The rise of Karmapa, good news for Shugden?

[Namdrol]

Read this quote for the article "Recent appearances with the Dalai Lama notably during a visit to Washington last year have fuelled speculation that he is being groomed as the Nobel peace laureate's spiritual successor." (full article: http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/asia/313693/tibet-situation-tragic-says-potential-next-dalai-lama)

Also, Dalai lama hinted that his successor would don the role of only a religious leader for Tibetans and not a political one (http://tibet.net/2012/09/12/dalai-lama-hints-successor-wont-have-political-role/)
 
Really??? Could it be good news for Shugden practitioners because the 16th Karmapa was pro-shugden (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/karmapa/), so if the 17th Karmapa Urgyen Trinley is really the reincarnation of this 16th Karmapa, then it completes his prophecy that "in the future you will definitely need to rely on this deity"

[Tammy]

Thanks Namdrol for sharing this 'juicy' news !!! No matter how HHDL plots to pass the baton of spiritual leader to Kamarpa or whoever he so chosen, I just do not unerstand:

- if karmapa takes over the throne of spiritual leader for the people of Tibet, then what happen to the current HHDL's next reincarnation ? Is he going to be the 15th Dalai Lama? Or the lineage of HHDL would stop?

- how sure are we that, once he is in the position of 'calling the shot', Kamarpa would unlifqt the DS ban

[Big Uncle]

It is interesting to read about the Karmapa and it comes as no surprise considering that the Dalai Lama has been grooming him for many years now. Whatever plans that the Dalai Lama has, it is definitely towards appointing a worthy successor.

The interesting point is that the previous Karmapa has favourable views of Dorje Shugden and even prophesied that he will be widely practiced by everyone. I do hope that this prophecy will come to pass and it looks like it will the Karmapa himself that will most likely fulfill this prophecy. I believe he will be the agent of change that will dissolve the ban on Dorje Shugden.

It's interesting that a Karma Kagyu High Lama would be the one to do this. However, I do recall that the previous Karmapa was a good friend of the previous Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche. So, there's some sort of affiliation with the lineage here.

[WisdomBeing]

According to the lineage of incarnations as published on HH Trijang Rinpoche’s website (http://www.tbiusa.org/trijangdorjechang/biography/incarnations), it states that Trijang Rinpoche was previously the Eighth Karmapa Mikyo Dorje (1507–1554), who was the head of the Karma Kagyu school. Mikyo Dorje was said to be a very great master, famous as much for his erudition as for his practice.

Since Trijang Rinpoche was a Karmapa in his previous incarnation, then there must be a close affinity between Dorje Shugden and the Karmapa lineage. It is definitely something very optimistic if the 17th Karmapa is openly supportive of Dorje Shugden and becomes the next spiritual leader of the Tibetan diaspora.

[diablo1974]

Logically, if the 17th karmapa is the reincarnates of the 16th Karmapa, then she should also be pro-Shugden. I am wondering if he will spread DS lineage himself in the kagyud community? How would HH DL reactes about this?   I do not think HH DL will make his comments toward 17th karmapa pro shugden (if there is) as it doesnt looks 'good'  to the public/press media.

[vajralight]

The Karmapa will NEVER go against the Dalai Lama's wishes , otherwise he can kiss his Dharma career goodbye. I'd like to be positive too but lets' not be naive.

Vajra


 

[yontenjamyang]

The Karmapa will NEVER go against the Dalai Lama's wishes , otherwise he can kiss his Dharma career goodbye. I'd like to be positive too but lets' not be naive.

Vajra

Vajralight. True, only while the Dalai Lama is still alive. Well even the Dalai Lama doesn't live forever. Forgive me in saying that. Read the article clearly. It also mentioned a "big picture" theory which I truly believe in. If that is true then, it is a second refute to your comment. This being the Dalai Lama wants the Rime to work and used the protector as the scapegoat. Only a leader from another sect can make a decision to lift the ban without causing further issues. Very clear and clean. Everybody wins. Once Rime is achieved, there is no reason to have the ban.

