Author Topic: Interesting debate on Dorje Shugden, elsewhere on the net  (Read 5210 times)

Ensapa

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Interesting debate on Dorje Shugden, elsewhere on the net
« on: August 25, 2012, 12:42:36 PM »
Dear all, here is an interesting debate that I have found on the net regarding Dorje Shugden. From here, we can see how the Dalai Lama's crusaders are at work. This article is a bit long, but it is extremely interesting as Helmut Gassner himself has replied. I will cut off parts that do not talk about Dorje Shugden.

Quote
Debate on a Dharamsala report regarding demonstrations in Karze (Ganzi), Kham

On Nov 10, 1999, a report about a demonstration in Karze (Ganzi) was issued by the Tibetan government-in- exile in Dharamsala and duly picked up by World Tibet Network News (WTN). In the report, Dharamsala linked the demonstration to a doctrinal dispute about worship of a deity called Dorje Shugden. (The Dalai Lama has advised Buddhists not to worship Dorje Shugden, and this has created controversy among Tibetan buddhists.) It seemed to me that Dharamsala was using the news from Karze as an opportunity to unfairly slam its opponents on the Shugden issue. I posted a comment to this effect on TIBET-L, a listserve. My posting generated some stormy debate, as reproduced below.
Eighty Tibetan demonstrators jailed in Tibet

Department of Information and International Relations, Dharamsala, Nov 10

Confirming reports of a demonstration on 31 October in the eastern Tibetan area of Karze, sources from Tibet said the Chinese security personnel have so far detained some 80 demonstrators. The demonstration, joined by 3,000 local Tibetans, was to demand the release of spiritual teacher Geshe Sonam Phuntsok, his attendant Shotruk and Agya Tsering of Karze Monastery, who had been arrested on 24 October.

The Chinese authorities claimed that the arrest of the three Karze monks was linked to bombings and independence poster campaigns, which have rocked the Karze area in recent months. However, sources in Tibet believe that the arrest was sparked off by Karze Monastery's refusal to back supporters of the spirit known as Dorje Shugden, whose worship is discouraged by His Holiness the Dalai Lama.

The reports say that Karze Monastery snubbed an offer of gifts and invitation for dinner from a Shugden supporter, Thupten, who is a monk from Rabten Choeling Dharma Centre in Switzerland and frequent visitor to Karze. Thupten had apparently made offerings to the monks of Karze Monastery and invited the senior spiritual figures to a dinner. However, the Karze monks rejected his offers to show their displeasure with Rapten Choeling's refusal to follow His Holiness the Dalai Lama's advice against the worship of the Dorje Shugden spirit. The Switzerland-based dharma centre is one of the strongest supporters of Shugden worship.

Over the past two years, the Chinese authorities and Shugden supporters have backed each other's efforts in order to undermine the international image of His Holiness the Dalai Lama. The authorities have also arrested a number of Shugden critics in Tibet.

 

Here is my original complaint to the 340-odd subscribers of TIBET-L:
Dear Tibet-L,

I have some good friends in Karze and Dargye Monastery, so I've been following recent developments there closely. Knowing the town and people as I do, I've had doubts about some details given in news reports, but kept silent. But the latest news bulletin (appended) is just over the top. The last paragraph implies that followers of Dorje Shugden, a deity whose worship has been banned by the Dalai Lama, are somehow in bed with Chinese authorities! This seems to me a blatant attempt by the Department of Information and International Relations in Dharamsala to discredit Shugden followers. I don't think that's appropriate content for a news release, and it casts doubt on all releases originating from this source. How can we find out what's really going on out there, if Dharamsala won't give it to us straight?

Pamela Logan

This comment of mine incited further postings, and things got a bit hot. See below for highlights:

Jane Ardley, Nov 12:
Re. Chinese authorities and Shugden supporters/communities - see World Tibet Network News 19 January 1999 "Chinese embassy first secretary visits supporters of Shugden in South India with a member of Shugden group".

The title of the news piece says it all!

