Is Dharmawheel.net really against Shugden?

[thaimonk]

Do you see prejudiced and biased views allowed or not allowed on this site in regards to Wisdom Buddha Shugden?

http://www.dharmawheel.net/index.php

[Ensapa]

They are against Dorje Shugden. As much as I hate to admit, when esangha came down as a result of the cumulative negative karma they created not only by criticizing Dorje Shugden but any other lama or tradition that does not conform to their view, dharmawheel was started and  the bulk of the people from that form went to dharmawheel. Therefore, we can see many familiar faces that we have seen in esangha in dharmawheel. The unfortunate part is that dharmawheel has a very strict non Dorje Shugden policy and to top it off, they have an extremely tiny gelug section while the dzogchen section is huge. No matter how one sees it, it can be safe to say that this forum leans greatly towards the nyingmas and perhaps to protect their sentiments, pay less attention to gelug and suppressed talk about Dorje Shugden. I personally found that unnecessary because Dorje Shugden is a gelug afair, even if the other lineages might want to believe otherwise and start getting paranoid. If they are not gelug, they have no business in the gelug section in the first place, so why do they need to go in and get involved?

esangha's dark descent to its destruction started with them banning all talk of Dorje Shugden from their forums and declaring them as a cult back then. Then it included NKT in the banning list. Several mods used the issue to gain power over the minds of the people there with their technical knowledge and did dirty tricks like leaving an 'authoritative' statement on Dorje Shugden on a thread, and the locking it so that nobody can rebut them because they know that their points are just a smokescreen. From there, they gained the courage to criticize other lamas, starting with Geshe Michael Roach, and it expanded to other lamas, and eventually other lineages that does not agree with the mod's point of view, who has now became the king of the forum. With esangha gone, he is now just a regular poster on dharmawheel. His sidekick got into intense financial problems and has disappeared from the internet altogether. He begged for help on dharmawheel and stopped visiting there altogether eventually. So you see, esangha's ruin started with the banning of the talk of Dorje Shugden, and it seems that dharmawheel is following the same path. Lets hope dharmawheel realizes and does the right thing before that happens.

[Losang_Tenpa]

I quit esangha long before it bit the dust. The first time I heard one of the moderators slander Kyabje Pabongkha I quit visiting the site.
Moderators are supposed to be unbiased and impartial, regardless of their personal views. Esangha was used as a platform for a few of the moderators to spew their sectarian agendas.

[Ensapa]

I quit esangha long before it bit the dust. The first time I heard one of the moderators slander Kyabje Pabongkha I quit visiting the site.
Moderators are supposed to be unbiased and impartial, regardless of their personal views. Esangha was used as a platform for a few of the moderators to spew their sectarian agendas.

yes I remember that part! One of the moderators made extremely nasty comments about Pabongkha, Trijang and Zong Rinpoche in one post and then left it there, IN THE GELUG SECTION. NOBODY CHALLENGED THIS POST FOR A WHOLE YEAR. The most ridiculous thing about this was that the post was not even posted by a Gelug practitioner, it was posted by a Nyingma practitioner who obviously was obviously delusional in his Dharma practice as I remember someone asked the same poster what are the results of Dharma practice, he said he had to wait for signs to appear. He was talking about things in a tantric context in a general forum, which means that he broke his samaya to not discuss about tantra in public. In the general context, results and progress of Dharma practice can be seen by how the mind calms down and is less angry and how people around us in general feel better around us. He failed the acid test, and after that thread, it was very clear to everyone that he had issues to deal with.

It was the overall culture there in esangha that caused a lot of misunderstandings in Buddhism and caused a lot of people to have misunderstandings in Dharma. They encouraged blind faith, where the certain moderator is always right and anyone who opposed him is wrong. I remember that someone asked about where can they find a Lama that can do Phowa for them when they have died,  someone else posted that instead of worrying about death, they could have put in effort to practice Dharma instead. Someone else posted about another Lama that can perform Phowa and that person thanked them. He completely ignored the 'harder' advice of actually practicing the Dharma. Is this Buddhist? Well, this is the kind of degeneration that is courtesy of esangha.