On another note, I find the article very convincing and is certainly a strong possibility. It is almost a dream comes true scenario. The possibility of the Dalai Lama not taking a new incarnation (or an official one) is high because of the Chinese issue. Tibet needs a new leader and I find the Karmapa a very likely and natural choice. More so because the Karmapa is not of the Gelug sect. Very convenient and will likely have a happy ending! (so to say)

Well the forum/website really did a lot of research and comes up with fantastic articles that is neutral and well written. I must say I am surprise about the premise of a non Gelug leader taking over from the Dalai Lama. Even though I heard about this Karmapa taking over story, this website really nailed it down very well.

Keep it up Dorje Shugden.com. You guys are great!

[beggar]

Namdrol
Looks like the folks at this website have picked up on your article and have written their own opinion piece. Have you seen? Check it out there - there are some good theories about the change in leadership and why the Dalai lama might be taking this new route. A good cheeky title too, these folks are brazen LOL

Will the Karmapa save Dorje Shugden:
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/will-the-karmapa-save-dorje-shugden/


 

[Ensapa]

there is another poser here: which Karmapa will be the one that will take over HHDL's role? Orgyen Trinley or Thaye Dorje? And how will we know which Karmapa will support Dorje Shugden or continue on with the ban? Orgyen Trinley has been quite low key with the media for a while now, and so has Thaye Dorje, although Thaye Dorje has declared his 'support' for Dorje Shugden, he cannot show it openly at this time. In any case, the most probable candidate to take over the Dalai Lama would be Orgyen Trinley although many seem to see him as the fake Karmapa. To me, both are real and valid Karmapas as they could be different emanations, recognized as the same title to achieve certain goals that are required to teach and transform the people of today. Perhaps, Orgyen Trinley will be the political head of the Tibetans while Thaye Dorje perform the deeds of the 16th Karmapa, and in the end they will both declare their support for Dorje Shugden and when that happens, all those who was so opposed to Dorje Shugden would regret their actions and they would be shamed and embarrassed. It would be very interesting to see how they would react when the time comes, and it would be a very painful lesson for them to not get political in any way or form, and perhaps, that is the biggest lesson that the Dalai Lama will give to the world.

So lets not end up like them and focus on what our Gurus and Lineage Gurus have taught us

[DharmaSpace]

The 16th Karmapa has expressed one day many people will propitiate Dorje Shugden in the previous we can see clearly Karmapa's view on Dorje Shudgen.
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1809.msg25133#msg25133

Karmapa was the first incarnate lama who have shown the power of coming back with control, this shows that the current Karmapa is no ordinary being. The lineage of incarnation of the Karmapa is even older than the Dalai Lama's so if anyone were to bear the mantle of the spiritual head of tibet the Karmapa is sufficiently qualified. Maybe the Karmapa can set a precedent, and the spiritual head of Tibet can rotate amongst the four schools that might be interesting.   

[Ensapa]

The 16th Karmapa has expressed one day many people will propitiate Dorje Shugden in the previous we can see clearly Karmapa's view on Dorje Shudgen.
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1809.msg25133#msg25133

Karmapa was the first incarnate lama who have shown the power of coming back with control, this shows that the current Karmapa is no ordinary being. The lineage of incarnation of the Karmapa is even older than the Dalai Lama's so if anyone were to bear the mantle of the spiritual head of tibet the Karmapa is sufficiently qualified. Maybe the Karmapa can set a precedent, and the spiritual head of Tibet can rotate amongst the four schools that might be interesting.

The Karmapa was the secular leader of Tibet before the Dalai Lama took over and for quite sometime, the Kagyus and Gelugs were at odds. Before the Gelugs came into power, the Kagyus suppressed the Gelugs and the Sharmapa took over the Monlam Chenmo, something that was started by Tsongkhapa and traditionally done by the Gelugs instead. During this period, many Gelugpa monasteries were suppressed due to the difference in tradition and this is no secret at all. When the Gelugs came into power, karma came back at the Kagyus and some scholars choose to believe that due to this, Gelug was sectarian and forgot entirely what the kagyus did to the Gelugs prior to this. With that said, if anything happens to HHDL, the next in line would be the Kagyus. HHDL has stated that he no longer wishes to be the leader of the Tibetans and so we must respect his wishes. It is only natural for the Karmapa to take up the throne of Tibet again, after a 350 year old void and by then there is no need to suppress any tradition as they have already been strongly grounded throughout the world.