Jane Ardley

Hi Jane, (this by private email, not on the listserve)
Thanks for the heads up on this. I have not been following the Shugden issue, so I'm really quite ignorant about it. Why on earth would Shugden followers want to ally themselves with the Chinese? Such an alliance would totally discredit themselves and their cause in the eyes of other Tibetans. Is there something I'm missing here?

Hmmmm.....I haven't checked it out, but.....did this report also originate from the "Department of Information and International Relations" in Dharamsala?

Pam

Note: I have since checked it out. The report is posted here, and it WAS issued by the same source as the other one, so cannot be considered independent corroborating evidence of a Shugden/China tie.

Thangka painting is all very fine. I am not impressed with your project "world's biggest thangka." (he is referring to this project, which is reported on the Kham Aid website and to the mailing list of Kham Aid supporters).
That wasn't my project. I had nothing to do with it. Some Tibetans decided to do it, they got a bank loan, and they went ahead. Most probably, the bank loan will never be paid back. So the money was "free." I've seen Tibetans get loans for monastery repair and painting, and for school improvements. Why Chinese banks lend money to organizations like these who have no collateral whatsoever is beyond me. It's symptomatic of imminent collapse of China's banking system. Perhaps you find that something to cheer about, but I don't think the results will be good for Tibetans.
What is the point? Does that mean there is religious freedom in Tibet?
There is limited religious freedom, so long as it does not cross the line and challenge Beijing's rule. For some people, it's enough. For others, it is not.
No, I think it is just for show and to boost your ego and fool the world, not to mention waste of money and time, which could have been put to better use. I am sure Tibetans in India can do a bigger and better Thnagka but for lack of money and a surfeit of common sense to know where their priority lay.
You can tell that to the Tibetans who led the giant thanka project! One might even go further, and ask why farmers and herdsmen give most of their wealth to monasteries, thus keeping themselves in poverty. This still goes on; in fact, it's epidemic.
Looks like you don't really know about the Shugden going ons.
You're right about that. The Shugden problem is way outside my purview. I don't understand the issue very well at all. It really has very little impact on my work, because most of the people I deal with are not Gelukpa. I will say that I think it's very unfortunate that Tibetans are divided over the Shugden issue, because it has harmed unity.
First of all, His Holiness the Dalai Lama never "banned" the worship of Shugden. The word "banned" is used by the Shugden supports. You used the word "banned" too. Are you a shugden follower or supporter? If not, why did you feel the need to bring this topic up? Are you an instrument of the Chinese Government - to spread conflict in the Tibetan community?
That accusation is ridiculous.
If you know anything or possess a bit of common sense, you'll know His Holiness can't ban anything. He is in exile for crying out loud! He doesn't have an army or police to force any ban on anything. He is our spiritual and political leader. It is the duty of a leader to lead us and advise us on all matters that we consider him our leader of. Do you know what the main motive of the worship of shuden? If you don't know ask the first Tibetan, you meet. And if that Tibetan tells you the truth, you will understand why His Holiness the Dalai Lama advised us, his followers, to cease worshiping shugden. Pamela, you are either too naive or another just spoke in the Chinese propaganda machine.
The question of whether the Dalai Lama can ban anything is peripheral, but if you want to hear my opinions on it, I suggest that we continue the discussion outside this public forum.
Respectfully,

Pamela Logan

Cynthia Yellowhair:
In response to Pamela Logan's response Please continue the discussion IN THE PUBLIC FORUM as it is the only way for some of us who are very interested in events to hear various opinions on those events. I agree that accusations and angry retorts will get nowhere but sometimes it leads to more productive debate and gets to the root of that anger.

Jeff Cobb:
The root of all anger is from the three poisons of ignorance, aggression, and desire. We are afraid of the unknown, and try to push away those things that we believe we do not want or need, or are threatening in some way.

Much of Pam's defense was right on target. And I think her reaction about the shugden-Communist Chinese connection was a little more knee-jerk than she might have been aware. The Tibetan diaspora always sees Communist Chinese collusion in anything that disrupts their unity, and sometimes there is evidence that that is the case, as noted in WTN quote on this issue from our friend in England.

