Meditate in caves is the RIGHT WAY???

[DS Star]

Lord Atisha, in his advice to Jangchub Ö, clearly stated that THE WAY for attainment is to avoid worldly amusements.

"Until you attain stable realizations, worldly amusements are harmful, therefore abide in a place where there are no such distractions."

Read the full advice from this article :
http://kadampa.org/buddhism/advice-from-atisha/

Seems in our modern world today there is no way we can avoid worldly amusement, except if we go to meditate in the caves...

Question: Do we really have to leave everything behind like the Buddha when was a prince?

[DSFriend]

Yes, renunciation is necessary. If our hands are full, we will not be able to carry anything else. At this point, what we are carrying and hold on to with our dear lives are worthless pebbles, leaving no room to carry anything else even if they are gold or diamonds. We need to let go of the pebbles, then our hands are free to receive something else of greater value.

However, without proper understanding, nobody will let go of their pebbles because that's all we have and know of. Therefore, letting go seem an impossible thing to do with a great sense of loss.

[Positive Change]

Renunciation or practicing non attachment is really, I find, a state of mind. Sure, if we could shave our heads and track off into the mountains to meditate, we would certainly have made the choice to "leave" the distractions aside. However, do those attachments or distractions really go away even if we avoid it? It may seem easier to ignore but if we have not "given it up" in our minds, our concentration would be severely muddled.

Hence would it not be plausible that we should indeed meditate on renunciation within our minds and from there even with all the "distractions", we are able to continue our practice. Sure... it is easier said than done but I feel, it is a far better way than "escapism" and trying to renounce by way of avoidance!

[yontenjamyang]

I attached the "Advise from Atisha's Heart"in its entirety below:

Advice from Atisha’s Heart

When Venerable Atisha came to Tibet he first went to Ngari, where he remained for two years giving many teachings to the disciples of Jangchub Ö.

After two years had passed he decided to return to India, and Jangchub Ö requested him to give one last teaching before he left.

Atisha replied that he had already given them all the advice they needed, but Jangchub Ö persisted in his request and so Atisha accepted and gave the following advice.

How wonderful!

Friends, since you already have great knowledge and clear understanding, whereas I am of no importance and have little wisdom, it is not suitable for you to request advice from me. However because you dear friends, whom I cherish from my heart, have requested me, I shall give you this essential advice from my inferior and childish mind.

Friends, until you attain enlightenment the Spiritual Teacher is indispensable, therefore rely upon the holy Spiritual Guide.

Until you realize ultimate truth, listening is indispensable, therefore listen to the instructions of the Spiritual Guide.

Since you cannot become a Buddha merely by understanding Dharma, practise earnestly with understanding.

Avoid places that disturb your mind, and always remain where your virtues increase.

Until you attain stable realizations, worldly amusements are harmful, therefore abide in a place where there are no such distractions.

Avoid friends who cause you to increase delusions, and rely upon those who increase your virtue. This you should take to heart.

Since there is never a time when worldly activities come to an end, limit your activities.

Dedicate your virtues throughout the day and the night, and always watch your mind.

Because you have received advice, whenever you are not meditating always practise in accordance with what your Spiritual Guide says.

If you practise with great devotion, results will arise immediately, without your having to wait for a long time.

If from your heart you practise in accordance with Dharma, both food and resources will come naturally to hand.

Friends, the things you desire give no more satisfaction than drinking sea water, therefore practise contentment.

Avoid all haughty, conceited, proud, and arrogant minds, and remain peaceful and subdued.

Avoid activities that are said to be meritorious, but which in fact are obstacles to Dharma.

Profit and respect are nooses of the maras, so brush them aside like stones on the path.

Words of praise and fame serve only to beguile us, therefore blow them away as you would blow your nose.

Since the happiness, pleasure, and friends you gather in this life last only for a moment, put them all behind you.

Since future lives last for a very long time, gather up riches to provide for the future.

You will have to depart leaving everything behind, so do not be attached to anything.

Generate compassion for lowly beings, and especially avoid despising or humiliating them.

Have no hatred for enemies, and no attachment for friends.

Do not be jealous of others’ good qualities, but out of admiration adopt them yourself.

Do not look for faults in others, but look for faults in yourself, and purge them like bad blood.

Do not contemplate your own good qualities, but contemplate the good qualities of others, and respect everyone as a servant would.

See all living beings as your father or mother, and love them as if you were their child.