[beggar]

There's a good comment on the article "Will the Karmapa save Dorje Shugden" from a reader called Margaret :

good theory.
I think it will be hard for anyone to have the same influence as the Dalai Lama. maybe that is a good thing though. There needs to be a drastic shift in power. the tibetans are probably too dependent on the Dalai Lama which becomes very difficult in a religious situation. It’s quite contradictory to the Dharma, which teaches us to be independent and not to rely on worldly powers and people. So maybe replacing the dalai lama is what is needed at this time for the tibetans to progress.

.. which brings up a good point: the other paradox that Tibetans often face is that the spiritual leadership of their community could inadvertently restrict them from pursuing real spiritual practice. In this case, the spiritual leadership of the Dalai Lama and his respective policies and bans (such as against Dorje Shugden) are precisely what hinder people from practicing to the fullest extent. Practitioners are faced with the dilemma: follow the advice of their spiritual teacher, or follow the advice of the Dalai Lama. In many cases, this is not a real choice, but a forced one. Following the advice of the spiritual teacher could mean that outwardly it seems to be not following the Dalai Lama, or considered betrayal, not in support of the Tibetan cause etc. This is clear in the cause of the Dorje Shugden ban, of course. Does one continue the practice because it was given to them by their teachers? Or does one abandon it because to keep the practice is tantamount to betraying the Dalai Lama, and risks getting cut off from all welfare, community support etc.

There becomes a dependence on the spiritual leader (though not necessarily the spiritual teacher) which makes it difficult to develop the independence that is encouraged in the teachings - i.e. to be able to question, to debate and for each individual to pursue a distinctly individual and different path unique to them.

Indeed, having a leader less charismatic and influential than the Dalai Lama (and let's face it, there really aren't many people who could be as influential than the Dalai Lama), could be what is most needed in the Tibetan community now. With less of an influence from the spiritual sphere, then it may be easier for the Tibetans to finally carve a clearer distinction between the secular and spiritual, a much needed remedy to the current Tibetan situation.

[WisdomBeing]

I was reading that article http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/will-the-karmapa-save-dorje-shugden/ and it says:

So far, in this incarnation, the three separately recognised incarnations of the Karmapa have not been widely known to comment negatively on the practice Dorje Shugden nor to disparage any practitioners of the Shugden. Might he be keeping a deliberately low profile for a time when he does assume power and can do something about the situation?

I knew there were two incarnations - Orgyen Trinley and/or Thaye Dorje. Who is the third one?

Anyway, aside from that, i like that particular article because it raises the most logical and optimistic point that i have read, which is that the Karmapa could lift the Dorje Shugden ban because he is from a different Tibetan school and thus could not be seen to be suppressing another sect (Gelug).

That is the most powerful argument for the Karmapa to remove the ban, regardless of whether the 16th Karmapa was supportive of Dorje Shugden. After all, the 5th Dalai Lama was supportive of Dorje Shugden and look at what the 14th Dalai Lama is doing! Anyway, let’s see how the succession of the Dalai Lama’s role plays out. I just hope it’s fast!

[Ensapa]

I was reading that article http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/will-the-karmapa-save-dorje-shugden/ and it says:

So far, in this incarnation, the three separately recognised incarnations of the Karmapa have not been widely known to comment negatively on the practice Dorje Shugden nor to disparage any practitioners of the Shugden. Might he be keeping a deliberately low profile for a time when he does assume power and can do something about the situation?

I knew there were two incarnations - Orgyen Trinley and/or Thaye Dorje. Who is the third one?

Anyway, aside from that, i like that particular article because it raises the most logical and optimistic point that i have read, which is that the Karmapa could lift the Dorje Shugden ban because he is from a different Tibetan school and thus could not be seen to be suppressing another sect (Gelug).