Are you really 40, Pam!? Wouldn't have guessed it. I had you in the early 30's, tops.

Jeff Cobb

Michael She:
Dear Cynthia Yellowhair and other Tibetan friends,

I am really not sure about the Karze events, but I pay attentions to the Tsering Dorje's response. I also do not think that H.H. the Dalai Lama will ban any things.

We must be alert that there are many secret agents from the Communist China try to disunite the Tibetan and their friends.

As I am a Chinese, I really do not know if I should support the Tibetan Independence or the authentic autonomy of Tibet. However, I do not believe the Communist Government of China. From 1950 to the present, the Beijing Government still do not give the authentic autonomy to the Tibetan. Moreover, the Beijing Government always oppress the Tibetan. It cause the separatist activities more active.

In Hong Kong, it is obvious that the Hong Kong is become more Chinesization and not internationalization. I am disappointed. Particularly of the base of the rule of law is partially destroyed now.

Regards,

Michael She

On Nov 14, WTN published a letter pointing out some errors in Dharamsala's original news item. The writer, Dipl.Ing. Helmut Gassner, used to be the German translation for His Holiness the Dalai Lama from 1979-1995. Although he does not identify himself as such, it appears that he is a Shugden supporter.
Dear friends,

please allow a few corrective statements to the report published by World Tibet Network News of Wednesday, November 10, 1999.

Eighty Tibetan demonstrators jailed in Tibet (DIIR

(Source His Holiness the Dalai Lama's exile government's Department of Information and International Relations, Dharamsala)

The article suggests that the recent arrest of Geshe Sonam Phuntsok in the eastern Tibetan area of Karze "was sparked off by Karze Monastery's refusal to back supports of the spirit known as Dorje Shugden, whose worship is discouraged by His Holiness the Dalai Lama", after "Karze Monastery snubbed an offer of gifts and invitation for dinner from a Shugden supporter, Thupten, who is a monk from Rabten Choeling Dharma Centre in Switzerland and frequent visitor to Karze."

Ven. Gen Thubten is a senior monk of Sera Je monastic university and resident teacher at the Rabten Choeling Dharma Center in Switzerland since 1983. Since 1987 he has visited his elder sister and relatives in the district of Karze THREE times, with this year's visit lasting from June 1st till August 30th.

During his stay, Ven. Gen Thubten participated in the inauguration of the renovated Dhargye monastery under Gyalten Rinpoche. At the occasion he offered the monastery six carpets and a picture of His Holiness the Dalai Lama with His Holiness' two tutors, Kyabje Ling Rinpoche and Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche. The monastery gladly accepted the gifts.

During his stay, Ven. Gen Thubten did NOT visit Karze monastery, as falsely stated in the Dharamsala report. He did NOT make any offerings that were not accepted, as falsely stated in the report, and he did not NOT invite any "senior spiritual figures for dinner" from either monastery, as also falsely stated in the Dharamsala report.

This report has not only been publicly posted on World Tibet Network News, but is also being actively distributed to various addresses by the Geneva office of His Holiness the Dalai Lama's exile government. It should be obvious, that this report is just one more effort of His Holiness the Dalai Lama's exile government to mar followers of Dorje Shugden as Chinese collaborators, taking blunt lies to unlimited extents.

Dipl.Ing. Helmut Gassner

Jeff Cobb:
Looks like your smoking gun, Pam.

]

November 14
Dear Tibet-L,

Regarding my original posting on the report of arrests in Karze, it WAS a knee-jerk response (as several of you have suggested) arising from frustration at the poor quality of reporting by Dharamsala on the incident. I'm sure those Tibetans on this list who have seen reports about trouble in your home towns back in Tibet, and have desperately wanted to know if friends and family were involved, can sympathize with my feelings. I just want to know the facts, and not have to wade through insinuations about unrelated issues.

