negative about the Dalai Lama, would  they "leave" the Dalai Lama. Wonder if the Dalai is actually their Guru?

Well, if you leave the Guru, it creates the cause for one not to have a Guru in the future or to leave Gurus one after the other. Looks like that is the future for them. I pray for them. May they have Wisdom.

[Ensapa]

From the evident and comments provided, it seems that they are promoting what they themselves think as right and not in a very dharmic way. For example, they talk about tantra which is not suppose to be discussed in public on a detailed way as only the initiated can have this knowledge. Otherwise, it may cause harm to the uninitiated.
They have a tantra section that is hidden from view, but a dzogchen section that is in open view that is quite huge, with close to 20k posts, while the other sections have very little posts in comparison. In many Dzogchen texts, it is very clear that there is nothing much about dzogchen to discuss on and its more of an experiential practice. So why are they talking about it so much?

On Shugden, they do not allow discussion on this.  However, referring to Dorje Shugden as gyalpo makes me uncomfortable and it is derogatory. However, they are just repeating how the Dalai Lama refers to the Protector. Sad. My conclusion is that they are predominantly Nyingma (nothing wrong with that) and they do not follow Guru devotion or encourage others to do so. As I understand it, Guru Devotion is the number practice of all Vajrayana buddhist.  Ironically, they "follow" the Dalai Lama. Wonder, if one day someone said something negative about the Dalai Lama, would  they "leave" the Dalai Lama. Wonder if the Dalai is actually their Guru?
From here, is it not clear already what their intentions are? It is very clear to me that they are very against Dorje Shugden in this forum as most of the mods are Nyingma based, but to go all the way and prohibit the teachings of Dorje Shugden Lamas that have not talked about Dorje Shugden is just a bit too far fetched and sectarian. Their faith in the Dalai Lama is not exactly because they have investigated, but its based on blind faith as they cannot explain many things when asked.

Well, if you leave the Guru, it creates the cause for one not to have a Guru in the future or to leave Gurus one after the other. Looks like that is the future for them. I pray for them. May they have Wisdom.
I just hope that they would stop exhibiting sectarian attitudes when telling others to not be sectarian by not demonizing Dorje Shugden practitioners.

Dharmawheel may not be as bad as esangha used to be, but it is slowly heading towards that direction. I really do not hope to see Dharmawheel end up that way, but they have to adopt a more Buddhist attitude and become less fixated on what buddhism should or should not be to represent Buddhism well.

[beggar]

I don't think Dharmawheel.net is against Dorje Shugden. They have already allowed a lot of Dorje Shugden threads on their forum. Instead of issuing derogatory or defamatory statements about the lineage, practice and Lamas, they have locked the threads.

I think that is totally fine because people can still read about the comments made. I think the forum has made itself a little more neutral that way and in this way, they were better than eSangha. This makes the Dorje Shugden forum the one of the few forums in cyberspace that one can come to for a one-stop resource on all things Dorje Shugden.

Well, I'm not sure that locking the threads is such a good thing either. It feigns a kind of liberal approach by "allowing" the subject to be discussed, but not in its totality. If you're locking a thread, you're saying very clearly that you disallow any further comments or discussions on this. Why? Also, when threads are locked, are there clear explanations as to why they have locked the threads? And is it a fair enough reason?

Yes, so some people feel this is something that should not be practiced. But a forum is about discussion, sharing information and knowledge so people can learn mutually - so shouldn't this be discussed so people can be better educated about the issue (both good and "bad") and then come to their own conclusions. Simply locking a thread doesn't give any room for fair discussion, nor closure, nor the space for people to make their own informed decisions.

[Ensapa]

I don't think Dharmawheel.net is against Dorje Shugden. They have already allowed a lot of Dorje Shugden threads on their forum. Instead of issuing derogatory or defamatory statements about the lineage, practice and Lamas, they have locked the threads.

I think that is totally fine because people can still read about the comments made. I think the forum has made itself a little more neutral that way and in this way, they were better than eSangha. This makes the Dorje Shugden forum the one of the few forums in cyberspace that one can come to for a one-stop resource on all things Dorje Shugden.