[Zach]

Dharmawheel no doubt harbours alot of negativity. You are not allowed to discuss certain things unless you make it expressly critical the mods like to Ignore their own Terms of service most of the time it is maybe better if instead of engaging to observe, Ive already indulge in to much negativity since being on there and the problem with being in an atmosphere as such it rubs of on your postings and destroys the purposes of engaging in a Dharma forum and instead turns it into a place to accumulate negative karma. Time to cease I think, Whats the point of engaging there when there are other groups around specifically for your sects practice of Dharma where you can disscuss and understand the finer points as you would in a proper Sangha without resorting to disagreements over differences of practice or sectarian opinion ( which are deeply rooted no matter how non sectarian one claims to be ) 

E-Sangha mrk 2 lets see how long it can last.

[Ensapa]

Dharmawheel no doubt harbours alot of negativity. You are not allowed to discuss certain things unless you make it expressly critical the mods like to Ignore their own Terms of service most of the time it is maybe better if instead of engaging to observe, Ive already indulge in to much negativity since being on there and the problem with being in an atmosphere as such it rubs of on your postings and destroys the purposes of engaging in a Dharma forum and instead turns it into a place to accumulate negative karma. Time to cease I think, Whats the point of engaging there when there are other groups around specifically for your sects practice of Dharma where you can disscuss and understand the finer points as you would in a proper Sangha without resorting to disagreements over differences of practice or sectarian opinion ( which are deeply rooted no matter how non sectarian one claims to be ) 
Freesangha in comparison is doing much better than Dharmawheel. They do allow talk about Dorje Shugden but it is in a section where newbies and unrelated people cannot access. That is a safer and smarter way on dealing with the issue, if you would want to ask me instead of a blanket ban. If Buddhism is all about removing ignorance, why would you perform acts to increase it? Very, very contradictory to the Buddha's teachings. The Buddha encouraged the resolution of doubts via discussions, not via shutting them off. Dharmawheel might be "big", but a huge amount of the posts there are in the Dzogchen section and not anywhere else. This should tell us what that forum really is for.

E-Sangha mrk 2 lets see how long it can last.
If they take the path of esangha, not long.

The forum has strict rules on talking negatively about other lamas, but preventing people from talking about Dorje Shugden opens the way for criticism against lamas that do not subscribe to their view. Dharmawheel is trying to learn from esangha's implosion, but sadly they are repeating the exact same moves as they are. The overlord of esangha, namdrol is allowed to post there and he made more than 5000 posts to date...but not allowed to be a moderator yet the negative energies from his postings are all over the place....the forums will degenerate unless they lift the gag order.

[Losang_Tenpa]

This Namdrol character once said something like 'It is only a matter of time before Western Dharma students realize how flawed Je Tsongkhapa's presentation of emptiness is'. Wish I had the exact quote but it is long gone I am afraid.

How arrogant that he places his own wisdom above such an acclaimed Master as Je Tsonkhapa.

This is the same guy who blamed Mad Cow Disease on the proliferation of Dorje Shugden practice in England!
 

[Ensapa]

This Namdrol character once said something like 'It is only a matter of time before Western Dharma students realize how flawed Je Tsongkhapa's presentation of emptiness is'. Wish I had the exact quote but it is long gone I am afraid.

How arrogant that he places his own wisdom above such an acclaimed Master as Je Tsonkhapa.

This is the same guy who blamed Mad Cow Disease on the proliferation of Dorje Shugden practice in England!
 

It is very clear that this person is anti Gelug, and he has misled many people off the path. There is also something very off about his personality and it was as if he has some sort of borderline personality disorder to the point where he was very insecure about what he believed in and he would counter that by imposing his beliefs on others. He was the same guy who stirred the Dorje Shugden issue out of proportion and when he realized that he could never win in a debate about Dorje Shugden, he simply locked the thread and prevented people from replying or countering his 'statements'. When he realized that he could get away with it as at that time no other mods were as knowledgable as him, he convinced esangha to ban NKT people and talk of Dorje Shugden. When that worked, he proceeded to criticize other masters that did not subscribe to his view and that grew into traditions that did not subscribe to his view. he banned monks from other traditions from the forum even! Wow! A layperson overriding the sangha. It all begun from the banning of Dorje Shugden. And Dharmawheel is repeating that exact same mistake.