Now that Shugden followers have published a rebuttal to the accusations made in the report, I feel emboldened to add my own criticisms. They arise because I know Karze town, and it's not large I would guess the population to be about 10,000 people, of whom maybe one-third are Chinese. So I am doubtful that 3,000 people would have been in the demonstration--after all, some Tibetan inhabitants are elderly or children, a larger number intimidated or apolitical, and a few actually pro-Chinese. Even if people came in from the surrounding countryside, 3,000 seems a bit high.

I'm even more skeptical of the figure of 20,000 given for the security forces--two for each Karze inhabitant! How could a demonstration last for thirty minutes in the face of such an overwhelming police presence? This figure defies common sense.

Lastly, whoever wrote the phrase "Chinese security forces" in the first report overlooked the fact that many policemen and soldiers stationed in the prefecture are ethnic Tibetan. I don't know the percentages, but of the four or five Karze County police officers I have met during trips there, ALL were Tibetan. (I don't know the officials in Karze County; but in neighboring Derge County, all top posts in the government, including the Communist Party Secretary, are held by Tibetans! I think that this is more the exception than the rule, but it does show that Tibetans are not completely powerless in their homeland.)

Now I don't mean to say that Dharamsala was trying to deliberately mislead anyone. They probably put out the information just as their informant gave it to them. But I know Tibetans in part of the world, and they exaggerate all the time, saying (for example) that a building built 300 years ago is "a thousand years old." That's a cultural trait, and it's something you learn to take into account when you work out there.

The Department of Information and International Relations in Dharamsala should know this, and they should question their informants carefully, but since they are not (and do not pretend to be) an objective news source,it's therefore incumbent on us listeners to apply the proper filters.

More broadly, I believe that conflict resolution--whether we're talking about China-Tibet or Dalai Lama-Shugden--necessarily requires that the two sides first acknowledge that middle ground exists between them, and then try to move into it.

Perhaps there is a way people can worship Dorje Shugden without causing harm.

Perhaps there is even a way for Tibet to survive and flourish under some form of Chinese rule.

My writings in this and other forums, which have come under heavy criticism, are aimed at giving cause for hope of finding middle ground between Dharamsala and Beijing. By dislodging the former from its pedestal, and showing glimmers of light (however faint) emanating from the latter, the two can be brought closer.

True it's not easy to find a path to the center when the two sides are so vehemently opposed.

But don't you think the results might be worth it?

Sincerely,

Pamela Logan

Andrew Wang:
Pamela,

Thank you for your comments. I concur with your conclusion. And, in fact I find that your finding with regard to reports on numbers is similar to mine. Without a proper filter system in place, it seems that certain numbers which are in favor of the cause, were printed outright while other figures unfavorable to the cause were immediately taken off or wantonly labeled as antagonistic propaganda. Therefore, in order to get to the truth, cool head must prevail, and objective, non-biased academic approach may prove to be the only meaningful way for truth finding, which will build a foundation for any parties concerned in finding their common ground for meaningful dialogues..., even negotiations between Daramsala and Beijing.

Andrew

Dana Robyn Chubb:
Pamela Logen wrote

"Perhaps there is a way people can worship Dorje Shugden without causing harm."

Please be informed that the very reason it is not practiced by His Holiness the Dalai Lama is because it specifically does cause harm. Its practice goes against the non sectarian values that are imbued in a true Buddhist path, and therefore creates segregation among the schools. Furthermore it is specifically aimed at destroying the Nyingma school and teachings. Whereas the Nyingma and other schools have true integrity, being a true and pure path whose qualities are obvious to those who practice it, ( like the Kagyu, Drukpa Kagyu, Barom Kagyu, etc.) the people who worship this energy have in mind political power and supremacy which creates a "self cherishing" which, form my point of view, is antithetical to the Buddhist path itself.