Always keep a smiling face and a loving mind, and speak truthfully without malice.

If you talk too much with little meaning you will make mistakes, therefore speak in moderation, only when necessary.

If you engage in many meaningless activities your virtuous activities will degenerate, therefore stop activities that are not spiritual.

It is completely meaningless to put effort into activities that have no essence.

If the things you desire do not come it is due to karma created long ago, therefore keep a happy and relaxed mind.

Beware, offending a holy being is worse than dying, therefore be honest and straightforward.

Since all the happiness and suffering of this life arise from previous actions, do not blame others.

All happiness comes from the blessings of your Spiritual Guide, therefore always repay his kindness.

Since you cannot tame the minds of others until you have tamed your own, begin by taming your own mind.

Since you will definitely have to depart without the wealth you have accumulated, do not accumulate negativity for the sake of wealth.

Distracting enjoyments have no essence, therefore sincerely practise giving.

Always keep pure moral discipline for it leads to beauty in this life and happiness hereafter.

Since hatred is rife in these impure times, don the armour of patience, free from anger.

You remain in samsara through the power of laziness, therefore ignite the fire of the effort of application.

Since this human life is wasted by indulging in distractions, now is the time to practise concentration.

Being under the influence of wrong views you do not realize the ultimate nature of things, therefore investigate correct meanings.

Friends, there is no happiness in this swamp of samsara, so move to the firm ground of liberation.

Meditate according to the advice of your Spiritual Guide and dry up the river of samsaric suffering.

You should consider this well because it is not just words from the mouth, but sincere advice from the heart.

If you practise like this you will delight me, and you will bring happiness to yourself and others.

I who am ignorant request you to take this advice to heart.

This is the advice that the holy being Venerable Atisha gave to Venerable Jang Chub Ö.

Note that the fiirst advise is as follows:

Friends, until you attain enlightenment the Spiritual Teacher is indispensable, therefore rely upon the holy Spiritual Guide.

Until you realize ultimate truth, listening is indispensable, therefore listen to the instructions of the Spiritual Guide.


So I take it that it is through the reliance on the Guru that one attain Enlightenment. Listening to  the advice of the Guru is essential.

Further;

Since you cannot become a Buddha merely by understanding Dharma, practise earnestly with understanding.

Avoid places that disturb your mind, and always remain where your virtues increase.

Since, the Guru teaches the Dharma by body, speech and mind, always follow the Guru whether it is from his body, speech or mind. We need to focus on that. Everything else disturbs our mind. Always follow the Guru where our virtues increase.

Then comes the quote of this topic:

Until you attain stable realizations, worldly amusements are harmful, therefore abide in a place where there are no such distractions.

For me, just follow the Guru and have faith. If one does that worldly amusements that are harmful, will not harm us. Everything we do from the Guru's instruction is virtues. Even in amusement we are renounced. The place Atisha mentioned is not necessarily physical but more in the mind. If we are in a cave, our mind should be in the cave. If our mind outside in the world but we are physically in the cave, then what is the point?

My opinion is that we do not need meditate in the caves......unless the Guru instruct us to.

[Manjushri]

Good point, Yonten Jamyang. I do not think that the caves are the only way for us to practise. Since Buddhism is about helping others as well, meditating in the caves alone for attainments would serve no benefit for all beings unless the attainments that you garner would benefit others in another way.

Worldly amusements are always present, and I feel that abiding in a place where there is no distractions to these worldy amusements would be like hiding away from reality. For today's people, I think it is easier to spread Dharma and practise facing worldly attachments as that is what is causing all people to suffer still in Samsara, including myself. Therefore, having mental strength would be the best way to tackle worldly attachments and enhance one's practise.

If we need a cave to meditate to gain attainments, then beings like Milarepa who spent years serving his guru and finally gaining attainments would not be successful. Attainments can be gained in many ways, not only from shunning wordly distractions and going into the caves. Guru devotion would be a core fundament to developing attainments.

[Tenzin K]

Buddhism is not a religion of despair, but of hope and freedom. The teaching of the buddha are very optimistic about ending suffering. There is a misconception among many non-buddhist that Buddhism is all about suffering and personal scarifies. It is true, externally that is how a monk's life looks to be to the general public.
Leaving everything behind and going out all alone to spend time in contemplation and mindfulness, begging for alms and holding on to nothing. A very tough life indeed!