I beg to differ. According to their TOS:

4. Discussion of Controversial Practices and Traditions

In light of certain contentious practices and traditions that exist within the scope of Vajrayana Buddhism, the Dharma Wheel website will abide by instructions given to practitioners by the Dalai Lama in regards to discussion of controversial issues, practices, and images. For more information on these instructions, please refer to this synopsis and collection of advice from important lamas, or the Dalai Lama's words on this matter. As explained in this informative talk from the Lama Yeshe Wisdom Archive, there are many teachers who have advised in this way before the Dalai Lama. Although the Terms of Service provide specific guidelines surrounding the New Kadampa Tradition, Dharma Wheel volunteer staff will have the right amend or delete any post which they judge may lead to disharmony. This applies to related topics and organizations, including monasteries and lamas currently supporting Shugden practice.

Dharma Wheel ToS are prioritized as to not exclude individual preference of view, but to refrain from the public discussion of controversial topics which detract from productive exchange within the forum.

As the staff recognizes the gravity of such subjects, their implications, and how these discussions affect forum atmospheres, it is the position of the administration that there are better suited environments outside of this Mahayana/Vajrayana internet forum to productively address such complex matters.

That is very clear to me that they choose to be politically correct. What else is there to say about this matter?

[Tenzin Gyatso]

Just because some forums do not accept dhogyal does not mean they are against Gelug or Gelug doctrines. Let's not jump assumptions. Dhogyal is not a Gelug practice or a practice accepted by any sects past or present. It is a negative practice that is eliminated. It is not a Buddhist practice. So if various sites wish not to speak about it would perhaps mean they don't want to waste time on non-dharma subjects?

Just a thought. 

[harrynephew]

I don't think Dharmawheel.net is against Dorje Shugden. They have already allowed a lot of Dorje Shugden threads on their forum. Instead of issuing derogatory or defamatory statements about the lineage, practice and Lamas, they have locked the threads.

I think that is totally fine because people can still read about the comments made. I think the forum has made itself a little more neutral that way and in this way, they were better than eSangha. This makes the Dorje Shugden forum the one of the few forums in cyberspace that one can come to for a one-stop resource on all things Dorje Shugden.

Well, I'm not sure that locking the threads is such a good thing either. It feigns a kind of liberal approach by "allowing" the subject to be discussed, but not in its totality. If you're locking a thread, you're saying very clearly that you disallow any further comments or discussions on this. Why? Also, when threads are locked, are there clear explanations as to why they have locked the threads? And is it a fair enough reason?

Yes, so some people feel this is something that should not be practiced. But a forum is about discussion, sharing information and knowledge so people can learn mutually - so shouldn't this be discussed so people can be better educated about the issue (both good and "bad") and then come to their own conclusions. Simply locking a thread doesn't give any room for fair discussion, nor closure, nor the space for people to make their own informed decisions.

I do agree with beggar that their stance are pretty much more liberal comparing to other Tibetan Buddhist forums or websites. There isn't any need  to be too over alarmed about discussing Dorje Shugden on such forums but not to barge into the forum like some religious fanatic.

The middle way approach, provide information and let the rest of them handle what they think is the best way to handle the information. Dharma should be adopted with an open mind so that the mind can mature with Dharma, nothing is set in stone except for the Vinaya

[Ensapa]

I don't think Dharmawheel.net is against Dorje Shugden. They have already allowed a lot of Dorje Shugden threads on their forum. Instead of issuing derogatory or defamatory statements about the lineage, practice and Lamas, they have locked the threads.
Its more or less, a form of hypocrisy of sorts. They knew what and how esangha ended up with and what they have done in the past, and to not appear to be the bad guy, they pretend to be open and accepting when they are not. At the end, they only want to appear as the good guy even though they know perfectly well what they need to do to be 'good'.

I think that is totally fine because people can still read about the comments made. I think the forum has made itself a little more neutral that way and in this way, they were better than eSangha. This makes the Dorje Shugden forum the one of the few forums in cyberspace that one can come to for a one-stop resource on all things Dorje Shugden.
Esangha started with thread locking, before it escalated to the deletion of posts that did not agree with their moderators. Things can sometimes escalate very quickly, as when someone who is power hungry managed to convince esangha to ban the talk of Dorje Shugden and NKT, this fuelled this person's hunger for authority, and he got what he wanted, at the expense of many newcomers who only wanted to learn about Buddhism but suddenly they become heretics and are spreading wrong Dharma and must be stopped. It all begins with something as simple as silencing someone or a certain topic.