On Nov 21, 1999, WTN published the following revised report. It downsizes the demonstration from 3,000 to 300 participants, and seems to be much more carefully researched than previous publications on this topic. Could this be a response to criticism by me and Mr. Gassner? In any event, it's a welcome improvement.
Demonstration in Sichuan follows arrest of religious leader (TIN) (also posted here)

Tibet Information News Update
17 November 1999

Hundreds of Tibetans took to the streets in protest in Kandze (Chinese:
Ganzi) county town, Kandze Tibetan Autonomous Prefecture (TAP), Sichuan
province two weeks ago following the arrest of a respected Buddhist teacher
and two other Tibetan monks. The arrests may have been linked to the
bombing of a small Tibetan medical clinic in a nearby village in early
October. At least 300 people are said to have joined the protest, which is
unprecedented in recent years and one of the largest in Tibetan areas since
the demonstrations in Lhasa in the late 1980s that led to the imposition of
martial law. Armed troops reportedly used tear-gas and guns to break up the
demonstration, and at least 50 Tibetans were detained.

The protest followed various acts of resistance by monks in the area to
hardline policies on religion and against the Dalai Lama, according to
unofficial reports from the region. Eleven monks from Dargye (known as
Dajin in Chinese) monastery, also in Kandze county, were reportedly
detained earlier this year after they painted pro-independence slogans on
the walls of the monastery. Some monasteries in the prefecture were also
said to have submitted a petition to the local authorities asserting their
right to continue studying Buddhism rather than attending Patriotic
Education sessions, according to an unconfirmed source. The region, which
is in the traditional Tibetan area of Kham, is known for being politically
restive.

The latest incident in Kandze reflects the loyalty among local people to
the teacher Sonam Phuntsog, a well-known scholar and Tibetan language
teacher in his forties who first studied as a monk at Dargye monastery.
Sonam Phuntsog's arrest on 24 October appears to be linked to the
authorities' concern over his influence in the area and over his apparent
loyalty to the Dalai Lama. Sonam Phuntsog, who is frequently referred to as
"Geshe" or "Gen" Sonam Phuntsog, although it is not clear whether he has
taken the official Geshe monastic exams, reportedly led prayers for the
Dalai Lama earlier this year. His assistant Sonam and another monk, former
political prisoner Agyal Tsering, were also arrested. The current
whereabouts of the three monks are not known.

One unofficial report indicates that they may be being blamed by the
authorities for a bombing that took place on 7 October in a village near
Kandze town. The bomb reportedly partially destroyed a small building that
was in the process of being converted into a medical clinic by a Tibetan
doctor who was said to be a devotee of the Shugden deity. The Dalai Lama
advised Tibetans not to worship the controversial "protector" deity in
1996. The motives of the bombing are not known, although there has
reportedly been some tension between devotees of Shugden in the area and
some Tibetans there who are opposed to worship of the deity.



I find this an excellent piece if we are to understand more on the anti Dorje Shugden people.

Source: http://alumnus.caltech.edu/~pamlogan/debate.htm

vajratruth

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Re: Interesting debate on Dorje Shugden, elsewhere on the net
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2012, 08:02:30 AM »

Thank you Ensapa for this post and yes it does go to show how dishonest the CTA is and how gravely misinformed the anti-Shugden people are. It is a pity because it would have been so easy to test the information given about Dorje Shugden against so much facts found on the internet.

Here is my original complaint to the 340-odd subscribers of TIBET-L:
Dear Tibet-L,

I have some good friends in Karze and Dargye Monastery, so I've been following recent developments there closely. Knowing the town and people as I do, I've had doubts about some details given in news reports, but kept silent. But the latest news bulletin (appended) is just over the top. The last paragraph implies that followers of Dorje Shugden, a deity whose worship has been banned by the Dalai Lama, are somehow in bed with Chinese authorities! This seems to me a blatant attempt by the Department of Information and International Relations in Dharamsala to discredit Shugden followers. I don't think that's appropriate content for a news release, and it casts doubt on all releases originating from this source. How can we find out what's really going on out there, if Dharamsala won't give it to us straight?

The paradox is that a country which is renowned for producing great Masters whose entire lives are dedicated to the study and practice of the truth, has as its exiled administrators, a bunch of liars and purveyors of false information.

How many times must the anti-Shugden people be caught out for the blatant lies that they tell and if there is any truth at all to what they allege Dorje Shugden to be, why then is there a need to lie? Why not produce evidence of the truth?