The fact that Buddhism offers a permanent solution to the external problem of earthly suffering. The teachings of the Buddha show us the way out of suffering, and gives us the hope that suffering can be overcome eventually by controlling ones cravings and leading a virtuous life as dedicated by the principles of the noble itself. The eigthfold path is not difficult to practice. It is not prescribed for the monks alone, but for people of all ages, backgrounds and temperaments.

Suffering ends when craving ends. It ceases to exist, only when the beings achieve complete liberation from it. The seeds of this reserve process are shown when a monk or a follower of the Buddha becomes aware of the impermanent and distasteful nature of the word and its object.

[pgdharma]

Meditation is a conscious effort to change how the mind works. No matter how much we may wish to be good, if we cannot change the desires that make us act the way we do, change will be difficult. For example, a person may realize that he is impatient with his wife and he may promise himself: "From now on I am not going to be so impatient." But an hour later he may be shouting at his wife simply because, impatience has arisen without him knowing. Meditation helps to develop the awareness and the energy needed to transform ingrained mental habit patterns. The mind, when properly developed, is a very powerful instrument. If we can learn to focus our mental energy and project it towards others, it can have an effect on other.

Buddhism is about transforming our mind, to cut off self cherishing thoughts and be of benefit to others. If we meditate in the cave for years, we may have attainments, but if we do not come out from the caves we will not benefit others. There are many ways to achieve attainments besides meditating in caves. Another alternative is to have Guru Devotion and serving one’s Guru.

[Jessie Fong]

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/238093.php

A new brain imaging study led by researchers at Yale University shows how people who regularly practise meditation are able to switch off areas of the brain linked to daydreaming, anxiety, schizophrenia and other psychiatric disorders. The brains of experienced meditators appear to show less activity in an area known as the "default mode network", which is linked to largely self-centred thinking. The researchers suggest through monitoring and suppressing or "tuning out" the "me" thoughts, meditators develop a new default mode, which is more present-centred.

the study goes on to state : Meditation has been a central part of philosophical and contemplative practices for thousands of years: it helps the practitioner to be mindful of the present moment, Brewer told the press, and studies have shown it is also linked to increased levels of happiness.

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If meditation in the caves is the right way, then almost everyone would be running to the countryside looking for caves.  In this world of so much stress, we need to "tune" out; to tame our monkey minds and increase our level of concentration.

Meditating in the caves helps the practitioner to "shut" himself off due to less/no interfearance from the outside world.  But then again, is it not the self that matters, not the place of meditation?

[dondrup]

Every day our six sense doors are bombarded with multitudes of ever-changing sight, sound, smell, taste and touch.  Ignorantly we go after these stimulants thinking that they will bring us the happiness that we want.  These stimulants are illusory in nature.  They are constantly changing.  They are impermanent.  In short they do not give us the happiness we long for. 

Our minds are always deceived by our own perceptions and delusions.  We will continue to chase for these objects of the six sense doors.  Unless we are in total control of our six sense doors, we are at the mercy of the objects and will become the slaves of the eight worldly concerns or dharmas.

Lord Atisha is not telling us to abandon our worldly responsibilities, he is advising us to develop our concentration in the places where there are less distractions.  Meditating in the caves is a way to stay away from many distractions in samsara.  There are less chances of getting distracted by worldly amusements meditating in the caves.  However, we can still be distracted meditating in the caves if our mind is not focused and is distracted! 

The development of concentration is important because when our mind is focused and can concentrate on the object of our meditation, we can then develop wisdom.  With wisdom we can then understand the nature of all phenomena and free ourselves from sufferings.  Next we can proceed to liberate ourselves from samsara and to accomplish enlightenment.

[RedLantern]

Just because one studies books on meditation or meditate everyday,makes one a better ,happier or more spiritual person.In fact our practice could be just another form of materialism;spiritual materialism as Chogyam Trungpa calls it. We could practice meditation because we can appear more wiser,cooler and more special than anyone else.
The true test is to be aware ourselves of being kinder and more helpful to others and to feel the by product of that......happiness.
Traditional meditation encourages us to develop mindfulness,focus,stillness and most importantly love.If you find a cave to meditate in ,make sure that what you do in it that cave will prepare you to love everyone,your family,friends and even your enemies.

[DS Star]

...Our minds are always deceived by our own perceptions and delusions.  We will continue to chase for these objects of the six sense doors.  Unless we are in total control of our six sense doors, we are at the mercy of the objects and will become the slaves of the eight worldly concerns or dharmas.