Well, I'm not sure that locking the threads is such a good thing either. It feigns a kind of liberal approach by "allowing" the subject to be discussed, but not in its totality. If you're locking a thread, you're saying very clearly that you disallow any further comments or discussions on this. Why? Also, when threads are locked, are there clear explanations as to why they have locked the threads? And is it a fair enough reason?
Hypocrisy is what makes them lock the thread, but then again it is very clear that they do not allow the discussion of Dorje Shugden related topics in their T&C, citing that it might upset certain parties. The logic here that I dont understand is, is it okay to upset another party by disallowing discussion on Dorje Shugden then? What is it with this double standard?

Yes, so some people feel this is something that should not be practiced. But a forum is about discussion, sharing information and knowledge so people can learn mutually - so shouldn't this be discussed so people can be better educated about the issue (both good and "bad") and then come to their own conclusions. Simply locking a thread doesn't give any room for fair discussion, nor closure, nor the space for people to make their own informed decisions.
There's always freesangha's approach to move it to the danger forum where people who do not wish to read about it can avoid that section. That makes more sense. Banning discussion of Dorje Shugden in the whole forum is like banning peanut butter in a city just because a few people are allergic to it: it does not make sense.

Dharmawheel is against Dorje Shugden. Freesangha is not. Dharmawheel bans the discussion of DS and lamas practicing DS in totality, Freesangha allows discussions in a private area. With regards to Dharmawheel's reasoning to ban Dorje Shugden from its forums, does it hold up? After seeing freesangha, no, it does not.

[Zach]

I don't think Dharmawheel.net is against Dorje Shugden. They have already allowed a lot of Dorje Shugden threads on their forum. Instead of issuing derogatory or defamatory statements about the lineage, practice and Lamas, they have locked the threads.
Its more or less, a form of hypocrisy of sorts. They knew what and how esangha ended up with and what they have done in the past, and to not appear to be the bad guy, they pretend to be open and accepting when they are not. At the end, they only want to appear as the good guy even though they know perfectly well what they need to do to be 'good'.

I think that is totally fine because people can still read about the comments made. I think the forum has made itself a little more neutral that way and in this way, they were better than eSangha. This makes the Dorje Shugden forum the one of the few forums in cyberspace that one can come to for a one-stop resource on all things Dorje Shugden.
Esangha started with thread locking, before it escalated to the deletion of posts that did not agree with their moderators. Things can sometimes escalate very quickly, as when someone who is power hungry managed to convince esangha to ban the talk of Dorje Shugden and NKT, this fuelled this person's hunger for authority, and he got what he wanted, at the expense of many newcomers who only wanted to learn about Buddhism but suddenly they become heretics and are spreading wrong Dharma and must be stopped. It all begins with something as simple as silencing someone or a certain topic.

Well, I'm not sure that locking the threads is such a good thing either. It feigns a kind of liberal approach by "allowing" the subject to be discussed, but not in its totality. If you're locking a thread, you're saying very clearly that you disallow any further comments or discussions on this. Why? Also, when threads are locked, are there clear explanations as to why they have locked the threads? And is it a fair enough reason?
Hypocrisy is what makes them lock the thread, but then again it is very clear that they do not allow the discussion of Dorje Shugden related topics in their T&C, citing that it might upset certain parties. The logic here that I dont understand is, is it okay to upset another party by disallowing discussion on Dorje Shugden then? What is it with this double standard?

Yes, so some people feel this is something that should not be practiced. But a forum is about discussion, sharing information and knowledge so people can learn mutually - so shouldn't this be discussed so people can be better educated about the issue (both good and "bad") and then come to their own conclusions. Simply locking a thread doesn't give any room for fair discussion, nor closure, nor the space for people to make their own informed decisions.
There's always freesangha's approach to move it to the danger forum where people who do not wish to read about it can avoid that section. That makes more sense. Banning discussion of Dorje Shugden in the whole forum is like banning peanut butter in a city just because a few people are allergic to it: it does not make sense.

Dharmawheel is against Dorje Shugden. Freesangha is not. Dharmawheel bans the discussion of DS and lamas practicing DS in totality, Freesangha allows discussions in a private area. With regards to Dharmawheel's reasoning to ban Dorje Shugden from its forums, does it hold up? After seeing freesangha, no, it does not.

The reason why Freesangha can be lacking in Tibetan Buddhists at times is because they all got the huff when Freesangha refused to kowtow to ostracising Shugden practitoners the Ignorant left and the open minded compassionate Buddhists stayed to converse with one and other like sensible human beings.

[Ensapa]

The reason why Freesangha can be lacking in Tibetan Buddhists at times is because they all got the huff when Freesangha refused to kowtow to ostracising Shugden practitoners the Ignorant left and the open minded compassionate Buddhists stayed to converse with one and other like sensible human beings.