It is because there is no logical and spiritual basis for the ban that these sorry people have to resort to falsehood and being as incompetent as they are, their fibs are easily spotted. What the CTA needs to realize is that they are not telling fish tales to a bunch of suppressed serfs anymore but people who will go look up facts and think for themselves. The game was over long ago...its just that some people in Dharamsala are still fast asleep



Dana Robyn Chubb:
Pamela Logen wrote

"Perhaps there is a way people can worship Dorje Shugden without causing harm."

Please be informed that the very reason it is not practiced by His Holiness the Dalai Lama is because it specifically does cause harm. Its practice goes against the non sectarian values that are imbued in a true Buddhist path, and therefore creates segregation among the schools. Furthermore it is specifically aimed at destroying the Nyingma school and teachings. Whereas the Nyingma and other schools have true integrity, being a true and pure path whose qualities are obvious to those who practice it, ( like the Kagyu, Drukpa Kagyu, Barom Kagyu, etc.) the people who worship this energy have in mind political power and supremacy which creates a "self cherishing" which, form my point of view, is antithetical to the Buddhist path itself.

This is just plain outright disturbing. That someone can write with so much conviction on something when the correct information can be easily found all over the internet. Tibetan Buddhism has always enjoyed different schools, each practicing Buddhism with its own traditional approach. The Nyingmas are the oldest and the traditionalists, The Kagyus is famous for its Oral Tradition, the Sakyas represent the scholarly tradition and the Gelugs emphasize on logic and debates. These traditions or sects existed long before Dorje Shugden arose in fulfillment of a promise to Nechung to be the Uncommon Protector of Tsongkhapa's teachings. Each tradition has its own special protector and all practiced Buddhism based on their own tradition. There was NO segregation. The only segregation that exists today is that which was created by the Shugden ban and upheld by CTA. So if anyone should be blamed for any segregation it should be the office of HHDL.

As for Shugden practitioners being politically minded, the opposite is true. Pabongkha Rinpoche, one of the greatest Shugden practitioners and undoubtedly one of the most influential Buddhist Master of all time, was offered but rejected the Regency of the Dalai Lama. Trijang Rinpoche was against the unification of all the Buddhist schools to create one "single sect", presumably under a the supremacy of a Gelug head, choosing purity of tradition over political clout. And a lot of high Lamas such as Kundeling Rinpoche gave up positions and assets because they refused to play to the political tune of the Dalai Lama. Look at the all the writings in Ensapa's post and see who is in fact playing the propaganda game and you will see who the real politicians are. Certainly not Dorje Shugden practitioners. 


http://alumnus.caltech.edu/~pamlogan/debate.htm

Ensapa

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Re: Interesting debate on Dorje Shugden, elsewhere on the net
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2012, 01:17:10 PM »

Thank you Ensapa for this post and yes it does go to show how dishonest the CTA is and how gravely misinformed the anti-Shugden people are. It is a pity because it would have been so easy to test the information given about Dorje Shugden against so much facts found on the internet.
The anti-Shugden people rely on misinformation, lies and twisted information, not facts, which is why they are unable to answer when they are pressed on further. It is almost a delusional disorder,  the way that they believe about Dorje Shugden and Pabongkha. It is safe to conclude that some of these people suffer from some sort of delusional disorder as they are unable to discern facts when presented to them. Thus, we need to understand them.


The paradox is that a country which is renowned for producing great Masters whose entire lives are dedicated to the study and practice of the truth, has as its exiled administrators, a bunch of liars and purveyors of false information.
CTA still thinks that this is Tibet and that they control everything. Sadly, their methods do work on people who are naive and innocent, and who does not know any better and they turn to people who champion the Tibetan cause, blindly. It is very sad that the CTA officials are doing things that are barely considered Buddhist at all.


How many times must the anti-Shugden people be caught out for the blatant lies that they tell and if there is any truth at all to what they allege Dorje Shugden to be, why then is there a need to lie? Why not produce evidence of the truth?