That is the most powerful argument for the Karmapa to remove the ban, regardless of whether the 16th Karmapa was supportive of Dorje Shugden. After all, the 5th Dalai Lama was supportive of Dorje Shugden and look at what the 14th Dalai Lama is doing! Anyway, let’s see how the succession of the Dalai Lama’s role plays out. I just hope it’s fast!

This is the 3rd claimant for the Karmapa title. He was apparently born before the 16th Karmapa passed away.

After cash, Karmapa faces new controversy in contender
Submitted by admin3 on 25 April 2011 - 3:42pm
India News
By Sudeshna Sarkar, IANS,

Kathmandu: The Karmapa, the head of one of the four sects of Tibetan Buddhists, who has just survived a controversy over large amounts of foreign and Indian currency found in his monastery in India's Himachal Pradesh, now faces a third contender to the spiritual title.

Sikkim-born Dawa Sangpo Dorje is the third contender for the spiritual title, and at a press conference in Kathmandu Monday asserted that Ogyen Trinley Dorje was not the rightful reincarnation of the Karmapa, Tibetan spiritual leader Dusum Khyenpa who died in 1193 AD. Ogyen Trinley Dorje is the monk recognised by the Tibetan government in exile in India and the Dalai Lama.

Since Dusum Khyenpa's death, the Karma Kagyu sect of Tibetan Buddhists believes he was born 16 times more, in keeping with the Tibetan tradition of reincarnation of spiritual leaders with supernatural powers.

However, after the death of the 16th Karmapa - Rangjung Rigoe Dorje - in 1981, different groups put up different candidates for the post of the 17th Karmapa.

The Dalai Lama-recognised Ogyen's claim has been challenged by Trinley Thaye Dorje, a 28-year-old who like Ogyen, was born in Tibet and escaped to India.

Dawa Sangpo, the third challenger, was born in north Sikkim, making him the first India-born contender for the title.

The 34-year-old, who has a fan following in Sikkim, started a renewed campaign in the Indian state this year to claim the disputed title.

The Sikkim Karmapa Committee, formed to push his claim, is also demanding that the Rumtek monastery in Sikkimese capital Gangtok, which was barred to all Karmapa claimants after the ownership tussle, be opened to Dawa Sangpo.

"I am ready to undergo examinations to prove my claim," Dawa Sangpo said in his Kathmandu press conference Monday.

"I am ready to undergo scientific and traditional examinations as well as one for testing supernatural powers," he added.

He also said it was a mistake to recognise Ogyen as the 17th Karmapa. His followers are saying Ogyen's image was tarnished by the controversy that erupted in India this year following the raids on his monastery and suspicions that he could be a Chinese spy as a large amount of the Chinese yuan currency was found during the raids.

Ogyen maintained the money was donated by devotees and the Indian authorities, after subsequent investigations, gave him a clean chit.

Dont think he's the real one, but oh well.

For some reason, I have a feeling that HHDL will lift the ban and even if he does not, the Karmapa, the real one, will. The real one will make efforts to reconnect with Trijang Rinpoche. Let's see....

[Big Uncle]

Another reason why the Karmapa would accept Dorje Shugden. Many years ago, the 16th Karmapa Rangjung Rigpe Dorje (the previous incarnation) was on a pilgrimage in Nepal and he stopped by Ugyen Rinpoche’s new monastery. At that time, the Nepalese king and queen were present and they came out to greet him with a white scarf (khata).  When he entered the monastery, he came across a statue of Guru Dragpo trampling on Dorje Shugden. The Karmapa stood in the presence of this statue for a while.

Then, he pointed his finger at it and asked, “Who is the person who commissioned this statue? This isn’t Nyingma or Sakya and certainly it is not Gelug or Kagyu either. I have never requested it to be made. This is not one of the deities you can rely on.”

“Although the time is a little early but in the future, you will definitely need to rely on this deity.” Out of all the abbots and master present, not a single one came forward to acknowledge.  The Karmapa then said “Remove this now!” Immediately, a person with an axe and shovel came forward to remove the statue. Many of the Lamas present at that time will definitely remember this incident. A seventy-five year old man from Chamdo called Samcho witness this incident and this was recorded in Kyabje Dagom Rinpoche’s Sungbum.