I do remember him saying something like this, and it was quite shocking because he said it in the Gelug forum. His blatant sectarianism was surprisingly tolerated in esangha. Although he has stuck strictly to answering technical questions in Dharmawheel, keeping him there is a huge mistake as his negative energies and imprints will seep into that forum and rot it from the core. He does have scriptural basis on this figure called gorampa who was critical of Tsongkhapa's teachings, and wrote rebuttals to his works, however gorampa was not famous but non gelugs see him as a great teacher. He lived during Tsongkhapa's time but did not engage in debates with Tsongkhapa but snipe at Tsongkhapa with his treatises. Good scholar? hmmmm. I doubt it.

[Zach]

Namdrol ( Malcom Smith ) Is no doubt very knowledgeable but like most TB Buddhists is very bias when it comes to certain issues which is no surprise seeing as it comes down from the masters.

Its not strange why the Gelug forum doesn't have alot of activity considering the dislike of Je Tsongkhapa in general by other Buddhist sects his teachings of Prasangika POV and non inclusion of Dzogchen in his formation, Why even one of the monks there has spoken and said how the supposed Gelug monastery's are these days when it comes to teaching apparently Sera's main Yidam is Hayagriva which comes from the Nyingma. So it is no doubt that this non sectarianism buisness extends only so far as wiping out Je Tsongkhapa's presentation and view to be replaced with Sutrantika and a mixture of other lineages practices.

[Ensapa]

Namdrol ( Malcom Smith ) Is no doubt very knowledgeable but like most TB Buddhists is very bias when it comes to certain issues which is no surprise seeing as it comes down from the masters.

Its not strange why the Gelug forum doesn't have alot of activity considering the dislike of Je Tsongkhapa in general by other Buddhist sects his teachings of Prasangika POV and non inclusion of Dzogchen in his formation, Why even one of the monks there has spoken and said how the supposed Gelug monastery's are these days when it comes to teaching apparently Sera's main Yidam is Hayagriva which comes from the Nyingma. So it is no doubt that this non sectarianism buisness extends only so far as wiping out Je Tsongkhapa's presentation and view to be replaced with Sutrantika and a mixture of other lineages practices.

If HHDL would like to talk about uniting all of tibet and the Buddhist sects together, he should really start with the question: what is your problem with Tsongkhapa? I have noticed that many western buddhists who are non gelug tend to make negative comments against Tsongkhapa. Tibetans that I have met does respect Tsongkhapa as a great saint...so why is there a disparity that developed? Was it that the teachers of these western students taught them to disparage Lama Tsongkhapa in private or is it that these western students thought that Gelug is too mainstream and therefore rebelling against it would do good? Or that, the Gelugs were the oppressors of the other traditions so they are evil? I dont know, but either way, blatant sectarianism is blatant sectarianism and to deny that it is would really be a sad thing, would it not be? Why does nobody work on that but deny, cover and defend endlessly?

the Rime that was started in the 18th century and the rime now are two entirely different things. Rime back then was about a symbiosis of traditions who were not Gelug to make sure that their teachings would be preserved. It was a trading of lineages to make sure that none of them would die off. Its main intentions was to preserve the teachings irregardless of tradition. These days, it's just an excuse for an unstable practitioner to hop from tradition to tradition whenever things get tough for them, and when people tell then to stick to one tradition, they say that the idea is very sectarian. They think that the more Gurus and initiations one can procure, the better when in fact, they are supposed to master what they have first before moving on. That's what Rime is these days: an excuse for being unstable.

[Zach]

Namdrol ( Malcom Smith ) Is no doubt very knowledgeable but like most TB Buddhists is very bias when it comes to certain issues which is no surprise seeing as it comes down from the masters.

Its not strange why the Gelug forum doesn't have alot of activity considering the dislike of Je Tsongkhapa in general by other Buddhist sects his teachings of Prasangika POV and non inclusion of Dzogchen in his formation, Why even one of the monks there has spoken and said how the supposed Gelug monastery's are these days when it comes to teaching apparently Sera's main Yidam is Hayagriva which comes from the Nyingma. So it is no doubt that this non sectarianism buisness extends only so far as wiping out Je Tsongkhapa's presentation and view to be replaced with Sutrantika and a mixture of other lineages practices.

the Rime that was started in the 18th century and the rime now are two entirely different things. Rime back then was about a symbiosis of traditions who were not Gelug to make sure that their teachings would be preserved. It was a trading of lineages to make sure that none of them would die off. Its main intentions was to preserve the teachings irregardless of tradition. These days, it's just an excuse for an unstable practitioner to hop from tradition to tradition whenever things get tough for them, and when people tell then to stick to one tradition, they say that the idea is very sectarian. They think that the more Gurus and initiations one can procure, the better when in fact, they are supposed to master what they have first before moving on. That's what Rime is these days: an excuse for being unstable.