The very fact that they endlessly and blindly champion their cause shows us that the dont exactly believe in what they are championing and that they are quite insecure about their beliefs about Dorje Shugden, which is why they need to impose it on others. This act is not very different at all from the Christian evangelists who spread their religion of God..or so they claim, but in reality they're spreading it due to their insecurity in their own beliefs.


It is because there is no logical and spiritual basis for the ban that these sorry people have to resort to falsehood and being as incompetent as they are, their fibs are easily spotted. What the CTA needs to realize is that they are not telling fish tales to a bunch of suppressed serfs anymore but people who will go look up facts and think for themselves. The game was over long ago...its just that some people in Dharamsala are still fast asleep

But the sad truth is, there are modern day serfs who would believe in anything something exotic has to offer. The only Dharma they know is all based on beliefs and when asked to explain further, they are unable to do so. If they could think for themselves, they would have stopped trying to police the beliefs of others.

This is just plain outright disturbing. That someone can write with so much conviction on something when the correct information can be easily found all over the internet. Tibetan Buddhism has always enjoyed different schools, each practicing Buddhism with its own traditional approach. The Nyingmas are the oldest and the traditionalists, The Kagyus is famous for its Oral Tradition, the Sakyas represent the scholarly tradition and the Gelugs emphasize on logic and debates. These traditions or sects existed long before Dorje Shugden arose in fulfillment of a promise to Nechung to be the Uncommon Protector of Tsongkhapa's teachings. Each tradition has its own special protector and all practiced Buddhism based on their own tradition. There was NO segregation. The only segregation that exists today is that which was created by the Shugden ban and upheld by CTA. So if anyone should be blamed for any segregation it should be the office of HHDL.

It is individuals like these that are truly sectarian. This person is a Nyingma practitioner and she blatantly criticizes other lineages as being political. It is absolutely horrifying to see how people can spew up so much baseless hate towards other traditions and yet nobody sees it as wrong, just because they are also against Dorje Shugden.


As for Shugden practitioners being politically minded, the opposite is true. Pabongkha Rinpoche, one of the greatest Shugden practitioners and undoubtedly one of the most influential Buddhist Master of all time, was offered but rejected the Regency of the Dalai Lama. Trijang Rinpoche was against the unification of all the Buddhist schools to create one "single sect", presumably under a the supremacy of a Gelug head, choosing purity of tradition over political clout. And a lot of high Lamas such as Kundeling Rinpoche gave up positions and assets because they refused to play to the political tune of the Dalai Lama. Look at the all the writings in Ensapa's post and see who is in fact playing the propaganda game and you will see who the real politicians are. Certainly not Dorje Shugden practitioners. 


Sometimes, people posting online can disregard facts to the point where they posts just sound fanatical and/or the ramblings of someone with mental issues. I find it quite disturbing sometimes that these people actually exist and they are left unchecked. Imagine all the damage that all these self proclaimed Buddhist scholars have created in their trail, and they are just left there.

http://alumnus.caltech.edu/~pamlogan/debate.htm

[/quote]

Isnt it disturbing how people can be on the internet sometimes? I personally find it so. Some people in the debate obviously suffer from some kind of mental disease, and it got intensified with biased and one sided Dharma books that are obviously sectarian in nature. Books and articles that bob thurman and george dreyfus would have wrote. From all the nasty articles against Dorje Shugden, there is a trail of misled people that follow. Who will take care of them now?

vajratruth

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Re: Interesting debate on Dorje Shugden, elsewhere on the net
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2012, 01:54:40 PM »


It is because there is no logical and spiritual basis for the ban that these sorry people have to resort to falsehood and being as incompetent as they are, their fibs are easily spotted. What the CTA needs to realize is that they are not telling fish tales to a bunch of suppressed serfs anymore but people who will go look up facts and think for themselves. The game was over long ago...its just that some people in Dharamsala are still fast asleep


But the sad truth is, there are modern day serfs who would believe in anything something exotic has to offer. The only Dharma they know is all based on beliefs and when asked to explain further, they are unable to do so. If they could think for themselves, they would have stopped trying to police the beliefs of others.