Lord Atisha is not telling us to abandon our worldly responsibilities, he is advising us to develop our concentration in the places where there are less distractions.  Meditating in the caves is a way to stay away from many distractions in samsara.  There are less chances of getting distracted by worldly amusements meditating in the caves.  However, we can still be distracted meditating in the caves if our mind is not focused and is distracted! 

The development of concentration is important because when our mind is focused and can concentrate on the object of our meditation, we can then develop wisdom.  With wisdom we can then understand the nature of all phenomena and free ourselves from sufferings.  Next we can proceed to liberate ourselves from samsara and to accomplish enlightenment.

Rightly said Dondrup; cave may provide a better environment to avoid worldly distractions but it is not entirely depending on the outer conditions, the inner distraction from our tricky mind is equally challenging and 'harmful' to the practice of concentration.

Yes "wisdom" is very important as only through perfect wisdom of understanding the true nature of things that we can attain Enlightenment.

[buddhalovely]

After being initiated you will know how to meditate while living, and not to run away from the world. You will integrate this great cosmic power into your daily activities, as well as when you are meditating. You will accumulate it a little more consciously and dispatch it during your life, to benefit our world. Otherwise, there is no use to just meditate, and bless only yourself. Actually, when we know ourselves, we can bless the whole world. And after we are initiated and are enlightened, in whatever we do there will be a deeper meaning than just the surface physical work, and we will be having joy in doing our things, and not just doing our duty like before. And we will be able to contribute more and more, with less work.

[vajratruth]

Lord Atisha is not telling us to abandon our worldly responsibilities, he is advising us to develop our concentration in the places where there are less distractions.  Meditating in the caves is a way to stay away from many distractions in samsara.  There are less chances of getting distracted by worldly amusements meditating in the caves.  However, we can still be distracted meditating in the caves if our mind is not focused and is distracted! 

The development of concentration is important because when our mind is focused and can concentrate on the object of our meditation, we can then develop wisdom.  With wisdom we can then understand the nature of all phenomena and free ourselves from sufferings.  Next we can proceed to liberate ourselves from samsara and to accomplish enlightenment.

Very well said Dondrup.

I agree that when we first begin our practice it makes sense to have as conducive an environment as possible - one where our distractions are less. However, ultimately we cannot impose conditions to a true practice as the mind must remain constant in any environment.

There is a quote which I like, which I think applies here:

“A low practitioner does retreat in the forest, a high practitioner does retreat in the cities. A practitioner who moves away from the cities to do practice in the quiet and remote forest is only a low level practitioner; a high practitioner can do his practice amidst all the physical pollution and human complications of a city, he excels in that kind of environment, like a peacock who thrives on eating poisonous plants, He, is the real Master".

That is not to say that those who meditate in caves are "low practitioners" but the point being made here is that the strength and mettle of one's spiritual practice must be able to withstand the test of impurities and where better to do that than where sinful distractions are in abundance. Having said that, there is much wisdom in Lord Atisha's advise, that is to remove as much distractions as possible UNTIL one gains certain realizations.

[Tammy]

[quote author=dondrup link=topic=2758.msg36576#msg36576 date

“A low practitioner does retreat in the forest, a high practitioner does retreat in the cities. A practitioner who moves away from the cities to do practice in the quiet and remote forest is only a low level practitioner; a high practitioner can do his practice amidst all the physical pollution and human complications of a city, he excels in that kind of environment, like a peacock who thrives on eating poisonous plants, He, is the real Master".

That is not to say that those who meditate in caves are "low practitioners" but the point being made here is that the strength and mettle of one's spiritual practice must be able to withstand the test of impurities and where better to do that than where sinful distractions are in abundance. Having said that, there is much wisdom in Lord Atisha's advise, that is to remove as much distractions as possible UNTIL one gains certain realizations.

Well said Vajratruth and I always like this quote, the practitioners who have the will power to face distractions and yet not attracted or attached by them are much stronger, spiritually, then those who choose to hide away from them instead of facing them and overcome the attachment and greed.

[hope rainbow]

Renunciation is not the renunciation of worldly things, it is the renunciation of the mind of ours that is the cause for us to make them worldly.

The same action generated by different minds can be either worldly or heavenly.
The motivation and the result have more weight than the action.