An excuse for being unstable indeed. I know a few like that who tradition hop before mastering even the basic much like calming the mind and training in Lamrim to stabilise their attitude in general.

[Ensapa]

An excuse for being unstable indeed. I know a few like that who tradition hop before mastering even the basic much like calming the mind and training in Lamrim to stabilise their attitude in general.

And oh, get this, a nyingma mod that was in esangha commented that my Guru was very possessive when I told him that my Guru advocated us to only take up one teacher and one lineage unless we have learnt and mastered all that we can with our current teacher because it makes sense. The same nyingma mod is also still a mod in dharmawheel.

I really dont know why is it that they seem to think that the more teachers you have, the merrier, and also that if a teacher does things you dont like or dont feel comfortable with, esangha actually encouraged people to leave their teachers. i was like..wow when i read about it. Shouldnt people recount the story of Milarepa during this time? Should these people not tell this person  not to give up? it was in the context of that this person suffered from depression, and the Guru said things to provoke the depression. This person saw that act as harmful and everyone else chimed in. What if the Guru's actions is to actually help remove this person's depression, and by discouraging this person from going to his Guru, this person will have to suffer from his depression for a longer and more intense period in the future?

This is the degeneration of Dharma, ladies and gentlemen.

[DharmaSpace]

This is a forum is managed by people who are more European/US centric and it is a shame that though the West represents free speech and freedom of choice will do something so small to restrict discussions about Dorje Shugden or organisations that are actively promoting Dorje Shugden. Thats how I know this ban is wrong it makes people have the fear to all free speech to prevail on the internet.

If people are so sure people who practice Dorje Shugden are part of cults or demon worshippers, then all the more the moderators of this forum should allow freedom to debate and discuss this issue for the benefit of all. Don't they feel compassion for the people who are supposedly 'deluded'.

[Losang_Tenpa]

This is a forum is managed by people who are more European/US centric and it is a shame that though the West represents free speech and freedom of choice will do something so small to restrict discussions about Dorje Shugden or organisations that are actively promoting Dorje Shugden. Thats how I know this ban is wrong it makes people have the fear to all free speech to prevail on the internet.

If people are so sure people who practice Dorje Shugden are part of cults or demon worshippers, then all the more the moderators of this forum should allow freedom to debate and discuss this issue for the benefit of all. Don't they feel compassion for the people who are supposedly 'deluded'.

[Ensapa]

This is a forum is managed by people who are more European/US centric and it is a shame that though the West represents free speech and freedom of choice will do something so small to restrict discussions about Dorje Shugden or organisations that are actively promoting Dorje Shugden. Thats how I know this ban is wrong it makes people have the fear to all free speech to prevail on the internet.

If people are so sure people who practice Dorje Shugden are part of cults or demon worshippers, then all the more the moderators of this forum should allow freedom to debate and discuss this issue for the benefit of all. Don't they feel compassion for the people who are supposedly 'deluded'.

If they have actually studied and applied the teachings, these people would have no time to indulge themselves in this Dorje Shugden issue. In fact, many of the more advanced Dharma centers, irregardless of tradition simply do not talk about Dorje Shugden at all in their centers. Nobody discusses about how sectarian Dorje Shugden is, or how bad or how negative he is in those centers. They would rather focus on core teachings of their own tradition rather than anything else. It is only in Dharma centers that are filled with laypeople and having very few ordained members who are experienced in the teachings that they busy themselves with talk of Dorje Shugden. I have checked out many different Dharma centers before and I have observed this phenomena going on. When you are applying the actual teachings, the actual questions are very little, if you just study the teachings from an intellectual level, there will be a lot of irrelevant questions that will be asked. There is a reason why these tantric teachings are not to be discussed except between Guru and student, or between Vajra siblings.

Forums like these actually increase delusions than dispel it. They allow discussions of what is not allowed to be discussed (on tantras, mahamudra and dzogchen) and disallow what it is that are supposed to be discussed (logical reasonings, historical facts, controversial issues) and looks like dharmawheel is going the way of the esangha...