Wow Ensapa, you are right about modern days serfs. The old Tibetans were born into serfdom. They didn't have a choice. This one looks like she volunteered to be one and became trapped into intellectual servitude by a propaganda she doesn't understand. Too bad because the whole idea behind learning Buddhism is to free our minds and to refuse to be shackled by our baseless perceptions and prejudices. And it also looks like there a new lineage coming up called the "wind rumoured" teaching lineage. Ensapa...looks like your ear-whispered teachings has competition. You think?

« Last Edit: August 26, 2012, 01:56:57 PM by vajratruth »

Ensapa

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Re: Interesting debate on Dorje Shugden, elsewhere on the net
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2012, 10:15:11 AM »

Wow Ensapa, you are right about modern days serfs. The old Tibetans were born into serfdom. They didn't have a choice. This one looks like she volunteered to be one and became trapped into intellectual servitude by a propaganda she doesn't understand. Too bad because the whole idea behind learning Buddhism is to free our minds and to refuse to be shackled by our baseless perceptions and prejudices. And it also looks like there a new lineage coming up called the "wind rumoured" teaching lineage. Ensapa...looks like your ear-whispered teachings has competition. You think?

Actually, such things could be the result of a mental disorder as well. The writing of some of the debaters up there does not sound normal at all. It sounds more like a delusional disorder where they have a very firm belief in something that is not real and when people challenge that, they get hostile and angry. This is the more devastating effect on the ban: creating and causing people to have mental disease. Sometimes, it is not the actual belief itself that causes the mental disease but they act as a trigger for mental disease to manifest and take control of the minds of these unfortunate individuals.

Here's a brief writeup of it. Does it not match the disposition of some anti Dorje Shugden people?
Quote
Overview
Delusional disorder is an illness characterized by the presence of nonbizarre delusions in the absence of other mood or psychotic symptoms, according to the Diagnostic Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition, Text Revision (DSM-IV-TR).[1] It defines delusions as false beliefs based on incorrect inference about external reality that persist despite the evidence to the contrary and these beliefs are not ordinarily accepted by other members of the person's culture or subculture.

Nonbizarre refers to the fact that this type of delusion is about situations that could occur in real life, such as being followed, being loved, having an infection, and being deceived by one's spouse.

Delusional disorder is on a spectrum between more severe psychosis and overvalued ideas. Bizarre delusions represent the manifestations of more severe types of psychotic illnesses (eg, schizophrenia) and "are clearly implausible, not understandable, and not derived from ordinary life experiences".[1]

On the other end of the spectrum, making a distinction between a delusion and an overvalued idea is important, the latter representing an unreasonable belief that is not firmly held.[1] Additionally, personal beliefs should be evaluated with great respect to complexity of cultural and religious differences: some cultures have widely accepted beliefs that may be considered delusional in other cultures.

Unfortunately, patients with delusional disorder do not have good insight into their pathological experiences. Interestingly, despite significant delusions, many other psychosocial abilities remain intact, as if the delusions are circumscribed. Indeed, this is one of the key differences between delusional disorder and other primary psychotic disorders. However, the individual may rarely seek psychiatric help, remain isolated, and often present to internists, surgeons, dermatologists, policemen, and lawyers rather than psychiatrists. Despite this, their prognosis, while not good, is not as bad as other more severe disorders.

Case study
Mrs. K is a 39-year-old woman who was brought to the inpatient psychiatric unit by police after being arrested for trespassing on Mr. L’s property. Upon arrival, Mrs. K was adamant about being released, stating that she was simply entering her husband’s home, adamantly declaring that Mr. L was her husband. She elaborated a story about how much the two of them loved each other, when they got married, and how she was currently pregnant with his child. In actuality, Mr. L used to be Mrs. K’s boss, and had fired her because of her inappropriate romantic advances several years prior. Mrs. K was married to another man in Florida, with whom she denied any relationship, stating that she was kidnapped for 4 years, and after escaping, had come to California to be with her husband, Mr. L. Mrs. K was diagnosed with delusional disorder, erotomanic type, and was started on risperidone.

I wonder if they would be neutral about Dorje Shugden after the medications.