It doesnt matter that many Tibetan Buddhists happen to also be people who would believe in anything some high Lama has thrown to them. They only believe in big names and big titles but not the smaller ones that are equally qualified...why? because they are seeking something else in Buddhism and the reason why they joined Buddhism was to look for some sort of self vilification, a sense of belonging and for a sense that they want to be different from Christianity. So they will gobble up whatever that they can get their hands on to, and sadly as long as the person they meet sounds convincing, they will follow that person and listen to that person and I have seen this happen in more ways than one and many times, in fact. All it takes is for them to encounter the right person and for them to understand what the Dharma is really about and they will most probably be on the right path. Many of these newbies sound like confused people and over the years, they become experienced confused people and mislead more people away from what is right...experienced in confusing people because they have no teacher and no lineage and whatever teachers they have, they abandon the teachers whenever someone says something bad about them.

These people really need to learn to have logic. They need to learn from ground up about what is Buddhism about, and to have a firm foundation of the basics. Many newbies are misled by equally confused people who are experts in being confused and teaching things and information that are not supposed to be shared to newbies instead of emphasizing on the basic foundations (which they are probably bad at, which is why they do not want to talk about it) and they gather around these forums to make themselves feel less bad about it.

[DharmaSpace]

From where I is, this sounds like Dharmawheel.net they do not welcome any Dorje Shudgen practitioners.

http://brahmaloka.wordpress.com/2012/12/02/dharma-wheels-administrators-sent-a-message-to-me/comment-page-1/#comment-44

Well Dorje Shugden people do not deserve compassion or a voice to air their grievances at all? If we are so wrong lets us do it the old fashion civilised way. To debate and fight it out in the forums. Feels like they are acting like certain faiths, in order to subdue your mind, we will not let anything that can tempt you be shown up. Lets already wear a shoe already not cover the world with leather please.

[Ensapa]

From where I is, this sounds like Dharmawheel.net they do not welcome any Dorje Shudgen practitioners.

http://brahmaloka.wordpress.com/2012/12/02/dharma-wheels-administrators-sent-a-message-to-me/comment-page-1/#comment-44

Well Dorje Shugden people do not deserve compassion or a voice to air their grievances at all? If we are so wrong lets us do it the old fashion civilised way. To debate and fight it out in the forums. Feels like they are acting like certain faiths, in order to subdue your mind, we will not let anything that can tempt you be shown up. Lets already wear a shoe already not cover the world with leather please.

Dharmawheel has already started its slow descent into failure and misinformation, like esangha did. Esangha previously had draconian rules about Dorje Shugden and the ban on Dorje Shugden gave the moderators more and more authority and courage to ban topics that they did not like from the forum until entire schools were removed and even ordained members from the forum of other traditions that did not agree were banned entirely from the forum. From what I can see, Dharmawheel is following that path and they will repeat what will happen to esangha. They are unable to provide an explanation on why they support the Dalai Lama because they know nothing about Dorje Shugden and they have failed to investigate it properly. Think about it. If the moderators are well aware of this issue and they have fully investigated this issue, why would they be so afraid of people discussing about Dorje Shugden in their forums?

[Zach]

From where I is, this sounds like Dharmawheel.net they do not welcome any Dorje Shudgen practitioners.

http://brahmaloka.wordpress.com/2012/12/02/dharma-wheels-administrators-sent-a-message-to-me/comment-page-1/#comment-44

Well Dorje Shugden people do not deserve compassion or a voice to air their grievances at all? If we are so wrong lets us do it the old fashion civilised way. To debate and fight it out in the forums. Feels like they are acting like certain faiths, in order to subdue your mind, we will not let anything that can tempt you be shown up. Lets already wear a shoe already not cover the world with leather please.

Oh Yes Ive seen plenty of messages like this from certain Moderators

here is an example.

"I am going to be brutally honest with you.

I am going to start by saying that I would say "welcome to Dharma Wheel" but you've been stirring shit from day 1! Like didn't you learn anything from what happened at free-sangha?

Why are you here? Isn't the sandbox at free-sangha big enough for you all? I mean everybody left so that you and your friends could have free reign, so what are doing here? It was you and your friends actions that caused free-sangha to degenerate and implode, now you wanna do the same thing here? Why? What do you gain from this?

Everybody knows your agenda, so grow up and stop playing innocent.

Nobody benefits from your actions, especially not you (quite the opposite really).
frak' sad situation! Really sad!"